Constitutional Hill

Unpacking the legal arguments in The Spear case

The presentation of the legal arguments about whether a final interdict should be granted against the Goodman Gallery and City Press to cease publication (on their websites) of a work of art, depicting someone who looks like President Jacob Zuma with his private parts hanging out, occurs against a complex and multi-layered background.

Whether one chooses to view the saga by looking through the lens of our painful past (by focusing on colonialism and apartheid dispossession and racial discrimination) or by looking through the lens of the painful present (by focusing on the increasing corruption and nepotism of selfish politicians, businessmen and friends and family members of the President) or by looking through some other lens entirely (traditional Christian morality; the values enshrined in the Constitution; a patriarchal value system; a feminist rejection of phallocentrism; the opportunity to gain some political mileage out of the ordeal; or many other lenses besides), one will have a different view of “The Spear” and the attempt to impose legal censorship on those who have published reproductions of the painting.

The problem is that the law is a rather blunt instrument with which to mediate this clash between widely differing values, ideas and principles. Neither is the law usually a very effective instrument through which to reconcile different parties who often revert to the law in an attempts to assert their political dominance over the political community as a whole. This is because someone must usually win and someone must usually lose a court case. The Afriforum’s hate speech case against Julius Malema is a case in point where a body turned to the court to fight what was essentially a political battle about who gets to decide what is acceptable speech in our democracy.

But for better or for worse, the ANC (in the guise of President Jacob Zuma) has reverted to the courts to try and “resolve” the problems raised by Brett Murray’s painting, so it is to the law that we should turn for answers. And as I have said before, I am not sure the legal precedents will assist the ANC (and Zuma) to assert their political hegemony over South Africa’s polity in this case, a case which has touched a nerve because it has become (or has been manipulated to become) about far more than about whether our President’s rights have been infringed.

The President’s case faces several, what appears to me to be insurmountable, legal hurdles. His lawyers are asking the court to issue an order for a final interdict prohibiting City Press and the Goodman Gallery from displaying images of the work of art on their websites. To persuade the court to grant such an order, they will have to show that President Zuma has a clear right, that there is a threat that such a right will be infringed or there has been a refusal to act in fulfilment of such right and that there is no other suitable remedy to stop the threatened or continued breach of his right.

It is clear from our law that the President (like every single other person in South Africa) has a right not to be defamed unlawfully, in other words not to have his reputation lowered in the eyes of reasonable people without a justifiable reason. He also has a common law right to dignity, which means that he has a right not to have his sense of self-worth lowered by the actions of others. (By the way, in our Constitution, the concept of dignity has a wide meaning which covers a number of different values. But under our common law “dignity” has a narrower meaning. It is confined to the person’s feeling of self-worth.)

But rights — also these common law rights — are not absolute. For example, one’s right not to be defamed is limited in the sense that the individual who has defamed another person (say, the President) can provide a justification for the defamation which would make the otherwise unlawful defamation lawful. Such a justification — if it is found to exist — would then limit or negate the rights of the President. Traditionally the justificatory grounds include, for example, that the statement was true and published for the public benefit, that it was published on a privileged occasion, that it constituted fair comment on facts which are true, or (more recently) that it was reasonable to publish.

The question is whether it would be reasonable to impose liability on a person who has defamed someone else for the damages flowing from the defamation. The judicial determination of that reasonableness would in turn depend on considerations of public and legal policy in accordance with constitutional norms. Dignity and freedom of speech are not the only constitutional norms that may come into play. A court may find an admittedly defamatory statement justified in order to give effect to some other constitutional value such as the values of (artistic) freedom or the need to protect an open and democratic society and to ensure openness and accountability from elected officials (such as the President).

The heart of President Zuma’s case is encapsulated by the following sentence in his finding affidavit:

The portrait depicts me in a manner that suggests I am a philanderer, a womaniser and one with no respect. It is an undignified depiction of my personality and seeks to create doubt about my personality in the eyes of fellow citizens, family and children.

There can only be an unlawful infringement of his right not to be defamed if the message sent by the artwork is not considered to be fair comment (given the fact that he is an elected member of a political party who necessarily will be expected to endure more harsh forms of criticism than a private citizen) or if the message is not essentially true and in the public interest.

First, a politician in an open and democratic society should be expected to face attempts by their political opponents or critics to create doubt about their personalities in the eyes of citizens. Much of what goes for political discourse and debate in a modern democracy centres around such attempts to create doubt about the  character of political opponents.

That is why someone like Helen Zille would probably not be able successfully to sue a commentator who writes an opinion piece in which he or she casts doubt on Zille’s commitment to transformation or the principle of non-discrimination. Similarly, suggesting that the President’s personality is suspect, would normally be fair comment. Second, given the publicly available facts about President Zuma’s private life, it is also unlikely that a court would not find that suggesting that the President is a philanderer and a womaniser, one with no respect, is not arguably true.

Although the picture thus arguably defames the President, this is lawful and the President has no right not to have his reputation attacked in what appears to be a lawful manner.

For a dignity claim to succeed what the common law requires are three elements: a deliberately inflicted, wrongful act, that impairs the President’s dignity. The injury he suffered should be one of which the law takes cognisance. Not every subjective slight has legal impact. This is an objective test. It requires the conduct complained of to be tested against the prevailing norms of society (also referred to as the current values and thinking of the community) in order to determine whether such conduct can be classified as wrongful.

These prevailing norms must be judged with reference to constitutional values and norms and must give effect to them. These would include the need to respect artistic freedom and the obvious requirement that politicians could not enjoy absolute protection from being offended or hurt. If this were to be the case, the robust political discourse which is the lifeblood of any democracy would be stifled or even extinguished. Protecting politicians from any insults by their political opponents (or even more pertinently, in works of art) would thus not be in conformity with the basic requirements for the flourishing of a vibrant democracy. In fact, it would mean the end of democratic politics as we have practiced it in South Africa since 1994 and as it is practiced in democracies elsewhere on the continent and other parts of the world.

(One might well argue that our politics has been bedevilled by a culture of hurling rude insults at those one disagree with. For example, making remarks about Helen Zille’s sexual proclivities regarding her male-dominated cabinet or calling former President Thabo Mbeki a dead snake are far from polite and these kinds of comments and, arguably, the painting of Zuma, poison public discourse. But this does not mean that it would be legally possible to interdict a political opponent from being so rude.)

If I am correct, the application will fall at the first hurdle as no legally recognised right could be shown to have been infringed. If I am not correct, then the interdict application will probably fail for another obvious reason. There has been no defamation trial to establish whether unlawful defamation or an infringement of dignity has occurred. Until such time as a court determines that there was indeed an unlawful infringement of President Zuma’s dignity or unlawful defamation, the refusal of City Press and the Goodman Gallery to remove copies of the artwork from their websites does not constitute a refusal to respect the right in question and the second requirement for granting the interdict would not be met.

Linked to this, one must make the obvious point that there is also the problem that another remedy is available to the President, namely to sue the artist, the Goodman Gallery and City Press for defamation. Until such a defamation case has been launched and won, the interdict cannot, in my view, be granted.

Lastly, courts usually do not grant orders of an academic nature or orders that cannot be enforced. This is because the legitimacy of the judiciary would be eroded if it issued orders which were widely ignored. In this case, the harm has been done and the picture has been widely distributed and viewed. It has probably been published on hundreds of thousands of Facebook pages, Blogs, in email messages and the like. One cannot take the milk out of the coffee and prevent the image from continuing to be published on the internet — both in South Africa and elsewhere. Granting an interdict against the artist, the gallery and City Press will therefore be academic.

