Zulu monarch King Goodwill Zwelithini earlier this week reportedly criticised people who engaged in same-sex relationships, labelling them “rotten”. “Traditionally, there were no people who engaged in same sex-relationships. There was nothing like that and if you do it, you must know that you are rotten. I don’t care how you feel about it. If you do it, you must know that it is wrong and you are rotten. Same sex is not acceptable,” he reportedly said.
(The Zulu Royal Household has since criticised what it called a “reckless translation” of Zwelithini’s speech – a “reckless translation” perhaps being one that exposes the “King” as being a bit slow and thus not very familiar with the history of his “subjects”. “At no stage did His Majesty condemn gay relations or same sex relations,” Prince Mbonisi Zulu said.)
I will leave aside for the moment the fact that anyone who is familiar with the academic literature would know that while the notion of “perverted homosexuality” as an identity was probably imported into Southern Africa by European missionaries, no credible historian will now deny the existence of certain kinds of same-sex intimate conduct over the past two centuries in Southern Africa – no matter how shocked the (white) missionaries might have been by this.
Besides, one cannot expect the “King” to read academic journals and popular articles on homosexuality merely because he wishes to express himself on this topic. He must be a busy man, what with having to spend the R883 161 salary he receives annually from the national government, and with having to ensure that the Zulu Royal Household budget of just more than R55-million for the 20011/12 year is spent wisely. (Apparently R34,2m is to be used over the next three years to renovate his palaces who must be in a desperate state of disrepair and this must also keep him busy.)
I would rather focus on a more interesting constitutional question, namely why on earth do we have officially recognised Kings and Queens and Chiefs in South Africa and why are we paying through our noses for their upkeep? After all, traditional leaders (including the Zulu King) are not democratically elected (they inherit their titles) and their exercise of power over between 15 to 20 million South Africans may appear utterly undemocratic. Secondly, traditional leaders are mostly men, which go against the principles of non-sexism that is entrenched in the founding values of our Constitution.
It must therefore come as a surprise that section 211(1) of the Constitution explicitly recognises the “institution, status and role of traditional leadership, according to customary law” – although this recognition is made subject to the other provisions in the Constitution.
Given the fact that most traditional leaders were co-opted by the apartheid state to help the state to control the rural population of South Africa and to administer apartheid policies, one might well have thought that ANC politicians and the supposedly “forward looking” business lobby represented at the time by the so called “reformed” National Party might have wanted to get rid of this undemocratic system of inherited and elitist leadership when they negotiated the 1996 Constitution.
Recall that during apartheid, labour bureaux regulated the supply of labour to the mines, commercial agriculture and industry. In rural villages the administration of the pass book and the running of the labour bureaux, where permits had to be annually renewed, were the responsibility of the chiefs, who charged a fee for this “privilege”.
The 1951 Bantu Authorities Act formed the lynchpin of this system of indirect control of the rural poor by the apartheid government via the system of traditional leaders. Power rested with a hierarchy of (mostly) compliant chiefs, who were made utterly dependent on the patronage of the Department of Native Affairs. Chiefs were no longer accountable to their subjects, but to the Department of Native Affairs. Their powers were increased while their legitimacy was being eroded.
However, this system of co-opted traditional leadership was put under severe strain with the abolition of the pass laws in 1986 as this meant that migrant labourers no longer had to present themselves at the Chiefs office in their home village. Chiefs lost their income from registration fees and, to some extent, their control over the movements of their “subjects”. Because “disobedient” villagers could no longer be punished by withholding labour permits and travel documents and as chiefs no longer had the opportunity to collect arrears from their migrant “subjects”, chiefs often reacted by imposing new taxes to make up for the lost revenue.
One way of increasing their income (and retaining some form of control over “subjects”) was for traditional leaders to seize control over communal land and strictly regulating the use of resources (like water, grazing and fire wood) on that land, thus forcing rural poor people to pay for the “privilege” of using these communal resources. Thus the system of communal living was completely subverted in favour of traditional leaders with none of the checks and balances on the power of chiefs which existed in pre-colonial times. Another way of retaining control over “subjects” was through the role played by traditional leaders in interpreting and enforcing customary law rules in traditional courts.
No wonder the ANC, who in exile seemed rather hostile towards the system of co-opted traditional leadership (including towards King Goodwill Zwelithini who at the time was in the pocket of a Bantustan leader called Magosuthu Buthelezi), changed its mind once back in South Africa. In order to defuse the violence between supporters of Buthelezi’s IFP and ANC supporters in KwaZulu-Natal and to gain support from voters living in traditional areas under the undemocratic yoke of traditional leaders, the ANC started wooing traditional leaders.
In this process, the masterstroke of the ANC was for the national government to take over control over the purse strings. Thus Parliament adopted the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act in 1998 which prevented Provinces (like the then IFP controlled KwaZulu-Natal) from paying traditional leaders over and above the payment made by the national government in terms of this Act. (This move – along with the buying off of King Goodwill himself – broke the stranglehold of the IFP over traditional leaders in KwaZulu-Natal and allowed for the current resurgence of the ANC in that province in the light of President Jacob Zuma’s election as President of the ANC.)
