“The future is certain, it is the past that is unpredictable” – Evita Bezuidenhout
I have been fascinated by the recent spat between Justice Malala and Pallo Jordan (later joined by an unnamed writer on the ANC Today website and by the former editor of an ANC underground publication Paul Trewhela), ostensibly about media freedom in South Africa but to a large degree about South Africa’s recent past and the role of the ANC in the liberation of the country.
Jordan lambasted Malala for his columns that have been sharply critical of the ANC, arguing that hundreds of ANC members sacrificed their youth to fight for freedom, before concluding:
Thanks to their efforts, today Malala enjoys the freedom to insult them with impunity in wordy, self-righteous columns in The Times, certain that he won’t spend that night in prison.
Malala shot back that he was not at all sure that he would not spend the night in jail. He pointed to an article by ANC veteran Oyama Mabandla published in African Affairs in 1990, which argued that: “large chunks of the ANC hates free speech and hates people who speak truth to power. Which is why this same ANC – that Jordan claims fought for me – arrested and detained him for six weeks in 1983″. Malala continued:
The ANC’s useful idiots arrogantly claim that “it was the ANC” that fought to give us our freedom. Rubbish! While the ANC was detaining the likes of Jordan or torturing young women in its camps, it was people like my young friends and relatives who were, under the banner of the Mass Democratic Movement, rendering the apartheid state unworkable. It was Desmond Tutu who led me and other young students to the beaches of Cape Town to defy apartheid laws.
These and later exchanges do not only highlight the fact that our history is highly contested, but also how important it is for the protagonists that their version of our history becomes the officially accepted one. The longer the ANC stays in power and the more the party is plagued by “the sins of incumbency”, the more important it becomes for the ANC that it is seen as the sole liberator of South Africa. But the more the ANC pushes for the uncritical acceptance of this “official” version of our history which places the ANC at the centre of our liberation, the more other voices will be raised to contest this version in an effort to undermine the moral authority and legitimacy of the governing party.
I am not sure either Jordan’s or Malala’s version of our history tells the whole story. Although we all have a tendency to want to fit all past events into one unified and easily digestible meaning-giving story with good guys on the one side and bad guys on the other, and with this or that leader or organisation playing a decisive role, history is usually a far more complicated and messy affair. We usually make sense of past events by ignoring those events that do not fit into our preferred story and by highlighting those events that do conform to what we believe happened and which serve our own interests.
There is no objective past, because there is no objective human being. We choose the version of our history that suits our ideological commitments, our emotional disposition and our political aims. Thus the apartheid regime told South Africa’s history in a way that reinforced and celebrated the centrality of Afrikaner Nationalism in our history in an effort to justify its rule and its enforcement of apartheid. And the history taught in the United Kingdom largely glosses over the rather problematic aspects of its colonial past, while those of us who were colonised might insist that our history highlights the injustices of colonialism.
Be that as it may, the exchange is interesting for at least two other reasons. First, it reminds us of how important our sense of history is for our understanding of the present and for the future direction of our country.
In George Orwell’s novel, 1984, the motto of the Ministry of Information proclaimed that: ”He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past.” As I understand it, Orwell wanted to warn us against the power of a totalitarian state to control how citizens think.
But this motto has some relevance even for people living in a democratic state. Is it not true that even in a democratic country, the powerful and influential in a society (the government, the media, the military, big business), get to decide what the official and sot accepted version of our history is? And, of course, this is important because our view of history – what events we choose to focus on and what events are ignored – shapes our response to that history, and hense our future.
History is then, to some degree, about control over the imagination and the beliefs and political views of the population. No wonder the ANC wants to promote the version of history in which it alone liberated South Africa from the evil apartheid regime.
Given the fact that the ANC did play a pivotal role in isolating the apartheid state diplomatically and economically and given the fact that Nelson Mandela will probably always have a firm grip on our imagination as the father of our democracy, I do not have too much of a problem with this aspect of the romanticised version of our history presented by the ANC. Every country has a founding myth, and ours at least has a leader who is revered and loved all over the world. We could have done worse with the founding myth of our democracy.