The only way to deal with this in a legally sound way is to bring a defamation case against selected parties who have published copies of the work. If the President is successful, (something which I have argued is unlikely) the threat of further defamation suits may force many people who have published the work of art to remove it from the internet. But this is probably not a wise move, as evidence of the President’s sexual life will then take centre stage in such a court case, as those sued would try and show that the President is indeed a philanderer and womaniser.

  • Chris (Not the right wing guy)

    I find the post very interesting, but I have a different opinion on the probable result. After a hard day in court, and having to prepare for another hard day in court tomorrow, I don’t feel like exploring the legal arguments – to do that i will have to do some research, for which I don’t have the time or stamina now. I think Zuma will succeed on the dignitas issue. However the part you quoted from his affidavit really made me laugh out loud. Did you see what Zapiro made of it?

  • Thomas

    Prof I will ask you a few stupid questions:

    1. If this is true: The Goodman Gallery told artist Brett Murray it would not be showing one of his work’s in his latest exhibition because it might offend Muslim and Jewish viewers, the High Court in Johannesburg heard on Thursday.

    Why is the Goodman Gallery using the speech and freedom of expression argument? They are against censuring artists but they censured Murry?

    2. “What evidence is there that this is a colonial attack on the black cultures of this country?”

    The fact that the gallery felt that the Muslim culture and the Jewish culture should be shielded from offence while african blacks could be offended.

    3. “…But [we] also have three black people saying that that picture is not necessarily to be interpreted as insulting. So it’s black against black. So where does the racial question come in?” asked Claassen.

    I dont know whow the law works or how judges think, but the logic in these question does not stand. More than three black people supported apartheid, so must we now conclude that it was not a racist system?

    3. Claassen then asked: “Where is the evidence that black culture is inferior? Because if that is so Mr Malindi, you would not be standing here very eloquently arguing this matter.”

    Maybe you can decipher what the judge meant when he said this. How does one arguing a matter in court have to do with culture.

    I hope you have time to please answer these questions. I need a legal mind to clarify them, as these questions have been the talk of the evening in my town.

  • Brett Nortje

    Thomas says:
    May 24, 2012 at 19:59 pm

    If the first point is true she is an archhypocrite and a racist.

    Well spotted!

  • Pierre De Vos

    There is no accounting for the silly things judges say and ask (and what they write in court judgments) – see my critique of the Constitutional Court about their Dey judgment published in SA Law Journal. That is why we have Law Journals. If judges were all wise and infallible, I would be out of a job, pronto. I am not sure judge Claassen has come to grips with race in any meaningful manner. At least, judged by these comments, I fear he has not.

    As for the allegations about censoring works of art because of Muslim and Jewish sensitivities, if true it would expose the gallery owner as an outrageous hypocrite, at best.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Thomas
    May 24, 2012 at 19:59 pm

    Thomas I raised that earlier – May 24, 2012 at 13:13 pm

    Sne was peeved.

    Let’s hear what others have to say.

    “Hmmmm!

    WTF, so it’s ok to offend Africans but not Muslims and Jews???

    The Goodman Gallery told artist Brett Murray it would not be showing one of his work’s in his latest exhibition because it might offend Muslim and Jewish viewers, the High Court in Johannesburg heard on Thursday.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/24/zuma-painting-case-update-murray-painting-pulled-by-gallery

  • Brett Nortje

    If the claim is true I doubt she would have given one moment’s thought to Muslim sensibilities….

  • ewald

    Prof, please help the paluka which is me: What I read into the painting is that Zuma has become a law unto himself and his actions are spearheaded by personal greed.

    So for me the painting is not an insult to Zuma, it says Zuma is an insult TO US. If that would be the ‘message’ of the painting, would that infringe on Zuma’s dignity?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Thomas

    “The Goodman Gallery told artist Brett Murray it would not be showing one of his work’s in his latest exhibition because it might offend Muslim and Jewish viewer”

    Thomas is right. I can’t really comment on the Muslim aspect. What I will say that it is ironic indeed that the Goodman Gallery bends over backwards to defend the sensibilities of citizens the IZE (Illegal Zionist Entity), but remains silent in the face of the ongoing subversion of the Syrian Arab Republic and — to add insult to injury — permits the misrepresentation of the President’s organ as having been subject to the very same male genital mutilation protocol (MGMP) as is routinely imposed upon hapless boy-children who will one day grow up to enjoy the coveted “right of return” to a country that supplied fissile material to the regime that Mr Zuma and his comrades struggled mightily to overthrow, ultimately establishing the constitution embodying the freedom of expression upon which Murray now cynically relies!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    http://www.businessday.co.za/Articles/Content.aspx?id=172585

    “He said Mr Murray should have asked himself if he was going to offend anyone when he was painting the artwork.”

    Unfortunately as a born-again liberal I think I do not agree with that characterisation of the crux of the problem.

    Rather – had City Press appropriately censored the initial publication of the president’s spear in a widely read newspaper, had Goodman Gallery shown a little bit more common sense and emotional intelligence towards the sensitivities of the people by acting responsibly instead of inviting a confrontation – all of the above would probably have been unnecessary. It is not the artist that should have exercised self-censorship: it should have been Goodman Gallery and City Press who should have given the context and their social responsibility.

    Once it was published in City Press, given the political subtext in the painting mixed with the clear intent to humiliate, Zuma and the ANC had little choice but to over react the way they did.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 24, 2012 at 23:46 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    “I can’t really comment on the Muslim aspect.”

    LOL!

    You’re scared that someone (maybe me) will issue a FATWA on you.

    Don’t be scared – those are usually hollow threats!

  • Brett Nortje

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender says:
    May 24, 2012 at 23:46 pm

    LOL!

    I can’t see you wriggling off this hook very easily.

    For a couple of weeks your Mossad handlers are not going to think of you with a smile on their faces.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Pierre De Vos
    May 24, 2012 at 21:00 pm

    “As for the allegations about censoring works of art because of Muslim and Jewish sensitivities, if true it would expose the gallery owner as an outrageous hypocrite, at best.”

    Hypocritical but correct nonetheless. In a MULTICULTURAL democracy perhaps sometimes we need to apply good judgement and voluntarily forgo our democratic freedoms for the greater good of patriotism and NATION BUILDING.

    That is if we are not a bunch of arrogant, condescending, whiny, self-obsessed, whitish liberals.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 8:02 am

    Hey OB,

    “we need to apply good judgement and voluntarily forgo our democratic freedoms”.

    You talk such shit!!!!!!!!!!

    Speak to my lawyer – Advocate Ballem.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    What has happened to the reconciliatory spirit of Nelson Mandela, farther of our multicultural nation, who didn’t stoop to the same levels of bitterness and pettiness than City Press/Goodman Gallery even when he had more than enough reason to hate not only Whites in general but Afrikaners in particular?

    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/17/books/keller-450.jpg

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
    May 25, 2012 at 8:10 am

    “You talk such shit!!!!!!!!!!”

    It is my democratic right to do so though. And BTW I hate lawyers and racist Constitutional Experts with equal amounts of disgust.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 8:16 am

    LOL OB,

    “It is my democratic right to do so though.”

    :P

    Anyway – forgoing our freedoms is not an option.

    Those who are backward must catch up with the rest of us – not the other way around.