Meanwhile the Black Administration Act was finally abolished in 2005 and left a power vacuum as it robbed traditional leaders of some of their authority. This may be why the adoption of a Traditional Courts Bill (tabled for the first time in 2008) is reportedly on the legislative agenda for 2012. The draft Bill authorises a traditional court (led not by a judge or magistrate but by a traditional leader authorised to do so by the Minister) to hear and determine civil disputes arising out of customary law and custom brought before the court where the act or omission which gave rise to the civil dispute occurred within the area of jurisdiction of the traditional court in question.
Thus, instead of speeding up the integration of customary law into mainstream law (as one of the three pillars of our legal system), this Bill will have the effect of ensuring the continued marginalisation of customary law, practiced mostly in traditional courts and seldom in High Courts, where judgements are reported and infiltrate the legal consciousness.
Although the draft Bill requires the traditional courts to respect the provisions of the Bill of Rights, it is unclear whether such safeguards will be respected and to what extent “subjects”, especially women who may depend on the goodwill of the chief to gain access to water, grazing for cattle and housing, (or other unpopular individuals like gay men and lesbians) will be prepared to challenge a decision made in such a traditional court elsewhere.
There are going to be serious constitutional problems with this Bill despite the fact that section 211(2) of the Constitution allows a traditional authority to observe a system of customary law, subject to any applicable legislation and customs. This is because section 34 of the Constitution states that everyone has the right to have any dispute that can be resolved by the application of law decided in a fair public hearing before a court or, where appropriate, another independent and impartial tribunal or forum. This must be read with section 165(2) which states that the courts are independent and subject only to the Constitution and the law, which they must apply impartially and without fear, favour or prejudice.
Given that the Constitution subordinates traditional leadership functions and structures as well as customary law provisions and their application to other provisions in the Constitution – including the provisions of the Bill of Rights – I would guess that courts staffed by unelected hereditary chiefs will be found to be unconstitutional as they will not be independent and nor will they be likely to administer justice in an impartial manner – especially not to someone who happens to be a women or, god forbid, gay or lesbian.
They would lack independence because they would not enjoy the basic institutional guarantees required for a tribunal or court to be considered as independent. For starters, chiefs are paid by the government of the day and can also be removed as chiefs and they therefore do not have security of tenure. They would also potentially lack impartiality, as those chiefs who happen to be unwise, or are patriarchs or have been corrupted by money interests, might reasonably be perceived as being biased in one way or another.
Which brings us back to King Goodwill and his reported remarks about same-sex relationships: when we talk about transformation and the need to eradicate the vestiges of apartheid thinking, has the time not come for citizens to stop bankrolling the lavish lifestyles of Kings like Zwelithini (with his backward views) and the lifestyles of other unelected traditional leaders? Given the fact that traditional leadership has been totally transformed by the engagement with colonialism and was co-opted by the apartheid government and thus implicated in taking part in the enforcement of sometimes authoritarian controls over rural citizens, should people like King Goodwill not perhaps stop milking the taxpayer and start paying his own way like everyone else?
[...] Prof. Pierre de Vos has written an excellent post detailing the idiocy of still having royalty in South Africa, who receive millions from the [...]
Anyone help!!
What is the Zulu word for “rotten” that the King used?
But who says that the king has “false knowledge ” about wrongness of homosexuality ? He takes him self to know that same-sex relationships are rotten which means that he thinks he possesses true knowledge .
And secondly who is to say that not being democratically elected similarly involves “false knowledge” ? Who is going to decide ?
Remember the issue, as Pierre De Vos has argued earlier, is this :
” The interesting debate … surely centres around the issue of how we interpret facts within a specific context and whether such an interpretation of facts can ever definitively be said to constitute “false knowledge” or “objective truth” and who decides this: is there someone who floats above the world, above ideology above everything and can tell us that one meaning and one interpretation of a set of facts; one selection of relevant facts above another selection etc; is “the truth”. ” ( Pierre De Vos ).
What is going on ? Is the position De Vos is taking here compatible with the position he has taken on Mbeki issue re knowledge ? Let us spell this out a bit further : the king claims that he knows that gays are rotten . Pierre De Vos and many people like him hold that :
1) there is no objective way of settling the question as to who has the truth , who has knowledge regarding facts like that homosexuality is wrong .( see the post I am quoting from ).
and he also holds :
2) There is a way of objectively showing that homophobia is wrong and that there are objectively establishable facts regarding this matter : academic historiography ( western colonial science based import ) for example can show that the homophobic notions have been imported etc.
The criticism he mounts in this entry of the king is clearly premised on endorsing 2) which is incompatible with 1). Is this flip-flopping or is there a way of holding both views in some way ? What is the argument which would show that both views are true ?
I go with flip-flopping .
Perhaps one day they’ll find a cure for gayness
Funny, if I use my real name, John Roberts, then my posts won’t display !
But if I make up any old name and any old email address like this then hey presto !
So that bastion of free speech, Pierre de Vos, is blocking me because he doesn’t what I say !
Well done on being a hypocrite, Pierre, and also for knowing nothing about WordPress security. Flipping joker.
So from now on I’ll put an aka behind my new name(s)
Like this !
Or this !
Or even this
Pierre, please don’t meddle in our culture. Uhlanga lomhlabathi (King Zwelithini) is our king. He was not annointed by the colonizers.
Bloggers, I have not censored anyone. Peter Naude/John Roberts is lying. Apologies to all who have to endure such silliness.