From a constitutional perspective, the second aspect of this debate is more worrying. When some ANC leaders now say that they “gave us our freedom” (usually implying that because they gave us our freedom they should be trusted not to take away that freedom), they present a shockingly paternalistic and somewhat authoritarian attitude towards the people of the country. This view also implies that rights do not belong to people who enjoy them merely because they are human beings with an intrinsic moral worth, but that rights are held by organisations or governments and can therefore be “given” (and also taken away) by such organisations or governments.
Ordinary human beings do not feature in this version of our history. The struggles of the millions of people who resisted the apartheid regime and fought for freedom are all subsumed under the banner of one organisation – as if all of us ordinary people played no role in our own liberation but was liberated by a single organisation while we passively looked on, as if we were all mere robots following ANC instructions from Lusaka.
This turns all citizens into the passive recipients of freedoms and rights, bestowed on them by a benevolent father. It turns us all into children who have no say in our destiny, no agency of our own, no inherent right to decide for ourselves who we are, what rights we want to safeguard and how we want to live our lives and organise our society.
Like small children we are expected to entrust our lives and our future to our father who will look after us and keep us safe – as long as we obey him and do not question his authority.
But in a constitutional state, rights and freedoms cannot be given and cannot be held by one organisation or by the government or the state, and neither can it be taken away by that organisation, the government or the state. These rights and freedoms belong to all of us. We the people hold these rights and freedoms merely because we are human beings with an inherent human dignity. A particular organisation (or, more likely, different organisations) may have helped us to claim our inherent rights and to make them real, but this does not make these organisation the custodians of our rights.
We are the custodians of the rights and freedoms now enshrined in the Constitution. As these custodians, we are not passive citizens who must wait for the government to grant us our rights. Instead, we are active citizens with the right to demand that whomever governs us does so in a manner that respects and protects our rights and freedoms. If the government of the day fails to protect and advance our rights, we have a duty to ensure that they do protect and advance our rights. If they do not, we are free to take action – within the limits of the law – to ensure that our inherent right to dignity and freedom remains respected and protected.
[...] on the arguments around the ANC’s drive to make their view of history the official version http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/the-past-is-unpredictable/ Tags: ANC, Political commentary, South African History You can follow any responses to this [...]
the problem with Justice Malala is that he lack self esteem, and for that reason he will do anything to get praise from rightwing groups, i will not be shocked if i were to find out that he is a member of afriforum,not long time before the world cup he said that world cup should taken to australia and mr Blatter was shocked with the overall negativity of south african media towards their own country.
@ Kenneth
“mr Blatter was shocked with the overall negativity of south africans”
Kenneth is right.
I say we should respek whatever Mr Blatter says. He is a wise man who brought us grace and glory. It is precisely because COCONUTS like Malala are right wing negativists that we need better media control laws!
Thanks.
Towards the end there, Prof de Vos was really waxing lyrical; I could almost hear the orchestra swelling to a crescendo.
“We the people hold these rights and freedoms merely because we are human beings with an inherent human dignity.”
No we do not. If it were the case that these rights were natural and inherent, they would not differ from country to country – not to mention be absent from certain countries.
The rights in the constitution were constructed by the NP and the ANC in the hope that they would serve particular political aims. Of course, some of the rights in the constitution may in themselves be noble or worthwhile. Neither apartheid SA nor the ANC had a culture of rights, so it’s no wonder the project of constructing a rights culture has been stillborn. Contrast this with the situation in the US, where the rights in the constitution came out of a tradition of the rights that were supposedly the birthright of every Englishman, the English common law and the political culture of the American colonies. To misquote Bill Clinton, “It’s the culture, stupid.”
This issue ties in rather nicely with the rather uncomfortable questions that are being asked about the ANC’s past, an exercise that seeks to answer the question of where did things go so horribly wrong.
Kenneth says:
“he problem with Justice Malala is that he lack self esteem, and for that reason he will do anything to get praise from rightwing groups”
Kenneth, so i take it that you will, in your next post, attempt to refute the points that Malala make in his article.