  • Mike

    @Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder – ” The regime that Mr Zuma and his Comrades struggled mightily to over throw”

    The ANC communist propanganda view of course.The Nat Regime was not over thrown, it had come to the conclusion that it had no credibilty with the younger white generation let alone the rest of the populace.
    We could have quite easily deteriorated into the situation that Syria is in now where an illegal and undemocratic goverment refuses to face reality.
    Yes there are outside forces supplying arms to the dissidents, but that is no different to what happened in Africa because it is after all the second biggest bussiness after oil.

  • Anita

    Its very imteresting to find another angle that the case might come to, We just have to waiit and see whether it will be argued in this way.

  • Ricky

    Actually, I do not think you can necessarily say that the gallery owner was hypocritical etc when deciding not to show a picture that could be harmful to the sensitivies of jews and muslims while at the same time allowing the Spear. One reason could be that the exhibition, Hail to the Thief II, is all about lampooning the ANC government; in this respect making fun of (or insulting or maybe both) Jacob Zuma would seem to fit whereas making fun of (or insulting) jews or muslims seems less necessary (unless, of course, you believe there is some secret cabal of jews and muslims running the current ANC government.

    Another reason could be that the cases of the Danish Cartooons and the Zapiro cartoons (among others) have shown clearly how (in my view overly) sensitive religions can be and how what is perceived as religious insults can lead to violence etc. On the other hand, there has been lot of artwork, cartoons etc making fun of (and arguably also in a harmful and offensivemanner) ANC, Jacob Zuma etc without this leading to violence, uproar etc (apart from some defamation suits by Jacob Zuma).

    Finally, maybe the gallery owner did not envisage that the painting would be considered so controversial (she said as much in her affidavit, I seem to recall). After all, there have been other paintings (or at least one, the one with Tutu’s penis as well) showing Jacob Zuma’s genitalia without much uproar.

    So, I think it is a bit rash to say that the “censuring” of pictures that might offend Jews and Muslilms necessarily makes the gallery owner hypocritical.

    Ozoneblue, please explain why “Zuma and the ANC had little choice but to over react the way they did” once the Spear “was published in City Press, given the political subtext in the painting mixed with the clear intent to humiliate”. One could argue that EXACTLY because of the political context, the ANC should have been more magnanimous – and how would that have harmed the ANC?

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Mike
    May 25, 2012 at 8:30 am

    Mike,

    “Yes there are outside forces supplying arms to the dissidents, but that is no different to what happened in Africa because it is after all the second biggest bussiness after oil.”

    Weapons is big business but coffee is the second most traded commodity (oil is #1)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    As I said on the other thread. Nelson Mandela, cannot fix South Africa, the Constitution cannot fix South Africa, Jacob Zuma cannot fix South Africa, the ANC cannot fix South Africa. The “free market” cannot fix South Africa. This army of fokken lawyers, attorneys and shysters cannot fix South Africa.

    Only everyday South Africans can fix South Africa. And for middle class whites it starts in your home by paying your maid and/or your garden boy a decent living salary including paid leave, and treating them like human beings, putting yourself in their shoes and not looking down at them like some dispensable slave. Perhaps go into the township for a change and drink a cup of tea in their homes. If you cannot afford to pay them properly then do the work your self. Learn a bit of Tswana/Zulu/Xhosa. Support Bafana-Bafana as much as you support the Boks – even although you may hate football.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 8:34 am

    Hmmm!

    “paying your maid and/or your garden boy”.

    Garden BOY, eh.

    Whatever happened to the “kitchen girl”?

    You’re just being all politically correct again, aren’t you?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
    May 25, 2012 at 8:37 am

    LOL. Pardon. You are right.

    I only use garden “services”. See how we middle class whites have now privatised even our most intimate cross-cultural experiences. Yet I will be marching with the DA for cheaper and dispensable labour next time around.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Will I be sued if I draw a picture of a lawyer crying??????

  • John Roberts

    There seem to be some really stupid people posting here.

    Governments are legitimate targets for satire and political art.

    Religious groups should not be.

    So the Goodman gallery is being sensible and not racist. The artist targeted a government not a subset of society.

    Some fuckheads just want to believe the worst and will always see this as a black vs white issue. Why don’t you all just break down in tears.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    maybe it’s the though of Zuma’s ding-dong in cyber-space that will drive even an experienced lawyer to tears!!!!

    Prof MO – did you cry when seeing that THING????

  • Mike

    @Maggs – an investment tip, there is going to be a shortage of cocoa as there is dramatic increase in demand for chocolate from chinese women.

  • John Roberts

    Ozoneblue you must have your head up your arse if you think a few whiteys supporting Bafan will solve our problems.

    I think you should all fire your servants. It’s racist for whites to employ blacks in such demeaning capacities as toilet cleaner, underpants washer (do you leave the skids on ?) and scrubber of dirty floors.

    The 2 million unemployed ( and a durther 5 million dependants) that will result from this can go ask fucking Zuma for money.

  • Mike

    @John Roberts – you are 100% correct and what the ANC are doing is to play the devide and rule game but along racial lines hence the Judges pertinent remark made in the currect context of SA which went over Pdv’S head about the three black artisits opposing the application.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Mike
    May 25, 2012 at 8:51 am

    Mike,

    Kopi luwak from the poop of the Asian Palm Civet is an option.

    Chocolate from chinese women – I’ll skip!

    :P

    p.s. the tip is noted – thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Ricky
    May 25, 2012 at 8:34 am

    An insult to one, is an insult to all. Where have you heard that before?

    You must live somewhere in lala-lala land if you do not even begin to understand why black people in general would feel offended by that painting irrespective of their political views.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 8:54 am

    JR,

    “I think you should all fire your servants. It’s racist for whites to employ blacks in such demeaning capacities as toilet cleaner, underpants washer (do you leave the skids on ?) and scrubber of dirty floors.”

    Pah!

    You’re just pissed off cos in Manley it’s all do-it-yourself.

    We told you, begged you, not to go.

    You’ll be back!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 8:54 am

    Thanks for reinforcing my point. You should post here more often.

  • Sine

    @Maggs and Thomas

    Wait a minute. I was not peeved when Maggs raised that. Here is my response below which I gave at “Sine says: May 24, 2012 at 13:36 pm”:

    “I do not know what was contained in the other painting and I will not speculate on its contents, let alone how it would have amounted to an offence to Muslims and Jews, but this one of Zuma is directed to one man, not African people.”

    I must confirm that I stand by this response in respect of the Muslim/Jewish painting.

  • Mike

    @Ozone blue – Up and till the 1980’s soccer was big in SA far bigger than rugby,I will name some of the teams, ,Durban City,Durban United, Addington,Germisten Callies,Hellenic, Macabe, Cape Town City,Highlands North and yes even Bloemfontein Celtic, and so on and so on.
    What has happened sonny boy is that minorities, particularly white minorties, have been excluded from professional soccer.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike
    May 25, 2012 at 9:02 am

    I’m sorry that is utter rubbish. “Minorities” where excluded because of Apartheid. The same way the people in townships are still part of a different nation than the one living in the suburbs.

    Fuck a “white tax”. It would achieve nothing, young middle class whites should rather do compulsory community service in Alex/Diepsloot/Cape Flats for a minimum of two years.

  • Mike

    @ozoneblue – you are talking crap.Soccer was the dominant sport amonst white primary schools in this country even in a place like Bloemfontein.I played soccer and rugby together right throughout high school and surprise surprise even in the Army which included a game in southern Angola before the Portuguse pulled out in 1974/1975.

