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	<title>Comments on: Trying to manufacture figs out of horse manure&#8230;.</title>
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	<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/</link>
	<description>This blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos</description>
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		<title>By: New JSE members - Zumas true colours?</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-15779</link>
		<dc:creator>New JSE members - Zumas true colours?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-15779</guid>
		<description>[...] de Vos sums the whole lot up quite well: The new appointments include Advocate Ntsebeza who was fired by Hlophe after Ntsebeza’s rather lackluster performance before the Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] de Vos sums the whole lot up quite well: The new appointments include Advocate Ntsebeza who was fired by Hlophe after Ntsebeza’s rather lackluster performance before the Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: saz</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12835</link>
		<dc:creator>saz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12835</guid>
		<description>Jeanette, as far as she is able to, is &quot;running&quot; the WCHC well.  She is an extremely efficient AJP, and moreover is actually in chambers attending to her duties, which is more than I can say of my experience of the JP, whose attendance even before all of this malarky was unpredictable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeanette, as far as she is able to, is &#8220;running&#8221; the WCHC well.  She is an extremely efficient AJP, and moreover is actually in chambers attending to her duties, which is more than I can say of my experience of the JP, whose attendance even before all of this malarky was unpredictable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bongs</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12833</link>
		<dc:creator>Bongs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12833</guid>
		<description>Prof

I have read heads of argument in Hlophe&#039;s matter. In my view the appelants failed dismally to deal with what I regard as the cornerstone of Hlophe&#039;s argument, which is that he had a right to be heard before going public. That right seems to be also founded on the Code of Conduct: Judicial Ethics in South Africa. The following extracts from respondent&#039;s heads of arguments are telling: 

From majority judgment:

“[25]	There is a salutary rule of practice in our courts that if the head of court or a senior judge receives a complaint from a litigant or member of the public alleging some form of judicial misconduct on the part of a judge, the head of court or senior judge refers the complaint to the judge concerned for the comments of the latter before considering or referring the complaint to the JSC. This happens whether the member of the public requests the head of court or senior judge to refer the complaint to the JSC or not. This rule of practice is applied even where the complainant is another judge. In fact, in the case of complainant judges, the Code of Conduct: Judicial Ethics in South Africa (Guidelines for Judges), which was adopted at a meeting of the Chief Justice and senior judges held in Pretoria on 03 April 2000 provides that:

“A judge who reasonably believes that a colleague has been acting in a manner which is unbecoming of the judicial officer, should raise the matter with that colleague or with the head of the court concerned” (Rule 21)”

From Rule 20:

“When a judge decides to take action in response to perceived misconduct, the reference to the appropriate authority should be made in a neutral fashion.”  

“Before commenting in a judgement or in public on the conduct of a particular practitioner or prosecutor, the judge should give that person the opportunity to deal with the allegation.”

Any rebuttal Prof???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof</p>
<p>I have read heads of argument in Hlophe&#8217;s matter. In my view the appelants failed dismally to deal with what I regard as the cornerstone of Hlophe&#8217;s argument, which is that he had a right to be heard before going public. That right seems to be also founded on the Code of Conduct: Judicial Ethics in South Africa. The following extracts from respondent&#8217;s heads of arguments are telling: </p>
<p>From majority judgment:</p>
<p>“[25]	There is a salutary rule of practice in our courts that if the head of court or a senior judge receives a complaint from a litigant or member of the public alleging some form of judicial misconduct on the part of a judge, the head of court or senior judge refers the complaint to the judge concerned for the comments of the latter before considering or referring the complaint to the JSC. This happens whether the member of the public requests the head of court or senior judge to refer the complaint to the JSC or not. This rule of practice is applied even where the complainant is another judge. In fact, in the case of complainant judges, the Code of Conduct: Judicial Ethics in South Africa (Guidelines for Judges), which was adopted at a meeting of the Chief Justice and senior judges held in Pretoria on 03 April 2000 provides that:</p>
<p>“A judge who reasonably believes that a colleague has been acting in a manner which is unbecoming of the judicial officer, should raise the matter with that colleague or with the head of the court concerned” (Rule 21)”</p>
<p>From Rule 20:</p>
<p>“When a judge decides to take action in response to perceived misconduct, the reference to the appropriate authority should be made in a neutral fashion.”  </p>
<p>“Before commenting in a judgement or in public on the conduct of a particular practitioner or prosecutor, the judge should give that person the opportunity to deal with the allegation.”</p>
<p>Any rebuttal Prof???</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Mcdaniel</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12696</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Mcdaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12696</guid>
		<description>well its about bloody time