(or is it just that you don’t like the messenger ?)
kenneth says:
October 19, 2010 at 19:58 pm
Hey Kenneth,
“i will not be shocked if i were to find out that he is a member of afriforum”.
You sound shocked.
220 volts can have some heavy effects.
It will probably pass.
Kenneth,
I wish you could argue against the substance (or lack thereof) of Malala’s writing instead of attacking him as a person. Malala is right, even if the ANC did liberate us (a very debatable point), it has no right to tell us what we should or should not say.
The events of history, when told from a proper perspective will reflect the truth that local South Africans liberated not only themselves but the ANC as well. That we gave the ANC the honour and mandate does not imply we were passive in our own liberation.
We will respect the ANC (and the government) when they give us the reason to do so. Right now (by their own admission, nogal), the endemic corruption (among other vices) makes it difficult for them to earn that respect.
It’s interesting that Pallo Jordan intersperses his tirade with what could easily misconstrued as a word from the sponser (“Yet politically aligned newspapers are the norm in virtually all democracies” he says of the “coming of The New Age”; “It is a commercial venture, 200%.”).
Here’s two very interesting comments from Dr Jordan :
“All owe their existence to the policies of the ANC-led government.”
“Thanks to their efforts, today Malala enjoys the freedom ….”
Er, excuse me Dr Jordan it’s ultimately the will of the voters that has to be credited. In other words the people of South Africa.
“those of us who were colonised might insist that our history highlights the injustices of colonialism.”
Pierre, what is the referent of the word “us”? Were you a victim of colonialism? Or more a beneficiary – or even a perpetrator thereof?
So much for Dr Jordan’s “The coming of The New Age was received with scepticism. ”
The New Age newspaper has announced that five senior members of its editorial team have resigned.
Gary Naidoo, managing editor released, a statement on their website announcing that the five resigned today at 3pm.
The paper was due to be published tomorrow, 20 October.
“The anticipated launch will be withheld the 20th October, however the management and staff remain fully committed and are assured that this project will be a success,” he said.
The resignations include editor Vuyo Mvoko, deputy editor Karima Brown and others. No reason was given for the quitting.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/article716410.ece/The-New-Age-senior-editorial-resigns
@ Maggs Naidu
Does this mean that … the dream has been deferred (again)?
Malala is not alone, even some of their own (ANC) are reading the writing on the wall ……….
Contrary to the slogans used on political platforms about changing the lives of “our people” nationalization of the mines (as it is currently advanced) is aimed as securing the resources to buy more Range Rovers, Aston Martins, X5′s, Johnie Walker Blues’, Glenfiddich’s and all that makes these super humans tick.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=205728&sn=Detail&pid=71619
@ Kenneth
It doesn’t look like you can argue your way out of a paper bag.
Firstly, your premise that Malala lacks self-esteem is a subjective opinion and not a universal truth. You cannot therefore use it to draw any conclusions unless supported by some additional objective proofs. Your warped ad-hominem logic would suggest that any Black person who lacks self-esteem will by default do anything to get praise from rightwingers.
Now I guess there are many millions of black South Africans who perhaps lack self-esteem (as a result of Apartheid ?)
Why is it then that only Justus is searching for this rightwing praise and not millions of others ?
And why is it that you argue like a poephol ?
maggs, did i hear someone say “coconut” ?
Prof, some woman said on radio this morning. “There is a difference between custodianship and ownership”…In short I m saying – we are not custodians, but owners of these rights.. With that said – I do find Justice Malala rather obsessed with the ruling party and the revolutionary movement as a whole, hence he would be a darling of people like John Roberts – whom, by the way, I ve never seen argue without taking very cheap shots at those he disagrees with – see his “paperbag” comment above for reference…cheap stuff indeed!!! Anyway – I align myself fully with Prof’s take here. In the previous topic I made mention of how shocked I was to see how whites abroad played a pivotal part in bringing apartheid regime to its knees – for me this is a true “untold story” as the SABC2 advert says. I was all along amongst those who thought we owed our freedom only to the MDM.
Another facet of this matter: South African history is not written only in South Africa. I would expect that a significant way that the past is viewed will be affected by academia in the UK (in particular) and the US.
