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	<title>Comments on: This lady is not for turning &#8211; even if it means being a hypocrite</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: Derek Main</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-2807</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Main</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-2807</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Gavin on this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Gavin on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre De Vos</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-2390</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre De Vos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-2390</guid>
		<description>Gavin, ou swaer, what a sharp analytical mind you have. Debunking all my clever arguments with your rational and incisive analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin, ou swaer, what a sharp analytical mind you have. Debunking all my clever arguments with your rational and incisive analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Lewis</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-2389</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-2389</guid>
		<description>Consdtitutional law is a very specialised field. Academic salaries are low. Academics like to earn extr through outside work..But constutional law is a narrow interest  for such work. Mostly its confined to government. And who , pray tell, is the  main customer for De Vos ( and his colleagues) contracting work ? QED</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consdtitutional law is a very specialised field. Academic salaries are low. Academics like to earn extr through outside work..But constutional law is a narrow interest  for such work. Mostly its confined to government. And who , pray tell, is the  main customer for De Vos ( and his colleagues) contracting work ? QED</p>
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		<title>By: Ryno</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1557</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1557</guid>
		<description>Mqo.
100% Zille. This means I am firmly behind a political leader named Helen Zille. I base my backing on her policies and performance in Cape Town as Mayor. Irrespective of race. 

100% Zuma. This means that you are firmly behind a political leader named Jacob Zuma. I do not know what you base your support on as his policies change on a daily basis, his integrity is questionable and his tenure as deputy president was not exactly earth shattering either.. irrespective of race.

Please tell me indeed when we can move on and stop accusing opposition supporters of racism merely because they do not support the party who led the liberation of black south africans. Irrespective of race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mqo.<br />
100% Zille. This means I am firmly behind a political leader named Helen Zille. I base my backing on her policies and performance in Cape Town as Mayor. Irrespective of race. </p>
<p>100% Zuma. This means that you are firmly behind a political leader named Jacob Zuma. I do not know what you base your support on as his policies change on a daily basis, his integrity is questionable and his tenure as deputy president was not exactly earth shattering either.. irrespective of race.</p>
<p>Please tell me indeed when we can move on and stop accusing opposition supporters of racism merely because they do not support the party who led the liberation of black south africans. Irrespective of race.</p>
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		<title>By: Mqo</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1530</link>
		<dc:creator>Mqo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1530</guid>
		<description>James. 
It’s really ironic that people like you (i.e. opposition supporters) are critical of the 100% slogans been displayed by the &#039;Zuma&#039; camp, but how wonderful that you portray a similar stance in relation to Zille. Maybe it’s just a matter of the same bottle but different color support that is so evident within South African politics. When we ever move on?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James.<br />
It’s really ironic that people like you (i.e. opposition supporters) are critical of the 100% slogans been displayed by the &#8216;Zuma&#8217; camp, but how wonderful that you portray a similar stance in relation to Zille. Maybe it’s just a matter of the same bottle but different color support that is so evident within South African politics. When we ever move on?</p>
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		<title>By: jonny</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1527</link>
		<dc:creator>jonny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 09:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1527</guid>
		<description>@ Marion.

I will leave it to the legal academics on this blog to opine on the legal basis of your argument.

However your intellectual argument is flawed very early on in your comments when you refer to the &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;  “chattering classes “ &lt;/strong&gt; - “The sad thing about the chattering classes is that they rely on each other and the newspapers for the information on which they base their opinions. So they’re misinformed. This means they keep circulating misconceptions and misinformation in frenetic whirlpools.”
&lt;/em&gt; - giving me the impression that you were referring to the general (wo)man in the street. That is to say the general public. It seems to me that underestimating the intelligence of the general population with an elitist statement like the one you made is fatally flawed as history has shown all over the world – repeatedly.

Barack Obama learn&#039;t this – much to his chagrin, after he uttered what could be seen as a similar elitist remark recently in Pennsylvania. An election that despite his populist leanings he lost by double digits.

A reminder of what he said.

&lt;em&gt;”You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing&#039;s replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it&#039;s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren&#039;t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”&lt;/em&gt;

Last by not least.