&quot;The Judicial Service Commission (JSC) will hear the matter relating to Cape Judge President John Hlophe between April 1 and 8, spokesperson Marumo Moerane said on Wednesday&quot;

www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&amp;click_id=15&amp;art_id=nw20090325203610982C594685</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well its about bloody time</p>
<p>&#8220;The Judicial Service Commission (JSC) will hear the matter relating to Cape Judge President John Hlophe between April 1 and 8, spokesperson Marumo Moerane said on Wednesday&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&#038;click_id=15&#038;art_id=nw20090325203610982C594685" rel="nofollow">http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&#038;click_id=15&#038;art_id=nw20090325203610982C594685</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ishmael Malale</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12692</link>
		<dc:creator>Ishmael Malale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 07:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12692</guid>
		<description>The difference of opinion among the judges indicate the political stances of the judges is influencing how the apply the law to facts and the interity of the judiciary is being eaten away. 

The judiciary is about to undergo major transformation. Hlope will certainly loose in the SCA but the matter of the complaint will be very difficult to resolve. 

The key witnesses are recalcitrant. Why is it taking so long for the JSC to dispose of this complaint. What will parliament say ? WIll they impeach the man?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference of opinion among the judges indicate the political stances of the judges is influencing how the apply the law to facts and the interity of the judiciary is being eaten away. </p>
<p>The judiciary is about to undergo major transformation. Hlope will certainly loose in the SCA but the matter of the complaint will be very difficult to resolve. </p>
<p>The key witnesses are recalcitrant. Why is it taking so long for the JSC to dispose of this complaint. What will parliament say ? WIll they impeach the man?</p>
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		<title>By: Vuyo</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12683</link>
		<dc:creator>Vuyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 07:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12683</guid>
		<description>Clara // Mar 25, 2009 at 8:03 pm 
Thank you Clara, my thoughts exactly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clara // Mar 25, 2009 at 8:03 pm<br />
Thank you Clara, my thoughts exactly.</p>
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		<title>By: Spuy</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12666</link>
		<dc:creator>Spuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 01:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12666</guid>
		<description>Well...point taken Prof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230;point taken Prof.</p>
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		<title>By: Pierre De Vos</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12657</link>
		<dc:creator>Pierre De Vos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12657</guid>
		<description>Spuy, to coin a phrase, you are comparing figs to horse manure. Difference is: I am not a judge. My independence is not guaranteed by the constitution. I am not dependent on my power and the ability to do my job on my credibility and the trust of the general population. Judges of the Constitutional Court, on the other hand, has to jealously guard their integrity and independence. In any case, the judges of the CC did NOT make public any rumours. You are wrong on that score. They made public the fact (AND ONLY THE FACT) that they were lodging a complaint against Hlophe. This was not a rumour. It was a very obvious and true fact. 