This isn’t too surprising. I would’ve thought the same of western religion. It appears that the brain washing was quite thorough though…
My posts don’t show when using my real credentials. I am now testing this with my name and a false email address.
So it seems my real email address is blocked and not my name. That can only happen if the Admin (I presume Pierre) blocks it. Maybe it was unintentional, Pierre but it’s still blocked. Anyway, no worries mate, I’ll just use a false email address. Makes we wonder why you require it if it’s so easily circumvented.
I think this issue and the position Pierre takes here shows how completely unstable and untenable the pomo flavoured analysis which is the overarching philosophical framework Pierre also wants to rely on. The king’s homophobia is of course incompatible with values enshrined in our constitution ( assuming that his right to free speech doesnt trump the other right in question which gay people posess )and these values are taken seriously by us as citizens of SA when we criticize hate-speech.
But the pomo relativist argues that such values are not objective , not universal and dont carry any substantive normative force . Why ? Well , read the previous post of Pierre dealing with Mbeki’s views on knowledge creation : the answer is, roughly , that such values dont have any objective force ( any normative force / any categorical force ) since all points of view from which judgements regarding such values are equally valid . For this reason the kings’ values, which say that same sex acts are “rotten”, are as valid as the judgement we want to make, which is that the king is wrong and his talking the way he does is homophobic .
The philosophy which drives this way of thinking, Pierre peddles here about truth and values, has to undermine the entire effort to criticize injustice and oppression glimpsed in the kings attitude and speech because it implies that homophobia is not really wrong at the end of the day.
The philosophy in question promoted by PDV ( which is just a colonial import ) is toxic to our democracy because it eats at the normative foundations of our constitution.
@ Zdenek
Brilliant post above. You have him in a corner. Now deliver the knockout punch.
I know some pretty rotten people who are not gay. But I support the King’s right to say that gays are rotten. Viva free speech.
Pierre, as for the royalty you call into question …. it’s the will of the majority. This is a democracy, remember.
Can the constitution override the majority ? Let’s for instance say that the majority of South Africans decide that gays are rotten. (probably not far from the truth)
Where does that leave Pierre and his constitution ?
There are those who regard themselves as the legal subjects of King Goodwill Zwelithini (even if IFP leader called the king a fool). However I can see no reason whatsoever why my taxes should be used to pay somebody else’s king. Perhaps he should be remunerated from voluntary contributions made by his subjects.
John Roberts
January 24, 2012 at 15:56 pm
Hey JR you shithead,
Nice to see you again.
It’s been boring without your esteemed presence.
What’s news from Manley?
It must be stifling there – all racists with no targets for their racism.
Come back here and stimulate some interesting debates – just see the kak that has filled the void since you absconded.
p.s. “Perhaps one day they’ll find a cure for gayness” will mean that “they” may stumble on a “cure” for heterosexuality too – Eish, I won’t want to be in your neighbourhood when that happens. Stay in Manley.
The constitution overrides the majority – see the Makwanyane case.
Chris (Not the right wing guy)
January 24, 2012 at 16:46 pm
Haibo Right Wing Guy,
“Perhaps he should be remunerated from voluntary contributions made by his subjects.”
His subjects get paid from your tax money.
Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
January 24, 2012 at 16:49 pm
The sad truth!
It sickens me that my taxes pay for these tribal chiefs – not one of whom had to acknowledge their pro-apartheid activities before the TRC. How did they escape facing the TRC?
There’s no disputing that homophobia is widespread in SA. If we could break down the homophobes by age and ethnic groups I believe we would find and extraordinary anomaly: The majority of homophobes would fall into 2 distinct categories: Aging apartheid supporters (JR-types) and the tribalists on whom the JRs imposed apartheid …. Ohhhhh, the Irony is Delicious!
Viva the fact that Old People Always Die!
Viva Fresh Generations who Initiate Change!
Viva the Inevitability Cultural Evolution!
Hey Maggs
Nice to hear from you too ! There are plenty of targets here in Oz for my racism ! You can’t believe the number of black South Africans here ! But at least here I can call a spade a spade and tell them to f off back to Africa !
He Be
I’m a racist not an apartheid supporter. There is a big difference but perhaps your intellect is too small to grasp it. I don’t mind majority rule as long as I can continue being racist.
“Given the fact that traditional leadership has been totally transformed by the engagement with colonialism and was co-opted by the apartheid government and thus implicated in taking part in the enforcement of sometimes authoritarian controls over rural citizens, should people like King Goodwill not perhaps stop milking the taxpayer and start paying his own way like everyone else?”
So in the spirit of CRT everything must once again be the racist White’s fault. Before colonialism all the noble savages of the world had long vacations in Zululand that was then well known as the gay capital of the world.
http://www.sahistory.org.za/people/king-shaka-zulu
Its a sad day for our so-called democracy, when the leader of the biggest ethnic group in RSA is no longer allowed to express his opinion, without being insulted & called names.
He is the custodian of Zulu tradition & is surely perfectly entitled to point out what is & is not acceptable in Zulu culture?
Interesting also to note that very few if any Zulu people question the legitimacy of His Majesty. I wonder who bankrolls the Windsors & other European royalty with their lavish lifestyles & questions their right to exist?
Why do gay people have to force everybody to accept what they do & to say their lifestyle is right, without question? Isn’t this some mild form of fascism, to browbeat Zulu people into accepting something that goes against their own morals & values?