  • John Roberts

    Ozoneblue …”You must live somewhere in lala-lala land if you do not even begin to understand why black people in general would feel offended by that painting irrespective of their political views”

    Bullshit man. He’s everybody’s president not just blacks. So why am I not offended ? Aaaaah … I see … must be because I’m a racist. The only people “offended” are the illiterate masses that the ANC whips up into a racial frenzy because it suits their agenda. You should be more ofended by the pics of black teens with their tits hanging out in Drum magazine. Why aren’t you ?

    What you are saying is that blacks don’t understand legitimate government criticism when expressed in a crude, satirical form.

    Ask Irvin Khoza’s daughter who had an illegitimate bastard with Zuma if he keeps his cock in his pants and only shows it to his wives.

    Zuma shows his cock to any young girl willing to look. Fact . So the painting is apt. Fullstop. Get a fucking life and worry more about the masses going uneducated with no text books because or president cares more about fucking than about them. The ANC is manipulating you. You can’t even argue cogently.

  • Ricky

    Ozoneblue, you do not answer why ANC had to react as they did.

    And I actually think that it is quite primitive to see all black people as one homogenous group that would necessarily view The Spear in the same way.

  • John Roberts

    @Maggs

    You’ll be back!

    I’m back already (but just visiting)

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Sine
    May 25, 2012 at 9:01 am

    Hey Sne,

    “Wait a minute. I was not peeved when Maggs raised that.”

    Sne – I hope you’re not going to :cry: as is fashionable these days! :P

  • John Roberts
  • Mike

    @ John Roberts – a crude but honest observation. This issue of Brett Murray’s painting was right up the ANC propanganda alley especially in view of the fact that it was painted by a white person and I think the earlier painting by the black artist two years ago must now be pushed into the public domain by City Press and lets see what the reaction is.

  • Sine

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go! says:
    May 25, 2012 at 9:31 am

    LOL. Relax Maggs. I am not that trivial (most times).

  • Zoo Keeper

    Prof

    I agree with your analysis, I don’t think the ANC is going to even get out of the starting blocks.

    As for the judge’s questions, they are perfectly reasonable, the ANC is making this a race issue and denigration of a “culture”. That the advocate couldn’t answer him says everything about the ANC’s argument.

    I think the judge was right to have a go at Mailindi and expose the pathetic race argument as a fraud.

    The Goodman Gallery can deiced what it wants hung up. But it cannot claim its a bastion of freedom of expression if it is afraid of offending Muslims or Jews.

    Since when do religious sensitivities get a special reverence?

    Religion is an idea, and like any ideas it should be open to question, even ridicule.

  • Mike

    @ozoneblue – Here on the East Rand I walk for execrise and along the way I witness litter being hurled out onto the sidewalks from taxi’s and I regularly approach the municipalities to send to clean up the roads.I have approached the taxi’s on this matter only for them to just ignore me and to carry on eaxcactly in the same manner.
    Dennis Beckitt did a TV programme about a squatter camp in Butterworth where they were to lazy to dig long drop toilets, they just shat in the veld.
    Sorry buddy no young white should be forced to go and work in a place where the people have not got pride to clean up after themselves.
    Go and travel in Mozambique and Zimbabwe and see if their villages look like our pig styes

  • John Roberts

    I see nothing wrong with people being offended by the painting. Not everybody is an elitist liberal.

    BUT … be offended as a South African because it depicts the South African president that way.

    Don’t bring your small-brained crap about culture and race into the equation.

    Because that offends those with brains and the ability to think for themselves.

  • Mike Ambassador

    WRT to offence to Muslims and Jews was it against their culture or their religion? If religion the Bill of rights says:

    16. Freedom of expression (Sub section 1)
    C – freedom of artistic creativity;

    The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­
    C – advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or RELIGION,

    So the Goodman gallery was correct in not displaying it.

  • Mlu

    Prof, I am a noble man, with no legal training at all and as such I often read your blog in order to be informed and to get your critical analysis. The line of questioning by the Jugde, left me wondering if at all, he understood what the legal aurgumnet was all about. I tried hard to understand where his questioning was leading to and failed miserably, I am left wondering if this man is fit to be Judge in a democratic South Africa. Can you elaborate more on the conduct of the Judge?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Mule

    “I am left wondering if this man is fit to be Judge in a democratic South Africa”

    Mlu is right. It is about time that we turn the racial debate about the painting into a racial debate about the courts.

    So: the harassment by an Afrikaner judge of sensitive black counsel underscores once again the urgent need for the TRANSFORMATION of the South African bench. I was especially disturbed to see Judge Claassen bullying Adv. Malinda into conceding that the so-called “art” was not a racial matter at all. I say that Claassen’s cynical logic-chopping, puerile pettifogging, and most especially the diversion of substantive arguments into procedural side-tracks, is alien to authentic AFRICAN jurisprudence!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Mike Ambassador

    The painting would have had to amount to advocacy of hatred.

    Offense does not equal advocacy of hatred. Challenging a religious idea or aspects of a religion does not amount to hatred.

    The religious must learn to deal with offense too.

    Saying :”The Torah is a load of rubbish” is very different to saying: “Jews must be destroyed because they are locusts.” Disagreeing with a religious idea does not vault it into advocacy of hatred.

    But the religious are often not shy of advocating hatred of those who do not think like them. What about passages in religious works which actually do advocate hatred of the infidel, philistine, non-believer (call it what you will).

    Should such passages in religious works be censored? Now there’s a thought worth exploring…

  • Sine

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender says:
    May 25, 2012 at 10:26 am

    LOL. Somehow there’s an interesting argument in your post albeit put in a funny manner. I agree with you that people are clouding the real issues by trying to shift our focus to irrelevant ones in The Spear saga. Once again, that painting is directed to the most powerful man in our country and his insavoury behaviour. As much as I respect the rights of those outside court to be there, they are nonetheless focusing on trivial matters whilst serious matters are left unchecked. How dumb!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Mlu

    The judge was questioning the ANC’s argument. It was the ANC who raised the matter of race, not the judge.

    The judge needs to know the full basis of the argument, hence his challenge to the advocate.

    If the ANC had a valid argument the advocate would have been able to comfortably stand his ground and answer the judge with a well-reasoned answer.

    The judge’s questions were pertinent and correctly made.

  • Brett Nortje

    Ricky says:
    May 25, 2012 at 8:34 am

    Please, Ricky!

    This time you simply do not pass the giggle test.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Zoo Keeper
    May 25, 2012 at 10:34 am

    Hey ZooKy,

    “If the ANC had a valid argument the advocate would have been able to comfortably stand his ground and answer the judge with a well-reasoned answer.”

    So he applied the Judge Cameron principle.

    Waaaaa, waaaaaa, waaaaaa!

  • Mike

    @Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder – What a racist argument and as I said before confirmation that you are a hypocrite.
    The judge very quickly exposed the Advocates argument for what it was and that was an attempt to play the race card once again.
    Young blacks must take note that the future is theirs and the developed world is not going to swallow this crap of race.

  • Brett Nortje

    John Roberts says:
    May 25, 2012 at 8:48 am

    Are you arguing Israel is ruled by rabbis not a state governed by an elected government?

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 25, 2012 at 10:26 am

    Mossad Guy,

    “@ Mule”

    Mule? Mule??

    You meant ass, didn’t you!!!!!!!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 9:58 am

    Hey JR,

    “Because that offends those with brains and the ability to think for themselves.”

    Let’s see who that leaves out – I’ll think about it and revert soonest.

    Ok – got it.