The double entendre included in your  “bad old apartheid”  comment further leaves nothing to imagination as to a mindset mired in colonial elitism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Marion.</p>
<p>I will leave it to the legal academics on this blog to opine on the legal basis of your argument.</p>
<p>However your intellectual argument is flawed very early on in your comments when you refer to the <em><strong>  “chattering classes “ </strong> &#8211; “The sad thing about the chattering classes is that they rely on each other and the newspapers for the information on which they base their opinions. So they’re misinformed. This means they keep circulating misconceptions and misinformation in frenetic whirlpools.”<br />
</em> &#8211; giving me the impression that you were referring to the general (wo)man in the street. That is to say the general public. It seems to me that underestimating the intelligence of the general population with an elitist statement like the one you made is fatally flawed as history has shown all over the world – repeatedly.</p>
<p>Barack Obama learn&#8217;t this – much to his chagrin, after he uttered what could be seen as a similar elitist remark recently in Pennsylvania. An election that despite his populist leanings he lost by double digits.</p>
<p>A reminder of what he said.</p>
<p><em>”You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing&#8217;s replaced them&#8230;And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren&#8217;t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”</em></p>
<p>Last by not least.</p>
<p>The double entendre included in your  “bad old apartheid”  comment further leaves nothing to imagination as to a mindset mired in colonial elitism.</p>
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		<title>By: Marian</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1524</link>
		<dc:creator>Marian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1524</guid>
		<description>The sad thing about the chattering classes is that they rely on each other and the newspapers for the information on which they base their opinions. So they&#039;re misinformed. This means they keep  circulating misconceptions and misinformation in frenetic whirlpools.

I look forward to the day when  most journalists (there are exceptions) and opinions formers take the time to go to the source documents for their information, rationally consider them, and then report on them. 

Instead we get re-cycled conference circuit gossip, political party handouts and &#039;informed sources&#039; with axes to grind and party political agendas to act on.

There&#039;s a long weekend coming up, so Pierre, this should give you plenty of time to get hold of the Erasmus Commission&#039;s terms of reference for its &#039;probe&#039; into the affairs of Cape Town&#039;s government, take a few deep breaths. Focus. Read and inwardly digest, and tell us - with your independent constitutional law academic hat on - what you think of the terms of reference. If you were fighting in a court of law for the commission to continue, what would be your argument. Why do the ratepayers of Cape Town and the citizens of SA need the &#039;truth&#039; that will come out of this exercise. Would justice and the truth be served?

I have yet to see any rational, informed analysis in a South African publication, on these terms of reference. 

 In the bad old days of apartheid there were journalists who would take the time to read the terms of numerous NP-inspired commissions and explain why they were a travesty of justice. Nowadays, if the ANC hacks say a commission is a good idea, why rock the boat. It takes too much effort.