Does the fact that the rights of ‘groups’ like homosexuals are protected by the constitution mean that no one can say “homosexuality is wrong” even if that is what they believe?
Have we become so politically correct that no one (least of all a king) has the right to express his convictions without being called a homophobe?
Why is it called a phobia anyway? He expressed no irrational fear of gay people, just a non-acceptance, based on the norms of his culture.
If a Muslim person stands up & says “drinking alchohol is unacceptable in my culture,” is he guilty of hate speech against drinkers?
Jama ka Sijadu says:
January 24, 2012 at 17:20 pm
“Its a sad day for our so-called democracy, when the leader of the biggest ethnic group in RSA is no longer allowed to express his opinion, without being insulted & called names.”
Agreed. But this is also the pattern in Europe with a rejection of everything that is not Christian and White. Take for example the new right wing campaign against multiculturalism that is a thin smokescreen for the racist vendetta against the minority Muslims and sharia law.
John Roberts
January 24, 2012 at 17:06 pm
King Badwill Roberts,
“But at least here I can call a spade a spade and tell them to f off back to Africa !”
Here’s the deal – we take back all the Black South Africans – you take Zdenek and OB. I’ll throw in a chimp or two to eat them up. We’ll also send a King who talks crap.
p.s. Lots has happened since you left. I now have a ten year old son. He’s been made cricket captain. OB is jealous.
p.p.s. I see you managed to needle Pierre into responding to your nonsense about being blocked out – well done on that. Anyone who reads these blogs regularly knows that Pierre does not censor – nevermind, it was amusing.
In the spirit of “Wathinta abafazi, wathint’imbokodo!”, may I please introduce a new saying… “Wathinta igay, wathint’i blogerati!”.
I thank you!
Jama ka Sijadu – please answer these questions:
1. If Zwelitheni is allowed to voice is opinions why do you object to others voicing their disagreement with his opinions?
2. If Zwelitheni and the Zulu nation hate gays so much would you agree that gay people should be given a tax deduction commisurate with the portion of their taxes that would be allocated to the ‘king’ who hates them?
3. Why should any of us (gay/straight/bi) who disagree with Zwelitheni have to fund his lavish lifestyle? Shouldn’t all of us taxpayers who are not Zulu be able to apply for a tax exemption?
Jama ka Sijadu : please answer three simple questions:
1. If Zwelitheni is entitled to freedom of speech to spout his homophobia why do you object to others having the freedom of speech to disagree with him?
2. If Zwelitheni hates gay people should gay people not be allowed a tax deduction that ensures they do not have to fund his lavish, colonialist lifestyle?
3. Why should any taxpayer who is not Zulu and has no respect for Zwelitheni (who pontificates on morality while impregnating 16 year old girls despite having zillions of wives!) be forced to fund his lavish, colonialist lifestyle?
Jama ka Sijadu
You sound like a Luthuli House worker. Are you paid to write crap here ?
Do you not understand our Constitution ?
It’s great that the King can express his opinion and it’s great that people can insult him and disagree.
Or are you of that peculiar African breed who dares not speak to higher authority even when they sprout crap like you ? I’ll bet you were rooting for Mbeki whilst he denied citizens ARV’s.hank goodness the whites stopped him ! Most blacks were supporting him. Ironic hey ?
Be says:
January 24, 2012 at 18:04 pm
“3. Why should any of us (gay/straight/bi) who disagree with Zwelitheni have to fund his lavish lifestyle? Shouldn’t all of us taxpayers who are not Zulu be able to apply for a tax exemption?”
You can then probably also ask why Zulus as the repersentatives of the largest language group in South Africa should pay any taxes if the parliament speaks only English and all the universities speak English/Afrikaans too. I assume there can be many claims to entitlement of minorities that feel aggrieved about some kind of tax money going into causes they do not necessarily approve or derive any benefit from.
ozoneblue : good point.
There are 5 million taxpayers. How many are Zulu taxpayers?
Perhaps taxes should be ethnically ring-fenced?
Hier kom die k@k! Die Xhosas het aanvanklik regeer en nou is dit die Zulus se beurt. Hulle gaan mekaar vrek maak.
Be says:
January 24, 2012 at 18:35 pm
Oh I see now. You are just another pinkwashed racist.
“24 May 2007
South Africa’s black middle class has grown by 30% in just over a year, with their numbers increasing from 2-million to 2.6-million and their collective spending power rising from R130-billion to R180-billion.”
Read more: http://www.southafrica.info/about/people/blackdiamonds-230507.htm#ixzz1kOZMUGfn
That was in 2007 and it refers to middle class percentages. In South Africa everybody pays VAT and if you earn over 50k a year you also pay income tax. So I assume the vast majority of Zulu speakers pay tax.
John Roberts
January 24, 2012 at 18:17 pm
JR,
“Most blacks were supporting him.”
Whites also supported (and loved) Mbeki.
And he got his AIDS theory from White people.
Also recall Virodene – the industrial solvent which the Mbeki administration was punting as a revolutionary cure for HIV.
Plus he was, by his own pronouncements, a Thatcherite.
People are just disowning him now cos he got FIRED!
@ Prof: “no credible historian will now deny the existence of certain kinds of same-sex intimate conduct over the past two centuries”.