    OB,
    Dmwangi,
    Mule,
    Zuma,
    Ozone Guy,
    The lawyer,
    ok all the lawyers,
    fishermen (not really – just threw that in for good measure),
    Mr Ozone Blue,
    JSC,
    MPs,
    Ozone Zone,
    The Handbook Brigade,
    hehehhe – there’s one who lied about god nominating him to a very high position,
    Some more.

  • Mike Ambassador

    Good Points Zoo Keeper, I always just give religion a pass as I feel it’s unimportant in my life perspective, however maybe they need to be challenged. I suppose if I lived in Iran or Saudi for example where religion is in your face all the time maybe I would think differently.

  • Brett Nortje

    Brett Nortje says:
    May 25, 2012 at 10:44 am
    John Roberts says:
    May 25, 2012 at 8:48 am

    “Are you arguing Israel is ruled by rabbis not a state governed by an elected government?”

    Now, if you are, are we supposed to swallow it – if those mad rabbis conduct the state functions of the theocracy of Israel in a way that would be patently unjust to any objective observer – and not make adverse comments?

    Is that the standard we are supposed to apply to the mad mullahs in Teheran? Have you previously argued that it should be?

  • Vulo

    If the artist meant to direct a painting to Zuma as a person and the some viewers of the painting feel it’s not about Zuma for some reasons, e.g. If Zuma is a polygamist then that translate to Zuma being a philanderer, then surely he must realize he inadvertently was insensitive to African culture and withdraw the painting.

  • John Roberts

    Brett ..”Are you arguing Israel is ruled by rabbis not a state governed by an elected government?”

    No. I was speaking in the South African context and as a person who has not seen the art “pulled” by the gallery

  • John Roberts

    Vulo

    What kak you speak. It’s not just Africans who believe in polygamy. Mitt Romney who is running for US president is a mormon and they embrace polygamy and are white.

    It’s because the ANC keeps you on a diet of racial hatred and not a diet of education and upliftment that you don’t know these kinds of things.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mike

    @Vuyo – we live in a globalised village so why should African culture not be criticised, or does BMW and Merc which the ANC are so fond of make a special African edition.(include Johnny Walker as well)

  • Peter Rabbit

    Ahem … ozoneblue and all the other black cultural champions .. take a look at this ..

    http://www.esa.co.za/escorts/viewEscort.php?uid=5545

    here is a young black beauty prostituting herself on the internet with naked pictures that the whole world can see. Why are you not offended at this blatant attack on black culture ? Why aren’t you up in arms blogging and ranting ?

    Whats really offensive is that this young beauty is forced into this way of life because she has a government that is not interested in her as a person. She had no text books at school. Money meant for her was stolen by Zuma’s cronies most probably. It should sicken you but I bet it doesn’t.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Vulo

    What is “African” culture? Africa is a very big and diverse place. Do you speak for the continent?

    Besides, African art abounds with genitalia, this is by no means insulting or un-African as you put it. Merely it shows a lack of knowledge about African art.

    Even the cave paintings show hunters running around with their poky bits sticking out.

    You must clearly state where the supposed un-African bit comes in. Personally I can’t anything to back up those claims.

  • Vulo

    @ JR: The fact that polygamy is also a culture in other races or countries does not invalidate that it is an African culture and that does not give you a right to be insensitive to it.

  • John Roberts

    @Vulo May 25, 2012 at 11:34 am

    Sorry mate but that’s gotta be among the dumbest responses I’ve ever seen in my life. What percentage of black south africans do you think are polygamists ?
    It’s the minority I bet you. If it’s such an african culture why aren’t more blacks engaging in it ? Remember that cannabilism was/is also an african culture. Do you agree with cannabilism ?

  • Mike

    @John Roberts – I have also asked Vuyo on another blog about the African culture of female genital mutilation and still await a reply.
    The ANC readily hold up China as a panacea for our problems so why not the draconian one child policy.

  • John Roberts

    There is an extraordinary modern idea that we should “respect” other people’s beliefs. Often it is suggested that we should “respect” Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions, simply because they are old, or have lots of followers.
    This shows a basic lack of understanding of what a free society is. A free society is one in which you have the right to believe nonsense, and I have the right to call it nonsense. You don’t have to “respect” my stupid beliefs. And I don’t have to “respect” yours. But we both must agree to leave the other alone to believe what they want in peace. So many so-called “liberals” fail to understand this basic building block of a western liberal society.

    People who insist on cultural respect should be told quite clearly that our citizens have the legal right to criticise, lampoon, ridicule and mock Zuma to their heart’s content, in any way that they wish: that Zuma and blacks have no special claim to protection from the rough and tumble of post-Enlightenment intellectual, political and social life. If they cannot live in a society in which this is the case, they should go somewhere else”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Mike: “Young blacks must take note that the future is theirs”

    Mike, remember, the young blacks are young. They have a lot to learn.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    Maggs, I heard that the IZE is still run by hyper-orthodox RABBITS (white.)

    Is there any truth in this?

  • Vulo

    @JR: I give up!!! Rationality is a concept which seems to escape you. I am out.

  • Mike

    @Mikhail Dwrokin Fassbinder – any young person is young.

  • Mike

    @Vuyo – the only culture I will respect is that which relates to food and wine but does include a mutton “bunnie”and a beer on a rainy day in Durban.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 11:55 am

    There are so many internal inconsistencies in the rubbish you posted there even Dawkins and Hitchens (peace be upon his soul) would agree.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Zoo Keeper
    May 25, 2012 at 11:33 am

    “Vulo

    What is “African” culture? Africa is a very big and diverse place. Do you speak for the continent?”

    Good PdV form. You TELL Africans how they should feel and what they must believe. If they don’t immediately respond with “Ja Baas” you make a funny painting of their extraordinary large penises and hang it up in an art gallery.

    It is liberal and progressive.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Peter Rabbit
    May 25, 2012 at 11:32 am

    “Money meant for her was stolen by Zuma’s cronies most probably.”

    Hell if they are black they must be a “cronie of Zuma” – all blacks look the same.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ JR

    “Often it is suggested that we should “respect” Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or other religions, simply because they are old, or have lots of followers.”

    Christianity is the oldest of world religion, and has the most followers. (More than 80% of our people are Christians.) That is why I demand that the long-standing Afro/Christian proscription upon the public presentation of presidential penises be perpetuated.

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 25, 2012 at 11:15 am

    All I have noted she is wearing a Hijab. There must have been a patriarchal Muslim penis leading her around on a leash.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 25, 2012 at 12:27 pm

    “Christianity is the oldest of world religion.”

    LOL. In fact Hinduism is by a far stretch “the world’s oldest religion”. I’m shocked and disappointed now, how can you be so poorly informed?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#History

  • Peter Rabbit

    @ozoneblue

    “…Hell if they are black they must be a “cronie of Zuma” – all blacks look the same.”

    You gotta be really thick. All government employees (i.e. cronies of Zuma including white scum in government) look the same. Did I say black cronies ?

    Get a decent education meneer.The ozone layer is not about to disappear anytime at all by the wy.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Peter Rabbit
    May 25, 2012 at 12:45 pm

    “The ozone layer is not about to disappear anytime at all by the wy.”

    Nowhere did I say that. I was referring to inevitable disappearance of the OZONE HOLE.

    Drivelling moron.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mike
    May 25, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    Mike,

    “@Vuyo – the only culture I will respect is that which relates to food and wine but does include a mutton “bunnie”and a beer on a rainy day in Durban.”

    Another one with an ultra refined palate!