And please, stop whining about the way Helen responded to your criticism. As her predecessor Helen Suzman, one of South Africa&#039;s greatest liberation fighters, once said to Jimmy Kruger (I think) : If you&#039;re going to dish it (criticism) out, you must be able to take it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sad thing about the chattering classes is that they rely on each other and the newspapers for the information on which they base their opinions. So they&#8217;re misinformed. This means they keep  circulating misconceptions and misinformation in frenetic whirlpools.</p>
<p>I look forward to the day when  most journalists (there are exceptions) and opinions formers take the time to go to the source documents for their information, rationally consider them, and then report on them. </p>
<p>Instead we get re-cycled conference circuit gossip, political party handouts and &#8216;informed sources&#8217; with axes to grind and party political agendas to act on.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a long weekend coming up, so Pierre, this should give you plenty of time to get hold of the Erasmus Commission&#8217;s terms of reference for its &#8216;probe&#8217; into the affairs of Cape Town&#8217;s government, take a few deep breaths. Focus. Read and inwardly digest, and tell us &#8211; with your independent constitutional law academic hat on &#8211; what you think of the terms of reference. If you were fighting in a court of law for the commission to continue, what would be your argument. Why do the ratepayers of Cape Town and the citizens of SA need the &#8216;truth&#8217; that will come out of this exercise. Would justice and the truth be served?</p>
<p>I have yet to see any rational, informed analysis in a South African publication, on these terms of reference. </p>
<p> In the bad old days of apartheid there were journalists who would take the time to read the terms of numerous NP-inspired commissions and explain why they were a travesty of justice. Nowadays, if the ANC hacks say a commission is a good idea, why rock the boat. It takes too much effort.</p>
<p>And please, stop whining about the way Helen responded to your criticism. As her predecessor Helen Suzman, one of South Africa&#8217;s greatest liberation fighters, once said to Jimmy Kruger (I think) : If you&#8217;re going to dish it (criticism) out, you must be able to take it.</p>
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		<title>By: Brookes</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1522</link>
		<dc:creator>Brookes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1522</guid>
		<description>Two important points are being consistently missed in this debate.
The first is that there is no basis for a commission of inquiry by the Province into a local authority&#039;s affairs other than in the circumstances contemplated in section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act.  So many people seem to be under the misguided impression that the premier has the constitutional authority to intrude willy nilly on the turf of another sphere of government.  Apartheid style hierarchical government mindsets are well entrenched it seems. You know, like when the Adminstrator of the Province was the boss and the mayors were legally beholden to him.  Wish more of us took time to understand how our Constitution has taken us away from that structure.
Second point is a judge who chairs a commission of inquiry is acting outside his/her judicial capacity.  Erasmus is not sitting on the commission as a judge, yet most people, and in particular political commentators in the press, seem incapable of distinguishing his personal non-judicial capacity from his judicial role.  Mental gymnastics? Maybe it&#039;s time for a workout Pierre! 
Whether in this case it is right that a judge should have accepted the Premier&#039;s invitation to accept such a position is something the courts will shortly decide. 
Pierre will hopefully be the first to concede that he sometimes calls the likely results of court proceedings totally incorrectly. Remember his recent take on the case about the arms shipment in Durban harbour?
And by the way, I found a couple of articles Pierre might like to ponder in the light of some of his remarks in today&#039;s, as ever, entertaining offering: Elison Kahn, Extra-Judical Activities of Judges (1980) 13 De Jure 188 and Edwin Cameron, Nude Monarchy: The Case of South Africa’s Judges (1987) 3 SAJHR 338.  They are both referred to in the casenotes in the Heath matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two important points are being consistently missed in this debate.<br />
The first is that there is no basis for a commission of inquiry by the Province into a local authority&#8217;s affairs other than in the circumstances contemplated in section 106 of the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act.  So many people seem to be under the misguided impression that the premier has the constitutional authority to intrude willy nilly on the turf of another sphere of government.  Apartheid style hierarchical government mindsets are well entrenched it seems. You know, like when the Adminstrator of the Province was the boss and the mayors were legally beholden to him.  Wish more of us took time to understand how our Constitution has taken us away from that structure.<br />
Second point is a judge who chairs a commission of inquiry is acting outside his/her judicial capacity.  Erasmus is not sitting on the commission as a judge, yet most people, and in particular political commentators in the press, seem incapable of distinguishing his personal non-judicial capacity from his judicial role.  Mental gymnastics? Maybe it&#8217;s time for a workout Pierre!<br />
Whether in this case it is right that a judge should have accepted the Premier&#8217;s invitation to accept such a position is something the courts will shortly decide.<br />
Pierre will hopefully be the first to concede that he sometimes calls the likely results of court proceedings totally incorrectly. Remember his recent take on the case about the arms shipment in Durban harbour?<br />
And by the way, I found a couple of articles Pierre might like to ponder in the light of some of his remarks in today&#8217;s, as ever, entertaining offering: Elison Kahn, Extra-Judical Activities of Judges (1980) 13 De Jure 188 and Edwin Cameron, Nude Monarchy: The Case of South Africa’s Judges (1987) 3 SAJHR 338.  They are both referred to in the casenotes in the Heath matter.</p>
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		<title>By: James Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1521</link>
		<dc:creator>James Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1521</guid>
		<description>Well I and many other have 100% trust and faith in Zille. This whole thing is a an ANC smear campaign, I&#039;m not going to defend their dirty tricks campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I and many other have 100% trust and faith in Zille. This whole thing is a an ANC smear campaign, I&#8217;m not going to defend their dirty tricks campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: EZASEKASI</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/this-lady-is-not-for-turning-even-if-it-means-being-a-hypocrite/#comment-1517</link>
		<dc:creator>EZASEKASI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=526#comment-1517</guid>
		<description>Ja, prof the constitution like the bible is a dangerous document, we use it when we want to do good also when we want to destroy other people. Our own interpretations become extorted. Hey my zozo, it cant lock got to run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ja, prof the constitution like the bible is a dangerous document, we use it when we want to do good also when we want to destroy other people. Our own interpretations become extorted. Hey my zozo, it cant lock got to run.</p>
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