@ Spuy
The mere fact that I don’t think Kenneth has a good argument doesn’t make Malala my darling. Another example of stupid thinking.
Anyway, just consider that I don’t even consider you worth taking cheap shots at. At least I give some concrete reasons why I think Kenneth is stupid. You, I guess, were just born stupid and stayed that way.
Now get lost.
Michael Osborne, I grew up in a house in which the ANglo Boer War was presented as the pivotal event in South Africa’s history. The British illegally invaded the Boer Republics, so my father kept on telling us, committed war crimes against women and children and colonised us. I guess somebody who is from ENglish stock might have a different view.
John Roberts says:
October 20, 2010 at 7:18 am
Hey JR,
“There is no objective past, because there is no objective human being.”
It seems Pierre has not taken your sage advice to study Logic 101.
He sounds just like the drunk guy I told you about elsewhere.
No objective human being indeed!
etienne marais says:
October 19, 2010 at 23:29 pm
Hey EM,
Stop goading Anton who made it clear that it’s not funny!
@ MP
“To misquote Bill Clinton, “It’s the culture, stupid.””
Actually, you are misquoting Jim Carvillle.
But your point is taken.
@ Pierre
“The British illegally invaded the Boer Republics, so my father kept on telling us, committed war crimes against women and children and colonised us.”
Pierre, perhaps you have forgotten that the British invaded the so-called “Boer Republics” for the noble purpose of saving blacks you Afrikaaners were oppressing.
More seriously, your comment illustrates the fallacy of the narrative of historical victimhood; everyone can claim to have been the victim of some form of imperial oppression. By default, prime evil is that group whose role as victim in the long drama is the most antique. The English rightly draw little sympathy when they cry that they are survivors of Dutch, Norman, Saxon, Scandanavian and Roman imperialsim.
OK, so, perhaps we can return to the original post?
Paul Trewhela has long argued (for instance, his regular columns on PoliticsWeb) that the history about the ANC’s conduct in exile has been falsified – in fact, he was doing so long before that became polite conversation. Central to his thesis (apart from the dirt as to what actually went on in the camps) seems to be his view that the exile ANC was operating as a series of semi-autonomous criminal gangs – for instance, one led by Joe Modise – who simply made money by, for instance, selling stolen cars. His view seems to be that the current ‘factions’ are nothing else than a continuation of these gangs. To hear people refer to themselves as ‘veterans from the armed struggle’, then, starts to sound a bit like (un-)rehabilitated criminals.
Of course, since the ‘exiles’ were ‘exiled’ in Polokwane, the feudal structure has continued and is playing right in front of our eyes.
From that perspective, Pallo Jordan’s tirade is much less aimed at Malala, but is squarely focused on preventing anyone engaging in a more critical analysis of exactly what the ANC did in exile, and how it assumed the mantle of liberators post-facto. In my humble opinion, the most unlikely of bedfellows brought this country into modernity (Cosatu and foreign bankers), but that’s perhaps a subject for some other time.
Wonder if the constructed history of the ANC, eventually, will be protected with the new information classification bill?
@Michael, I can asure you the that the Briths did not invade the Boer colonies for the sake tof the native africans. Their reasons were purely selfish.
Pekkil’s pretty much spot on – Jordan’s piece was about shutting down criticisms of the ANC, not really Malala.
If the ANC is seen as flawed then it will be out of office in the next election because without the liberation struggle, it doesn’t have much left.
I remember the history teachings on the Boer War etc, interesting to see new evidence coming to light that nearly all deaths in the concentration camps were related to a combination of poor self-hygiene and pure stubborness to receive anything English (like food and medicine in some cases).
Deloris, I think you missed Michael’s irony.
Zoo Keeper, according to my great-grandmother Roelofse (Irish) the English put blue stone and ground glass in their food, so there!
And, what, pray tell, is your alibi for the burned-down farm they returned to?
zoo keeper says:
October 20, 2010 at 10:17 am
Hey ZooKy,
“If the ANC is seen as flawed then it will be out of office in the next election because without the liberation struggle, it doesn’t have much left.”