If the university decided to suspend me and institute disciplinary proceedings against me (and because I am supposedly so famous and important) they feel they need to inform the media (maybe because I am being suspended and under investigation for inflating grades or passing students who never passed the exam but gave me a few thousand Rand, the integirty of the University will be at stake and hiding the fact will compromise their integrity. The University would surely therefore have EVERY right in the world to inform the media about this proven fact, namely that it has suspended me and has lodged a disciplinary process. As our Courts have often stated: NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT NOT TO BE INVESTIGATED AND ACCUSED AND WHEN ONE IS ACCUSED OR INVESTIGATED THIS WILL INEVITABLY AFFECT ONE&quot;S standing in the community and cause one pain and suffering. It is the price we pay for not living in North Korea (or China for that matter). You might pine for North Korea or China, but I will take the rough and tumble of democracy any day. But maybe I am weird for wanting to live in a country where I can more or less say what I think and for not wanting to starve to death or be tortured to death because I did not like the Dear Leader&#039;s haircut and said so publicly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spuy, to coin a phrase, you are comparing figs to horse manure. Difference is: I am not a judge. My independence is not guaranteed by the constitution. I am not dependent on my power and the ability to do my job on my credibility and the trust of the general population. Judges of the Constitutional Court, on the other hand, has to jealously guard their integrity and independence. In any case, the judges of the CC did NOT make public any rumours. You are wrong on that score. They made public the fact (AND ONLY THE FACT) that they were lodging a complaint against Hlophe. This was not a rumour. It was a very obvious and true fact. </p>
<p>If the university decided to suspend me and institute disciplinary proceedings against me (and because I am supposedly so famous and important) they feel they need to inform the media (maybe because I am being suspended and under investigation for inflating grades or passing students who never passed the exam but gave me a few thousand Rand, the integirty of the University will be at stake and hiding the fact will compromise their integrity. The University would surely therefore have EVERY right in the world to inform the media about this proven fact, namely that it has suspended me and has lodged a disciplinary process. As our Courts have often stated: NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT NOT TO BE INVESTIGATED AND ACCUSED AND WHEN ONE IS ACCUSED OR INVESTIGATED THIS WILL INEVITABLY AFFECT ONE&#8221;S standing in the community and cause one pain and suffering. It is the price we pay for not living in North Korea (or China for that matter). You might pine for North Korea or China, but I will take the rough and tumble of democracy any day. But maybe I am weird for wanting to live in a country where I can more or less say what I think and for not wanting to starve to death or be tortured to death because I did not like the Dear Leader&#8217;s haircut and said so publicly?</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12656</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12656</guid>
		<description>Vuyo - relax, there&#039;s nothing wrong with Peter Hazell. He&#039;s a &#039;mensch&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vuyo &#8211; relax, there&#8217;s nothing wrong with Peter Hazell. He&#8217;s a &#8216;mensch&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Spuy</title>
		<link>http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/trying-to-manufacture-figs-out-of-horsemanure/#comment-12655</link>
		<dc:creator>Spuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 17:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/?p=885#comment-12655</guid>
		<description>spoiler, point taken-though I wasnt asking you Mr/Mrs Knowitall. Prof, I still believe that e.g It would be wrong for the UWC board/Management to go to the media to report that it has lodged/laid a charge against Prof Pierre De Vos, known as you are by the public, for ALLEDGEDLY being racist/abusive or whatever the case, WITHOUT even having asked for your version before. It totally goes against common law I would imagine. I mean, it is worse if this basic common sense principle is misunderstood by judges of the highest court of the country. Prof, you cant dispute my contention when I say it is irresponsible to run to the media about rumours, when basic prelimenary investigations (e.g audi alterem partem) have not even done internally. Immediately a rumour is out in the media, there s all sorts of speculations, perceptions, over&quot;disecting&quot; and so on-that on its own, is enough to pollute the very disciplinary processes. Surely, that somehow violates a person&#039;s right to dignity. Remember, Laurens Mushwana once found in Zuma s favour, precisely on this new cancerous norm of always PREMATURELY running to the media without prior basic processess being done. It cant be correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spoiler, point taken-though I wasnt asking you Mr/Mrs Knowitall. Prof, I still believe that e.g It would be wrong for the UWC board/Management to go to the media to report that it has lodged/laid a charge against Prof Pierre De Vos, known as you are by the public, for ALLEDGEDLY being racist/abusive or whatever the case, WITHOUT even having asked for your version before. It totally goes against common law I would imagine. I mean, it is worse if this basic common sense principle is misunderstood by judges of the highest court of the country. Prof, you cant dispute my contention when I say it is irresponsible to run to the media about rumours, when basic prelimenary investigations (e.g audi alterem partem) have not even done internally. Immediately a rumour is out in the media, there s all sorts of speculations, perceptions, over&#8221;disecting&#8221; and so on-that on its own, is enough to pollute the very disciplinary processes. Surely, that somehow violates a person&#8217;s right to dignity. Remember, Laurens Mushwana once found in Zuma s favour, precisely on this new cancerous norm of always PREMATURELY running to the media without prior basic processess being done. It cant be correct.</p>
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