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 13:09 pm

    Hey OB,

    “I was referring to inevitable disappearance of the OZONE HOLE.”

    That’s good news.

    And here we all were thinking that the “OZONE HOLE” was getting BIGGER!!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    May 25, 2012 at 13:15 pm

    I fully expect the DA to roll out a counter march to defend our freedom of speech. Perhaps they can rent another (hopefully more robust) crowd at the CT labour brokers for cheap.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Gwebecimele
    May 25, 2012 at 13:15 pm

    LOL Gwebs!

    “The other Cosatu”.

    Oh well – maybe they will start COPING soon.

  • Gwebecimele

    Where is AK, THE DEFENDER of greedy executives.

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=172647

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com
    May 25, 2012 at 13:17 pm

    In fact it is shrinking. Mostly because Western women and gayish men are using less hair spray since the early 70s.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-aerosols-still-bad

  • John Roberts

    @Vulo

    How would you feel if the president contracted AIDS and died the next time he decides to stick his dick in a friend’s teenage daughter ? Would that be a proud cultural moment for South Africa ?

    Surely that’s a security risk for the country ?

    So the artist is actually looking out for South Africa by bringing this issue into the broader public discourse. He’s a patriot. He wants better than the scum we currently have running the country.

  • John Roberts

    @Vulo

    And by the way it’s not the polygamy that’s an issue.It’s the extra-marital philandering that’s an issue for most South Africans. Without a condom. And Zuma’s wives have just gotta shutup and take it on the chin. Have they no rights ? The right not to be infected by AIDS from their husband’s extramarital unprotected philandering ? The right to a faithful marriage ? No … Zuma does that to them because the are black and because they are women. No white chick would put up with that shit. That is the exact kind of sexual patriachy that the artist was trying to comment on.

    If you already have a harem of wives why the heck would you haver sex outside of your marriage ? Or is that also a cultural issue ? Do you not frown on extra-marital unprotected sex by the leader of the moral regeneration movement ? In fact I am so outraged by our president’s actions that I am going to paint a picture of him with his cock hanging out and dripping with venereal chancres and pus and his body ravaged by AIDS scabs and sores and coughing up mucus from his secondary TB infection.

    Because I’m a patriot.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 14:09 pm

    Hey JR,

    “And Zuma’s wives have just gotta shutup and take it on the chin”

    This is a family blog!!!!!!!!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    p.s. “Because I’m a patriot.”

    Liar – you abandoned us for not-so-greener-pastures!

  • John Roberts

    @Maggs
    pa·tri·ot/ˈpātrēət/

    Noun:
    1.An automated surface-to-air missile system designed for early detection and interception of missiles or aircraft.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 13:56 pm

    Maggs says there are a couple of of typos in there.

    “He wants better than the [spineless] scum we currently have [chicken] running from the country.”

    Aren’t you not happy in Aus?

  • Gwebecimele

    The invoice that Nazir left in the letter box.

    Can we get a name (the official to walk the red carpet) now, for the wage subsidy before implementation. It helps to have faces next to these bonanzas of buy one get many.

    http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55168:gauteng-road-project-escalated-by-r83bn&catid=118

  • Ricky

    Brett N, what do you mean by (or maybe rather what do you refer to by) your very insightful “Please, Ricky! This time you simply do not pass the giggle test.”

  • John Roberts

    @ozoneblue

    Aren’t you not happy in Aus? Yes, I aren’t not happy. But I am happy.

    As long as I own property in South Africa and maintain buiness interests here which employ blacks and grow the economy I’ll live wherever I fucking please.

    I probably pay more tax here still in a month than you earn in 10 years so I’m entitled to have my say wherever I live.

    Now kindly go out and buy yourself a good Thesaurus.

  • Gwebecimele

    “In the context of the heat around the publication of a cartoon of Prophet Mahomed by a Danish cartoonist some seven years back, the decision by the Mail and Guardian to publish this, Ferial Haffajee, now editor of the City Press said at the time reflecting on this incident on 24-05-2010:

    “My gentle brother made me understand, for the first time, that freedom of expression was not absolute, no rights were. Rights have to be balanced against responsibilities, not doing harm, causing offence and understanding social mores”

    Now, when the City Press is asked refusing to remove this offensive and insulting portrait from the City Press web pages, the same Haffajee says:

    “As journalists worth our salt, we can’t. Besides, the horse has bolted. We published on Sunday. (Jackson Mthembu) is no paragon of virtue and neither is our president, who has done more to impugn his own dignity than any artist ever could

    “But mostly, I will not have my colleagues take down that image because the march away from progressive politics to patriarchal conservatism is everywhere

    “I am tired of the people who desire to kill ideas of which they do not approve. Besides, our morality and good practices is selective”

    The question to be asked here what is the difference between the legitimate anger of the Moslem community, and that of the African community and other decent South Africans? Whose morality is selective in this regard?

    The message here is clear all communities in South Africa have a culture, except the African people!” Blade Ndzimande

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 14:57 pm

    “As long as I own property in South Africa and maintain buiness interests here which employ blacks and grow the economy I’ll live wherever I fucking please.”

    Oh I see deep emotional links with South Africa.

    But we may soon be able to solve that problem by redistributing your capital assets to the poor. In traditional Marxism we call it the “absentee landlord” phenomena.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absentee_landlord

    It all depends which way prez Zuma is hanging after 2012.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 14:57 pm

    JR,.

    “I probably pay more tax here still in a month than you earn in 10 years so I’m entitled to have my say wherever I live.”

    Yeah maybe.

    But you don’t earn more than Dmwangi!

    And he also impresses White people – are you impressed?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ JR

    “I probably pay more tax here still in a month than you earn in 10 years”

    And Dmwangi pays more tax in an hour than you will pay in a lifetime. Yet even he does not demand to be consulted every time government changes economic policy!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 15:19 pm

    OB,

    “It all depends which way prez Zuma is hanging after 2012.”

    Hmmmm.

    I dunno if we will ever know that, now that he objects so strenuously to the public viewings!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 25, 2012 at 15:21 pm

    LOL.

    Seeing that JR and Dmwangi is just so overwhelmingly better off than the rest of us poor dumb sods I think we may at least be all be able to repay all our Apartheid debts once we have nationalized those two blue chip portfolios.

  • John Roberts

    @ozoneblue

    It all just boils down to being brighter than you and wanting a better future for my kids.

    Spin it any way you like. I’m way ahead of you. I only own residential property in which my mother lives and my business interests at least lead to employment for some. What do u do besides maintaining a childish blog about family values ?

  • Zoo Keeper

    On the “cultural” thing and Zuma, didn’t Zuma have to pay damages to Khoza for impregnating his daughter?

    Isn’t extra-marital sex then shameful in Zulu culture? Otherwise, why the damages payment?

    “It’s my culture” when its suits?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ JR

    “It all just boils down to being brighter than you”

    I can’t speak for OB, but it now seems all the more a pity that Dmwangi departed from this blog prior to your return. Like you, he is, to put it bluntly, brilliant. Also like you, he commands a business empire stretching from Beirut to Braamfontein, employing thousands a grateful blacks. The two of you should really swap business cards.

    Thanks

  • John Roberts

    @Zoo Keeper
    May 25, 2012 at 16:23 pm

    Isn’t extra-marital sex then shameful in Zulu culture?

    Only when you get caught.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 16:03 pm

    “Spin it any way you like. I’m way ahead of you. I only own residential property in which my mother lives and my business interests at least lead to employment for some.”

    Yeah, perhaps. But at least I’m hung like a 100% Zulu boy.