The ANC is flawed. Seriously flawed.
How much more flawed can it get than having had to recall a sitting President?
Much of the flaws are clearly spelled out in, among others, its own Polokwane resolutions, the election manifesto, the recent NGC documents, pronouncements by it’s top six, the NEC, the NWC, various Ministers in government, premiers, MECs, local government councillors and high profile members of the alliance.
Dr Pallo Jordan, who’s views I generally have very high regard for, seems to have a caught something contagious from the ANC’s pronouncer-in-chief. Maybe he will soon ask “Don’t you know who I am?”.
The flow of that piece really does not seem like Dr Jordan’s style at all – .
• Prejudice definition
• Attack Justice
• New Age
• Information highway
• Green paper on telecommunications
• Mandela challenges to the Telecommunications Union
• Heritage definition
• SA youth and the information highway
• WWW
• New Age
• New Age
• New Age
• New Age
• New Age
• Atul Gupta
• Radio and TV
• Malala
• NGC – veterans
• NGC – Little Moss and warrior queen.
• Free at last, thank God (maybe the ANC) we’re free at last.
• Attack Justice
• Little Moss.
Contrast that with “The National Question in Post 1994 South Africa”.
http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/anc/1997/national-question.htm
@Spuy
Kudos to you, sir (ma’am?).
You had a perception, which in a sense is your reality, you obtained factual information that challenged your previous position and as a result changed your view / perception.
Here’s an interesting read with some very impressive contributions and contributors.
“Rethinking South Africa’s Development Path: Reflections on the ANC’s Policy Conference Discussion Documents”.
http://www.cps.org.za/cps%20pdf/pia20_10.pdf
Brett
I was referring to the principle of investigative history without the lens of the victor.
I have no doubt in a situation such as the Boer War there were abuses etc. however, history is far more nuanced than we generally allow for. The “old” teachings were of pure brutality against innocents. Inncoents generally they were, but many appear to have been complicit in their own demise through lack of understanding of santitation for example.
No whitewash from me, just want more of the story. Farmhouses were burned (see the wrecks along the N3), and farming ruined which caused the great urban poor white problem, which eventually led to the 1922 revolution (by the SACP to keep blacks out of the mines – they’ve never referred to THAT incident have they?), and then Apartheid to uplift white Afrikaners.
I love investigative history and how long-held myths can be unsettled by evidence. Even the Battle of Isandlwana has been investigated to show that the Brits pushed their line out too far. No shortages of ammo or caving in of the NKR caused the defeat, just poor execution of tactics. Aspects of Blood River as well.
” If the government of the day fails to protect and advance our rights, we have a duty to ensure that they do protect and advance our rights. If they do not, we are free to take action – within the limits of the law – to ensure that our inherent right to dignity and freedom remains respected and protected.”
Prof, so what if the government of the day fails to advance and protect our rights through the executing arm of the law, ( i e arbitrarily detain and intimidate journalist by arresting them, unlawfully) are we, as civil society, free to take action, outside the limits of law, in order to restore the law? In other words, when does terrorist actions become constitutionally justifiable freedom fighter actions?
@ Maggs
“The ANC is flawed. Seriously flawed.”
I agree that ANC has serious problems. But may I point out two things:
1. The DA has even more fatal flaws, will never represent the aspirarations of our people, and has a seriously uninteresting platform.
2. There is a whole new generation of ANC leaders coming up, who I am convinced will overcome the flaws of the elders. I am thinking, for example, of Mr Malema – a worthy heir indeed!
Thanks.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
October 20, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Hey Dworky,
May I in turn point out that my hero, Homer, is now recognised by non less than the Catholic Church contrary to your rather dismissive stance on one of our greatest philosophers of all time.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/8069472/Homer-Simpson-is-a-true-Catholic.html
@ ZK
“[Afrikaans concentration camp victims] appear to have been complicit in their own demise through lack of understanding of santitation for example.”
ZK, what was to stop the British guards at least supplying Pears soap, which would have had the collateral advantage of keeping the Boer ladies’ complexions smooth and beautiful?