For starters, accepted DNA studies show that for 70,000 years at the beginning of human kind (thus the missing link they can’t find) there were only females and no males reproducing humanoids. It was after this 70k period, possibly a lengthy feminist head start which deflated, that g*d apparently and mistakenly evolved a dangerous toy to play with, the male. It is obvious to me as an observer and protector of the wild kingdom that many species including men and women have same sex interests. And not because they are sexually deviant, but rather that all of us in the world’s various kingdoms require love, security, intimacy and shared pleasure where it is available and desirable .
This so called honorable king states that there was no rape for example when traditional warriors went on the warpath; what crap, much of human evolution has been produced from rape, Africa certainly being no exception, and warriors especially utilize it as entitlement to this day whether on opposite or same sex.
I understand that for obvious reasons such as patriarchy which is male supremacy attempting to control the less muscular sex, that there is no word in Zulu for rape. Obviously for such men then, and unfortunately many today, it is seen as an entitlement, not a crime worth identifying with a word.
Warriors throughout history, much like prisoners when isolated from the opposite sex (again, just like animals and mammals) initiate bondings for power, affection, pleasure, comfort, and protection.
Spin isn’t just part of modern political life… its always been a part of social power and personal control tactics by despotic self serving leaders. This king’s denial of such truths actually shames him.
sirjay jonson says:
January 24, 2012 at 19:30 pm
“I understand that for obvious reasons such as patriarchy which is male supremacy attempting to control the less muscular sex, that there is no word in Zulu for rape. Obviously for such men then, and unfortunately many today, it is seen as an entitlement, not a crime worth identifying with a word.”
I assume that must be why the DAs latest interracial soft porn posters depict a white man embracing a black women and not shower-head Jacob Zuma embracing Queen Victoria or Helen Zille.
We’re all getting way off the topic – thanks Sirjay for dragging us back somewhat.
But lets focus on the principle not the specifics.
As an Afrikaner I demand traditional leaders – and just to show the King how these things should be done, our Volksraad should be elected.
Anything less makes a mockery of the equal-protections clause of the Constitution, another reason why we should resile from this constitutional agreement the ANC has scorned and withdraw our financing of the kleptocracy.
Jama ka Sijadu
January 24, 2012 at 17:20 pm
Hey JkS,
“Have we become so politically correct that no one (least of all a king) has the right to express his convictions without being called a homophobe?”
His convictions are precisely what makes the king a homophobe.
It also makes him anti-democratic and counter-revolutionary.
Hey Maggs
I’m being serious when I say my posts don’t show if I put my real email address in.
Brett Nortje says:
January 24, 2012 at 20:26 pm
Your Volksraad has indeed been elected. They all seem to be gayer than PdV to me.
http://www.vvk.co.za/15101/61430.html
Eish brother John.
ozoneblue … thats Great News! If the vast majority of Zulus pay tax then they can carry the costs of their king .. which means that the rest of us, who are not zulu, or supporters of their king, need not pay for his lavish lifestyle.
.. why the “pinkwashed racist” label? How would you label a Pedi or Xhosa taxpayer who resented funding a Zulu chief?
Im going to use my right to Freedom of Speech …
- Homophobes are homophobic because they are terrified of their own homosexual tendencies. Heterosexual people who accept homosexuality as normal do so because they have no such internal conflicts.
- Homophobes are more likely to indulge in hard-core porn, paedophilia, bestiality, snuff movies etc, because denial of their own sexuality and societal norms drive them towards abnormal behaviours which are typically darker and more secretive.
John Roberts
January 24, 2012 at 20:36 pm
Hey JR,
It sure sounds wonky – you’ll figure it out as you’re quite the IT fundi (remember you tracked down and killed Etienne).
But you know that Pierre will not block you.
You owe him an apology.
STILL WAITING FOR THE “ROTTEN” ZULU WORD?
“Addressing members of the royal household portfolio committee in the KwaZulu-Natal legislature on Tuesday, Mkhize challenged anyone who claimed to have evidence of a homophobic statement made by the Zulu king to produce it.
He played a DVD of Zwelithini’s speech, which he said did not contain an attack on gays.
Sibiya said Mkhize felt it was important for him to meet Mushwana so he could explain what the king said and provide him with a copy of the speech and the DVD.
Like Contralesa, Sibiya said Mkhize was disappointed that the commission had commented before it had the facts.
On Monday, the Zulu royal household criticised the “reckless translation” of Zwelithini’s speech.
“At no stage did His Majesty condemn gay relations or same sex relations,” his spokesman Prince Mbonisi Zulu said.” – Sapa
Be
January 24, 2012 at 22:22 pm
“- Homophobes are more likely to indulge in hard-core porn, paedophilia, bestiality, snuff movies etc, because denial of their own sexuality and societal norms drive them towards abnormal behaviours which are typically darker and more secretive.”
Prof Fagan – is that you?
If not then, King Goodwill Zwelithini – is that you?
Jon Qwelane?
Mugabe?
Perhaps it’s just Plain Stupid!
Be says:
January 24, 2012 at 22:02 pm
“.. why the “pinkwashed racist” label?”
Because you are a racist that believe that only white people pay tax in South Africa. Further you are the worst kind of racist that tries to conceal your racism behind your gay martyrdom. I still don’t understand why gay people can be so racist and bigoted when it was the ANC who liberated them from the old homophobic regime. And there are many of them, in fact I have found that gays can be the most racist of all.