    And I agree I don’t do too much. Most of the time I sit around drinking kaffir beer under a tree as I stare into the distant savannah and wipe the flies out of my face occasionally.

  • malcolm

    can anyone shed light on “Tort Law” in this case?

    by the way, i reckon the reworked murray piece by the the professor should be called:

    “The Pierre”

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 16:26 pm

    Hey JR,

    It’s a long time since we got any predictions from you.

    What do you think will happen to Zuma for all his wayward behaviour????

  • John Roberts

    ozoneblue
    May 25, 2012 at 16:45 pm

    Yeah, perhaps. But at least I’m hung like a 100% Zulu boy.

    That’ll get you far in life.
    You’ve just substantiated what you refer to as stereotyping the pre-occupation of blacks with their sexual organs. Is that cultural or just white racism ?

    Loving your dicks so much has gotten Africa where it is… over-populated, poor, hungry, diseased etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

    Now run off and wank it’ll make u feel better.

  • John Roberts

    Maggs

    What do you think will happen to Zuma for all his wayward behaviour????

    He’ll be well rewarded with a 2nd term in office … perhaps even president for life if he gets his way

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    JR/Maggs

    Look, I’m the first to admit that Mr Zuma has not been the very best President.

    But I’ll tell you this: In the same circumstances, I would support him again. I mean, who could have known that a man with many wives, a history of supervising torture camps, and a Std 3 education, and plethora of corruption charges, would not be great?

  • Lisbeth

    Zoo Keeper:

    “African children were hurt when, in trying to protect himself in his rape trial, Msholozi denied the father-daughter relationship with his rape accuser, Khwezi, who was the daughter of his late comrade.

    “The fact that Khwezi was biologically not Msholozi’s daughter did not make her less of his child – according to African culture. But when it was convenient for Msholozi, he violated this African ethic, and thus exposed his cultural nakedness to the world.

    “Msholozi rubbed salt into the wound later when news broke out that he fathered a child with Sonono Khoza, his friend Irvin Khoza’s daughter.

    “According to African culture, Sonono is Msholozi’s daughter.

    “It is this behaviour that makes us Africans exposed to others, and, consequently, ‘painted’ naked.”

    (Simphiwe Sesanti: The naked truth about our culture)

  • sirjay jonson

    You may have noticed Prof, but I’ve stayed silent doing this national frenzied debate after my initial comments at the commencement of its awareness in which I laughed myself into stitches foreseeing all the consequences. At its inception I immediately tweeted Trevor Noah. I remained quiet thereafter, then enjoyed your blog with that smiling face of yours superimposed on Zuma’s likeness. That still brings smiles to my face when I think of it.

    I also would not be disturbed about my penis hanging out in a portraiture, being like most men of inordinate self worth, quite pleased with my god given attributes, and have actually posed for sweeties’s photo snaps with similar poses.

    But may I add my support in the undeniable understanding that we have two primary cultures in South Africa, and for that matter in the rest of the world, those who support Democracy and all its tenets, and those that don’t… either for religious, patriarchal, just plain ignorance as in lack of education or awareness of history, and I include those who are only and selfishly ‘turf’ oriented, as in the criminal element.

    Youth Subsidy, Malema (who recently appeared to great applause with a Mugabe shirt on no less) eToll corruption (which is unquestionable), daily ongoing corruption, the poor who are daily pleading at my door, now that they are no longer priorities. (Does the ANC think they’ve been given qift? Yes)

    My god, even one of the known preposterous trolls bemoaning those “saintly” assholes promoting food security in rural areas (I sort of fit in that category, although not saintly at all, just ask the women in my life).

    Is there a meeting point, those who hate, and those who truly think? Not sure; I guess only time will tell. Meanwhile, at least we have rugby, die braaie, City Press, Mail & Guardian, Daily Maverick, CapeTalk your own ‘PdV’s blog’, and of course my dogs and long morning walks with the five of them in the mountains while the sun comes up. When they take off chasing an un-catch-able hare, my heart soars. Cheers.

  • sirjay jonson

    I forgot to mention the penis oriented and sidelined obscuration of the Secrecy Bill, Mdluli, Cele, Traditional Leaders Bill, revenge against Pikoli, and so many other political obscenities. Perhaps its just that we’re living in a soap opera, something far more important to some it seems, than life and the struggle to survive that all experience.

    Such a pity that those who are oppressed don’t seem to care about those who are also oppressed, and then actually denigrate those who actually do care.

  • Brett Nortje

    sirjay jonson says:
    May 25, 2012 at 18:41 pm

    Do you not discern a certain Puch-like quality there?

    “I remained quiet thereafter, then enjoyed your blog with that smiling face of yours superimposed on Zuma’s likeness.”

  • Brett Nortje

    Ricky says:
    May 25, 2012 at 14:47 pm

    I REALLY could not be bothered….

  • sirjay jonson

    Prof: I’m not sure how many years I’ve been your student via our wondrous ‘information highway’ the ability to listen, comment, participate. I know personally that I have learned a great deal from you (and hopefully continue to do so) and also the many, so many comments. I thank you all.

    Some may think I’m just one of those white (see liberal) sycophants of the Prof; I admit I’m a liberal western socialist, a Democrat, that’s true, but one who loves South Africa, and who came to settle here from a country which not that long ago, practiced Apartheid.

    I say to my fellow posters, in my limited Afrikaans.

    Wat doen jy?
    Wat sal jy doen?

  • sirjay jonson

    @Brett Nortje
    May 25, 2012 at 19:46 pm

    “Puch-like quality…?”

    Brett: I do not know this term ‘Puch-like’. Could you elaborate.

  • sirjay jonson

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 25, 2012 at 17:38 pm

    Good to see your true self expressed Fass.

  • sirjay jonson

    John Roberts
    May 25, 2012 at 17:05 pm

    I have to say, John, that I’m also one who appreciates your clear talk, even if its as different in expression as every one of us. Refreshing you are, justifiably intense; you clear, if not disrupt the brain cells of the readers in some way. Keep it up. Glad you’re back. You were missed actually. I have no doubt while in Aus, you are daily aware of what is happening in your (may I say, beloved) home country.

    I appreciate everyone who impacts me. I had a dear friend once, a Lesbian woman. She said something I’ve always remembered: ‘Thank you for touching my life’. South Africa will prevail as a Democracy. I am certain of it. Growth takes time.

    The thieves can only rule for so long… all things pass.

  • http://Www.webmail.co.za Dennis Lekaka

    Jacob Zuma’s actions as president of the country sparked controversy even though he could claim that he knows what he is doing but his actions especially appointments to the judiciary and legal related matters shows that the appointment could be cabal appointments that he could be certain about his protection after retirement.This actions however could not condone Brett Murray to tarnish his dignity as a human being let alone why Murray did not depicts one of apartheid architects still in power,the likes of Verwoed,Smuts,Vorster,Botha and De Klerk? He didn’t draw a line.It is evident that head of South Gauteng High Court was dissapointed when overlooked for the position of Gauteng High Court Judge President same pain experienced by Deputy Chief Justice.However Zuma’s actions should not detrimentalise his advocate being harshly grilled in court as if he is the one who overlooked those who wanted senior positions in the judiciary.As a black lawyer who wish to practice at High Court in the future I feel that same would apply to black lawyers as well.I call upon Black Lawyers Association to assist in preparation and appointment of revolutionary judges those who would know black person has dignity like whites. Majority of black judges are being propelled as scapegoats when sitting and deciding cases with white judges.I feel pity for what happened to Adv Malindi,it is an indication that the phrase that was used when addresing judge as ”my lord” was somehow entitle them to conducts themselves like God.They are made of blood and flesh their actions will remain being questioned.White judges should treat and respect black advocates as they want to be respected as well.