Michael
It appears to have been a complex issue. From the new stuff being investigated it seems some just did not understand personal hygiene and would not wash. No amount of soap was going to change that. Some refused anything given to them by a British soldier (understandably considering how they got there and their staunch pride) no matter their situation (even medicine). Of course it was not a universal problem but it looks like a large proportion of deaths can be attributed to these issues.
Some deaths were clearly from maltreatment, but the history taught was that all deaths were from maltreatment. It would appear that this does not seem to have been the case on a universal basis as I understand it to have been taught.
@JR
You will soon need a political home my friend, where the like minded are,i do not believe that you are sane bru, i mean with provinces about to be abolished, and even the DA to make any political impact need also “stupid” blacks, your ideology will be a very serious set back to such organisation. you recently wrote that your daughter hate black people,that is the legacy you are so proud to leave it to your children (assuming you have more than one).hate is not fun bru,you need help, i know you did not choose to become a raving lunatic, you are just sick/
John Roberts
My saying Malala is your “darling” is that- as far as I see (which I could be wrong)- you support evryone and everything Anti-ANC and 100% the opposite when it comes to the DA. As for your inability to argue politely and respectfully – I m sure you can get help somewhere! not all is lost brother, not all is lost!!!
Peter L
Its Sir actually.
I believe what makes a person better is his ability to GROW. This means if you get factual information that changes your initial perceptions, you need to change them. And Peter, I ll be hones with you, this has CHANGED ME completely. I used to be one of those guys who was really struggling to be objective where a white man is involved. And, thank God – that has changed.
John Roberts, why are you always so rude and angry? Surely even a generally grumpy, aggressive and rude person must sometimes display some respect and manners towards others he or she engages with? Surely, by showing respect at least some of the time you might just make people take you a bit more seriously than they do now?
@ ZK
Is it not so that Holocaust deniers argue that most deaths at the concentration camps were as a result of disease, and that the purpose of Zyklon-B was to delouse the Jews, some of whom were unfamiliar with conventions of personal hygience?
The ANC is a black NP. They like the way white men functioned, just not the fact that the men functioning that way were white.
The so called respect for all the democratic and constitutional values is just a facade used to justify their rule.
Another excellent posting Prof and I suspect Dr Jordan was suprised by the response from Malala and I doubt if he will engage any further. Gareth Cliff also launched an attack on a letter addressed to the “Government” and I believe he will be meeting the Presidency soon to explain himself. These incidents plus recent marches and Asmal’s comments are an indication that there is an organised efforts to vigorously challenge govt on MAT and PoIB.
I hope this new found energy that even woke up ex-President Mbeki will be channelled more towards priorities rather than elitist causes. There is no doubt that we need a more efficient government supported by good citizens.
We will continue to get the government we deserve.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=124281
After criticizing from the sidelines the DA is slowly learning how to shift the slippery gears of service delivery and I hope one day we will all work from what is good for the country.
I must agree with an earlier posting suggesting that the ANC does not need the embarassment of the “stillborn New Age”. It is very disturbing that we(ANC) can even allow/ASSOCIATE individuals such as Pahad to lead such an important project.
The good in the ANC will prevail and at some point most of these challenges will be corrected soon.
The past is tense..
OK, ZooKeeper, you may live.
Dunno about Michael, though – I have a feeling his people made a lot of money selling salted horses to the English to persecute my people…(Oneeee……..Settler!)
Gwebecimele says:
October 20, 2010 at 15:41 pm
Hey Gwebs,
Long time.
“I suspect Dr Jordan was suprised by the response from Malala”
Eish!
I’m wondering if the good doctor even wrote that piece even though his name is attached to it – the kind of navel gazing is reflective of lesser mortals.
It’s unlike Jordan to attribute the transition to democracy to a small compact when it was the people of South Africa supported by virtually the entire world which led to where we are today.
Of course the ANC played an inspiring role in that but the notion that the ANC is beyond criticism because of its very important part in our liberation is suspect at best.
And the the idea that the whittling away of freedoms as well as open, transparent and accountable government should not be challenged is mind boggling.