Gwebecimele says:
January 24, 2012 at 22:32 pm
“He played a DVD of Zwelithini’s speech, which he said did not contain an attack on gays.”
I have an idea for the next IFP Youth Brigade poster. Zulu warrior lovingly embracing a nerdy looking White dude.
Time to stop paying traditional leaders?
yes.
if they want to rule, then stand for election. simples.
OB
“I have an idea for the next IFP Youth Brigade poster. Zulu warrior lovingly embracing a nerdy looking White dude.”
You stole this comment from elsewhere and replaced British soldier with “nerdy…………………dude”
Anyway that would be political suicide for the remains of IFP.
Be says
January 24, 2012 at 22:22 pm
I’m glad you used your right to freedom of speech.
It’s a pity though that you never used your brain.
I count at least 15 formal logic flaws not to mention serious errors in proof and recursion theory. If you could reach that same conclusion with some deductive and inductive reasoning, and retroductive inference, I would be impressed. But you can’t because your reasoning id fatally flawed.
Which means you’re actually just a silly poephol with access to Google.
John Roberts
January 25, 2012 at 0:27 am
Hey JR aka “Truth Sayer”,
“at least 15 formal logic flaws”
Are you telling Be, not to Be?
Pierre
Here is my translation of what the king said: “If you are one of the people I am talking about, a man who [sexually] abuses another man, a woman who [sexually] abuses another woman, you are rotten.
“Warriors would go to many wars forsaking their women. Zulu men would be gone for days .
“We never heard that there were warriors who [sexually] abused their fellow warriors,” King Goodwill said.
Hey Sobhuza
If the warriors in question were consenting adults could they be considered to be “abusing” eachother? … or were they just wetting their swords in preparation for battle?
On the King’s speech – he can say what he likes. You are free to disagree but he must be able to say it like he is for him.
That’s the price of free speech – offense and insult. He doesn’t like gays Prof, be insulted, but don’t say he can’t say it.
Should traditional leaders be paid by the taxpayer – no. This is a democracy and traditional leaders may have their titles but any public money or authority must only vest in the democratic sphere.
While we are on “Objective truths” and “misleading articles”, the attack on King Zwelithini might be based on someones imagination. I have listened to the clip on SAfm and I did not hear what is written here by PdV.
Prof under attack
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=276800&sn=Detail&pid=71616
Gwebecimele says:
January 25, 2012 at 10:53 am
Could you do us a favour and give us your translation of what you’ve heard? (I put trust in your capabilities, but if you do not want to, where can we acess the speech in the original ‘King’s isiZulu’? – but please bear in mind that ordinary ‘Cockney English’ is usually a far cry from ‘Queen’s English’.) I think it in the interest of justice to know exactly what the King said (or did not say) so we can judge for ourselves whether he is suffering from foot-in-mouth or whether he was a good king in what he said.
John Roberts says:
January 24, 2012 at 18:17 pm
“You sound like a Luthuli House worker. Are you paid to write crap here ?”
Forgive me Mr Roberts, for I am no academic or law expert. I’m just a typical ‘man on the street’, albeit with internet access & a keen interest in law, politics & the future of this beautiful country, so I thought I might learn something by following the Prof’s blog. (I learnt some REALLY big words on Monday, like “epistemology”)
BTW I actually live a few streets from Loothuli House, but alas, they don’t pay me anymore than you do. It may be hard for you to believe, but I come & write kak here entirely on my own volition.
Pity it seems all that is on offer here (apart from big words) is the typical bitter, arrogant, whitish rhetoric of people whose favourite pastime is denigrating anything African to show off how smart they are, people who think they know everything & therefore respect nothing & no one.
How foolish of me to think that ‘you people’ were of the peculiar academic breed that is too intelligent to be racist.
But ofcourse it is your right to criticize on your hoity-toity blogs & fantasize about wangling some sort of whites-only tax deduction out of the whole saga.
But bear in mind that to some people, he is revered, like the pope or the Dalai Lama or prince William may be to others & when you attack him for not going along with the “do as thou wilt” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_as_thou_wilt) agenda that has accompanied our descent into ‘democrazy,’ they will defend him.
Love it when people claim this Goodwill stooge can claim freedom of speech while he is leeching tax money. Also great it comes from him considering that his whole family history is one of ass kissing: first the Brits, then the Nats and now the ANC.
@Sobhuza
This is even funnier than the translation from the newspapers, obvioulsy his fat highness doesn’t know what happens when men stay away from women for a long time. Maybe he should visit a prison for enlightenment.
Maggs, I say the attack on the King is founded on venomous RACISM!
WDYS?
@ Mouse
This might help.
http://www.thenewage.co.za/41365-1010-53-Premier_defends_King_Zwelithinis_speech
He said the king’s actual words were: “During the good, olden days our forefathers dedicated their lives for the good of the nation. Men would go for months into battle to fight the enemies without their wives but did not harass each other sexually and there were no cases of rape of women. Nowadays you even have men who rape other men. This is a clear sign of moral decay. We condemned those involved – no matter who you are.”
@ Mzo
That was big PUNCH from the DA bloke. PdV must be on his Macbook as we speak drafting a serious response. I must confess that going through the quotes you cannot easily reject the article.
I have a serious problem with people who easily label others as “talking kak”, “racist”, “stupid” unless you have earned it like “Goofy”.
“Founded in 2001 through the merger of two established companies, Goba Moahloli & Associates and Keeve Steyn Incorporated, Goba has built up a unique reputation for professional integrity linked with the ability to deliver complex specialised projects effectively. Its executive chairman Trueman Goba is one of two civil engineers on the 26-strong National Planning Commission headed by the minister for National Planning, Trevor Manuel, since its foundation in April 2010.
Goba was fortunate to have been involved in the conceptualisation, design and construction management of no less than four of the world cup stadia—the multiple award-winning Moses Mabidha Stadium in Durban; the Greenpoint Stadium in Cape Town; the Nelson Mandela Bay stadium; and as lead designers for the Mbombela Stadium. In addition Goba was involved in the preparation of transport operational plans for the World Cup event in Cape Town, Johannesburg and Mbombela”
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page295046?oid=318595&sn=Detail&pid=1
http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/01/25/transnet-s-r8-billion-flawed-contract
Hey, come here big king, let me show you how a real man must be loved, I will convert you by force to become homosexual. You’re fucking me everyday by the taxes I need to pay your upkeep anyway!
John Roberts says:
January 24, 2012 at 18:17 pm
At least Jama does the fucking homework.
Tell Jama ‘here is a case where the apartheid state paid compensation to the people it forcibly removed’ and he goes and looks it up and comes back with constructive input including citations.
Tell Pierre de Vos to stop his intellectual wanking about whether the Constitution really prescribes ‘willing-buyer willing-seller’ or ‘market-related compensation’ for land taken by the state or to stop talking about the Nats that ‘stole the land’ because they paid compensation for it and see if he does.
Hey Jama
I’ve never thought of myself as too intelligent to be racist.
I’m intelligent and that’s why I’m racist.
I don’t buy all the bullshit about races being equal. We’re clearly different.
I don’t believe blacks are inferior or whites are superior. But we each have our unique racial characteristics no matter what the liberals say.
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
January 25, 2012 at 13:30 pm
Hey Dworky,
I say that JR is Truth Sayer – WDYS?
p.s. Of course the attack on the King is racist, the assumption that this is a Fong Kong King, not a real one like Elizabeth II. Nobody is allowed to say bad things about Lizzy in Hyde Park. Our King on the other hand does not even live in Hyde Park, except when he goes to visit Mac Maharaj.
Gwebecimele
January 25, 2012 at 13:56 pm
Hey Gwebs,
“I have a serious problem with people who easily label others as ‘talking kak’, ‘racist’, ‘stupid’”.
You mean me describing Ozone Guy, don’t you?
Consider carefully that assigning those labels to OB was not easy.
Ok, ok I lie – it was easy.
You’re veering off topic again, Maggs!
The question Pierre poses is ‘Time to stop paying traditional leaders?’
As a red bastard Pierre is probably a devious so-and-so. Perhaps this blog is not unrelated to the silly socialists’ stated campaign for the year – to scrap our provinces.
As with most of the garbage these silly red bastards utter this ‘campaign’ should face a deluge of derisive laughter – only they have and it has not, because we have a stupid lazy media and our self-styled ‘intelllectuals’ are possibly even less interested in scrutinising real issues.
The first question these silly socialists should have been made to answer (especially the colluders in our own failed state) is how it is possible that the National Party could have administered – by comparison to the ANC very succesfully –
The Republic of South Africa
The Cape
The Transvaal
The Orange Free State
Natal
South West Africa
Transkei
Bophuthatswana
Venda
Ciskei
Lebowa
Gazankulu
KaNgwane
KwaNdebele
KwaZulu and, last but not least
QwaQwa?
?????????
Scrap 9 provinces coz YOU can’t run ‘em where the NP could?
Dumbasses!
ANusClowns!
And, from Padora’s Box, lets remind everyone with a few examples at what level and to what extent ‘the racist regime’ could deliver services to black South Africans?
“” As I have proved in Opening Pandora’s Apartheid Box.everyone in South Africa benefitted from Apartheid, Black and White. Blacks had the highest literary standards and the highest life standard of all the blacks in Africa.
How was it at all possible for Tutu to study and become a teacher just ike his father was? How did Nelson Mandela and countless other blacks managed to become lawyers during Apartheid South Africa?
The Apartheid government built ten Universities for blacks including Medunsa which is a unique medical university that turned out 200 highly qualified black
doctors every year all at state costs, paid for by the white taxpayers. It also trained paramedics and nurses.
Since 1970 the budget for black education was raised by about 30% per year every year. More than any other government department. In the period 1955 -1984 the amount of black school students increased 31 times from 35,000 to 1,096 000. 65% of black South African children were at school compared to Egypt 64%, Nigeria 57%, Ghana 52%, Tanzania 50% and Ethiopia 29%.
Amongst the adults of South Africa, 71% could read and write (80% between the ages 12 and 22).
Compare this to Kenya 47%, Egypt 38%, Nigeria 34% and Mozambique at 26%. In South Africa, the whites built 15 new classrooms for blacks every working day, every year. At 40 children per class it meant space for an additional 600 black students every day!!! In 1985 there were 42,000 Blacks at 5 universities in South Africa, about the same amount at the universities of the homelands.