Dr Jordan is rightly regarded as among the most powerful of political philosophers of our country if not the entire continent – the kind of dribble in that article is hardly consistent with that stature.
And it’s hardly consistent with the ANC as I know it.
Oh, please, Maggs!
Why do you not ask your buddy Pallo what he was doing while his paranoid buddies Lekota and Nqakula’s ninjas were raiding the Imperial War Museum – blinding the curator – and confiscating enough heavy armour (with fresh mud on the tyres, nogal!) to destroy Soweto?
Brett Nortje says:
October 20, 2010 at 16:38 pm
I am certain that you are lying.
Again.
As usual.
Do something useful – try D-I-Y euthanasia!
Could the insufferable one please address the treatment of the 1984 mutineers, and especially the goings-on in Camp 22?
Not the ANC as you know it?
“In 1968 a batch of Umkhonto defectors from camps in Tanzania
sought asylum in Kenya, alleging that there was widespread
dissatisfaction within the camps. They accused their commanders
of extravagant living and ethnic favouritism.”
Tom Lodge – Black politics in South Africa Since 1945, Ravan, 1987.
The ANC, as we know it!
@ Maggs
“[Pallo Jordan’s statements are] hardly consistent with the ANC as I know it.”
Then, Maggs, you have been shielded from ideological traditions central to the ANC. While there have always been liberal elements in the ANC, no one should be surprised that the ANC in power hesitates to accept the unconstrained freedom of the liberal press to undermine our democracy. ANC intellectuals have a proud history of attacking the liberal/bourgeois conception of freedom of speech (See e.g Suttner, ‘Freedom of Speech’, 6 SAJHR 399 (1980)).
The readiness to shut down speech that undermines the imperatives of The Struggle was manifest in practice, not just theory. Anyone who was on Wits campus in the mid 1980’s will remember that progressive (i.e. ANC-aligned) forces were not prepared to allow liberals like Helen Suzman and Conor C O’Brien to speak on campus. (Etienne, were at that glorious lunch hour session on the third floor of Central Block in 1986 when O’Brien was prevented from speaking by the BSS?)
@ Pierre
“..John Roberts, why are you always so rude and angry? Surely even a generally grumpy, aggressive and rude person must sometimes display some respect and manners towards others he or she engages with? Surely, by showing respect at least some of the time you might just make people take you a bit more seriously than they do now? ”
1. It’s Apartheids fault
2. I detest fools
@ Kenneth
You’re really funny sometimes, bru. You should get your own show. Or an IQ.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
October 20, 2010 at 17:45 pm
Hey Dworky,
“While there have always been liberal elements in the ANC, no one should be surprised that the ANC in power hesitates to accept the unconstrained freedom of the liberal press to undermine our democracy.”
I am grappling with a whole lot that is going on now a lot of which is distinctly different from what I expect from democracy let alone those whom I considered to be hardcore activists in pursuit of a better life for all. I do not hold a puritan view of what that means but hope for a broad approach towards the aspirations of the NDR.
While the robust, vigourous even vicious debates, the heckling, name calling, sabre rattling (and to some extent the gerrymandering) is par for the course. However the legitimising of criminality and the delegitimising of some of our freedoms, the frequent absence of will to govern effectively, the neglect and the blase attitude of so many leaders of note and the all too often dirty tricks is hardly what I envisaged.
Before this gets taken out of context, I hasten to add that overall I am pleased with much of what has been achieved post 1994 but I sense that we may have reached beyond the plateau and may have started, or will be if this continues unabated, on a decline.
Nor does it mean that my support for the ANC has changed but the regard for the leadership as a whole has certainly altered.
John Roberts says:
October 20, 2010 at 18:21 pm
Hey JR,
It’s clear that you detest fools, which is why I specifically pointed out the rather retarded comment that Pierre made that “there is no objective human being”.
I mean really what is he teaching his students?
That people are all subjective?
Or that there’s not such thing as an impartial mind?
Maybe even that there’s no absolute truths?
Since Pierre is clearly not willing to read Logic 101 how about you post the essentials here so that he will be forced to learn some logic (and the rest of us will benefit from your smartness to).
Maggs, it is clear that you care deeply about Logic. Ironically, though, you are lamentably ignorant, and often intensely illogical. So here is the deal: JR and I will obtain funding from a charitable NGO. We use those funds to establish a short course on basic syllogism. Would you give up a long weekend to attend our joint course? JR, will you work with me on this important project, to assist Maggs?
Michael
I’m afraid you’re being glib! The Nazi camps were designed for forced labour, medical experiments and eventual extermination. the British camps were for detention with the aim of releasing once the war was over.
I doubt the British intended to have Boer women and children die on them, otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered with camps – they never did before or after. The Nazi’s on the other hand intended for their victims to die, whether by disease, labour, medical malpractice or gas. Holocaust revisionists are a bit like the Stalin revisionists – can only be done by writing blind.
@ ZK
OK, I accept that the holocaust comparison is well off the mark. What I was inaptly trying to say was that it seems absurd to force thousands of women and children into squalid camps, keep them in close quarters for years, then attribute their high mortality to bad personal hygiene.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
October 20, 2010 at 22:23 pm
Hey Dworky,
Thanks for that it will be very helpful. May I bring Pierre along. He needs help as rightly noted frequently by JR. Pierre often implies that the absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth. He needs to learn as the relativists would say that relatively speaking there is absolute truth.
But all that is too much for me – I will rather opt for basic syllogism especially if it teaches me how to train my table. I exchanged my cat for the table cos taking care of the cat was not my thing, so any added skills for my new pet would be great.
p.s. I dunno if the cat is alive or dead – I will have to ask the Schrody guy who said it was both.
@ Maggs
Heita, yes I have been doing a lot of travelling lately.
Michael
It is a matter that is still evolving, but there does appear to be case for many deaths being avoidable in the situations but the deceased did not use the facilities available.
Certainly not all. There were deaths from maltreatment and some camps were shockers, but that depended on the camp commander. Under a decent camp commander, avoidable deaths occurred despite assistance. Conversely, under a bad camp commander, avoidable deaths were caused mainly by the lack of assistance and squalid conditions.
There is no rule of thumb to be applied across the camp system as previously taught, which is the essence of the point I suppose.
T
“TechCentral on Tuesday reported how Sentech has to spend millions of rand fixing its famous Johannesburg broadcasting tower, which has fallen into a state of disrepair, with concrete flaking off the structure.
The iconic tower has a rich history. The Sentech Tower, as it’s known today, was originally called the Albert Hertzog Tower, named after the late apartheid minister of posts and telegraphs, whose greatest claim to fame was a speech in which he said SA would get television over his dead body.”
The quality of leadearship we once had in people like Albert Hertzog. What a visionary? His (and his peers) insight will be missed. This is the kind of experience that we need going forward and less the inexperienced Affirmative Action.
MDF,
“Etienne, were at that glorious lunch hour session on the third floor of Central Block in 1986 when O’Brien was prevented from speaking by the BSS?”
I’m afraid you mistake me for one of my (several) namesakes. Whilst you hardened pioneers were giving PW’s keystone cops all their hell, i was held in servitude, apparently (and ostensibly) keeping The Communists from invading the Motherland.
Their most successful historic myth is probably Sharpeville. If they
were a ‘group of peacefull protesters, who were fired upon’, why
did the authorities find it neccessary to call up jet fighters?
If the bantu don’t have a tradition and tendency to riotously
slaughter, how do you explain still TODAY the repeated reports of
“a suspected criminal was cornered and beaten to death by the crowd”?
What about the 2 Chinese mine managers who are NOW arrested for
defending themselves with shot-guns against rioting Zambians; are
they racist colonialists too?
> There is no objective past, because there is no objective
> human being. We choose the version of our history that suits
> our ideological commitments, our emotional disposition and
> our political aims.
Yes, although I resent the holohoaxers for hiding the fact that
Stalin’s and Mao’s attrocities far exceeded Hitler’s, I still believe
that the Jews are entitled to their own APART national territory.
And yes, if boy and girls have separate toilets, that IS APARTness.