In an article called “Die Afrikaner” 11 Feb 1987, the quarterly magazine called “Vox Africana Nr 29 4/87 stated that, South Africa had 4,8 million whites and 18,2 million blacks in 1987. The whites paid 77% of the taxes and the blacks only 15%…despite this…56% of the government budget was spent on blacks.
During the time of Dr. Verwoerd, the living standards of Blacks were rising at 5,4% per year against that of the whites at 3,9% per year. In 1965 the economic growth of South Africa was the second highest in the world at 7, 9%. The rate of inflation was a mere 2% per annum and the prime interest rate only 3% per annum. Domestic savings were so great that South Africa needed no foreign loans for normal economic expansion. Even Lord Deedes admitted, “White South Africa grew to become the economic giant of the continent, the other members of the Commonwealth virtually sank into poverty.”
At the hight of Apartheid in 1978 Soweto had 115 football fields, 3 Rugby fields, 4 athletic tracks, 11 Cricket fields, 2 Golf courses, 47 Tennis courts, 7 swimming pools built to O lympic standards, 5 Bowling alleys, 81 Netball fields, 39 children play parks, and countless civic halls, movie houses and clubhouses.
In addition to this, Soweto had 300 churches, 365 schools, 2 Technical Colleges, 8 clinics, 63 child day care centres, 11 Post Offices, and its own fruit and vegetable market. There were 2300 registered companies that belonged to black businessmen, about 1000 private taxi companies. 3% of the 50,000 vehicle owners in 1978 were Mercedes Benz owners. Soweto alone had more cars, taxis, schools, churches and sport facilities than most independent countries in Africa. The Blacks of South Africa had more private vehicles than the entire white population of the USSR at the time. Today Soweto has modern shopping malls like, Dobsonville Shopping Centre. In 2005 the Protea Gardens Mall opened. This was followed by the Baramall Shopping Centre and the Jabulani Shopping complex and the Maponya Mall. Experts say that Soweto has as much as 25% oversupply of retail space. The Canadian Medical Doctor, Dr Kenneth Walker wrote about Soweto, (I freely translate from “Verrat an Südafrika”, Klaus Vaque, 1987, pg 41) “In Soweto I saw many homes that costs about $100,000 (1978) and that had a BMW in the driveway. All houses are single storey. Many are recently painted. Many had flowerpots in the windows and lawn in the front. Only 2% were shacks. If I had the choice to live in Soweto or in the apartment dwellings or “Projects” of New York, Chicago, or Detroit where there is so much crime, then I would not hesitate for one moment and choose Soweto.”
The biggest hospital in the world, Baragwaneth with 3200 beds and at its peak almost 8000 staff had 23 operation theatres fitted out with the most modern medical equipment that existed in the world. Blacks were treated here, operated on…at full state costs to the white-taxpayers for unlimited periods. The budget of this hospital was and is higher than the yearly budget of most small member states of the United Nations. Next door to Baragwaneth is the St. John’s Eye Clinic. The clinic is world famous for the treatment of Glaucoma, Cataracts, traumatic eye injuries and rare tropical diseases. All built and maintained by white taxpayer’s money for blacks. Baragwaneth in 1978 employed 450 medical doctors in full-time service. It treated 112 000 in-patients and 1.62 million out-patients per year. The children and infant death rate with 34.8 per 1000 was lower than Harlem in New York. In 1982 alone, this hospital performed 898 heart operations of world quality. Ironically…90% of the blood donors for this hospital were whites, who donated blood free of charge, totally voluntarily…to save black lives. (Quoted from The Citizen, 2 April 1987). “
@ Maggs
OB is my BF we agree on many fronts except a few e.g “race denialism”.
BTW. He is also guity of the same offence.
But on “Goofy” you are spot on!!!!
Haaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!!!
@ Brett ex-Apartheid Statistician
The apartheid govt failed to conduct a decent census on blacks let alone keep accurate socio-economic indicators. Spare us your cooked figures.
Back on topic, I deal with a few traditional leaders and a flea like PdV is unlikley to give them a speed wobble as they are respected by most Zulu’s despite some truly bad behaviour (the gay comment is really pretty mild). Change may come as traditional values are eroded, younger people educated and other political appointments deliver. Of course, the last two are slowed by ANC silliness. Maybe on purpose?
Off topic – Ah Gwebs, you’d know the figures were cooked how? Goba is funny: the “other” consulting firm that did most of the work on Durban’s white elephant (& lots of other things via special appointments) was BKS (Bruinette, Kruger, Stofberg) good broeder company with a controlling shareholding I think bought by Joe Modise with money from where? (Arms Deal??). Strange bedfellows. Goba by all accounts is a good engineer and nice guy.
There you have it, Brett, Baraganeth was actually built by the ANC. Medunsa did not exist before 1994. There weren’t any permanent structures in Soweto either. Oh and don’t forget, Whites never paid income tax, not before or after 1994!
Gwebecimele says:
January 26, 2012 at 14:47 pm
Ah! Another one of those highly amusing typically-ANC blanket-denials-without-regard-to-specifics in the ‘whatever-it-was-it-wasn’t-me’ school.
So, you’re denying the ‘racist regime’ ran
The Republic of South Africa
The Cape
The Transvaal
The Orange Free State
Natal
South West Africa
Transkei
Bophuthatswana
Venda
Ciskei
Lebowa
Gazankulu
KaNgwane
KwaNdebele
KwaZulu and, last but not least
QwaQwa?