  • Brett Nortje

    sirjay jonson says:
    May 25, 2012 at 20:34 pm

    Damn. You don’t read Kipling. No matter.

    Google ‘Puch’, Sirjay. In Afrikaans we call them ‘help-my-trap’! LOL!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Dennis Lekaka
    May 25, 2012 at 21:21 pm

    “why Murray did not depicts one of apartheid architects still in power,the likes of Verwoed,Smuts,Vorster,Botha and De Klerk?”

    Hi Dennis.

    “Verwoed,Smuts,Vorster,Botha” are all very dead now.

    I’m not sure if FW could be accurately described as an “Apartheid architect”. He was more or less a demolisher of Racial Apartheid and a constructionist of Economic Apartheid.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 25, 2012 at 17:38 pm

    Well said Dworky,

    “In the same circumstances, I would support him again.”

    Me too.

    p.s. I thinking of starting a Protect-Zuma’s-P.-P. fund.

    I should remind you that campaigns to save the rhino are really campaigns to save the rhino horn, without which there would be no need to save the rhino.

    Of course P.-P. does not mean PP but it means Right to Dignity.

    Will you donate generously?

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    The chairperson of a major KwaZulu-Natal water utility was reinstated days after being rejected for a third term—and her lightning-fast comeback has been attributed to her close association with President Jacob Zuma and her position as head of the Jacob Zuma Foundation.

    A selection panel, including senior water affairs department officials, found that Dudu Myeni, chairperson of the Mhlathuze Water Board since February 2006, should not be reappointed because “she would bring instability back into the board and was at the centre of the current crisis and disharmony” at the utility.

    This was an apparent reference to a Special Investigating Unit (SIU) investigation into alleged maladministration, abuse of state resources, unfair dismissal of staff, noncompliance with procurement and tender processes at Mhlathuze between January 2004 and September 2008, and an exodus of senior staff.

    Former Mhlathuze chief executive Silas Mbedzi said Myeni had also failed a probity test, which revealed a default judgment against her in respect of an Absa bank loan on a R3.7-million property.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-24-zuma-linked-water-boss-gets-job-back

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!

    Now here’s a possible solution to our President’s woes!

    A Japanese artist cooked his own genitals and served them to five paying diners in Tokyo to cover the medical costs, in a bizarre act to raise awareness about sexual minorities.

    Mao Sugiyama had his penis and testicles surgically removed in March and kept them frozen for two months before dishing them out — seasoned and braised — to customers at an event hall on May 13, according to postings on his Twitter account and local police.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/lifestyle/2012/05/25/japanese-man-cooks-serves-genitals-to-paying-diners

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ – Zuma must go!
    May 25, 2012 at 22:42 pm

    “has been attributed to her close association with President Jacob Zuma and her position as head of the Jacob Zuma Foundation.”

    We hear that phrase a lot nowadays. Especially in the media, just like an echo or a refrain.

    My question is thus – if all black people look the same (just like the notorious Bunny Chow Indians of South Africa), is it scientifically possible that there are some black people who are in fact NOT in close associations with our prez?

  • Brett Nortje

    I’m glad you’re steering the discussion to the ‘Bunny Chow Indian’ subspecies. I shall steer it even further from the topic.

    Maggs, do you know who did the delectable Ms Preity Zinta’s nose job?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dennis Lekaka

    “I call upon Black Lawyers Association to assist in preparation and appointment of judges those who would know black person has dignity like whites”

    With respect, Dennis, these aspirant judges have already been prepared, and are ready, willing and able to serve. The prime obstacle to TRANSFORMATION remains the JSC. This group continues in its RACIST fashion to appoint non-Africans to the bench, or to leave posts open because of the purported lack of “qualified” candidates. That is why I demand the immediate resignation of every member of the JSC!

    Thanks.

  • Mike Ambassador

    My culture has been shattered and I demand Sunday Times ban this on their website or I won’t ever visit there website again!!!!

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/ilive/2011/09/12/zulu-maidens-do-the-reed-dance-ilive#13

    sar·casm   /ˈsɑrkæzəm/ Show Spelled[sahr-kaz-uhm] Show IPA
    noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    hmm…

    I agree with some of this but I refuse to blame the artist. Goodman Gallery/City Press should have demonstrated at least some sensitivity to/understanding of the issues below.

    “Was Murray engaging in extreme dissent? Was he using art as an enclave to hide behind, where he cannot be touched? Only Brett Murray knows what his real intentions are, but all of us are seeing the devastating consequences of his action. Murray might have created a brilliant piece of art and he should rightfully take credit for it. But he needs to take responsibility for the unintended consequences for a number of reasons. First, he shows a lack of reflective awareness. One does not have to endorse the culture of another to show respect. Murray failed to foresee that many South Africans regard his painting as an attack on their culture. Even if what is portrayed is factually true, we have to consider that people might interpret the intention as a group insult. The cartoon debacle in Denmark where Mohammed was portrayed in a negative light underscores the need for people to reflect on the consequences of their actions. Secondly, Murray failed to foresee that the painting might provoke some kind of backlash. The public admission of the President that he was deeply hurt pales into insignificance against some of the very public responses.”

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/ilive/2012/05/25/unintended-consequences-no-excuse-for-lack-of-mindfulness-ilive

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “One does not have to endorse the culture of another to show respect.”

    Exactly. And even more so in a multicultural nation where we are trying to recover/heal the wounds inflicted by the racism and Eurocentric cultural chauvinism that haunts our colonial past.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 26, 2012 at 9:57 am

    Why is it that you simply cannot get this. It doesn’t matter what you think, it is for the Zulu people to decide what they find acceptable in modern context and along which route their cultural evolution should proceed.

  • Scotty

    @All
    Did JZ think of the consequences of his actions & on not using a condom with an HIV + woman?

    Did Mbeki think of the consequences of his AIDS denial & ‘affront to black culture ‘ policies on the population at large?

    And some would deny the right of an artist to get outraged about the above affront to the south African people at large! Ditto the world.

  • Mike Ambassador

    OK Mr Ozoneblue, I give them that, they can be upset, feel humiliated, et al to this work of art, but to re-act to it in the way they have is beyond me.

    What if I was a Christian Fundimentalist Queen Victoria worshipping white conservative, who only believes that sex is for procreation. Even when engaging in sex I should not enjoy it. Now the reed dance would be seriously disgusting to me, Now for example National Geographic does a piece on it and publishes it in their magazine, should I becalling for it to be banned, threatening the photographer with death and dragging them off to court?

    As you have stated we live in a multicutural society so tolerance and acceptance of things we don’t like is the order of the day, because who is going to be the judge of what is acceptable. Is it going to the majority? the powerfull tribe? the person with the most money who can hire advocates and lawyers? the person who we feel the most for (Mr Mandela)?, the 3 wise men? the Bile / Koran / Tora / et al.

    Maybe I am wrong, but this reminds me of the Larry Flynt story in the USA. He is a pornographer and insulted a very powerful evangelical pastor Jerry Falwell accusing him of having sex with his mother in a toilet (as laid out in a artistic cartoon parody). Now Mr Faiwell took him to court and ended up lossing the case, because Freedom of expression has to be absolute.

    A large group of the population in the USA are against porn and Mr Falwell was obviously insulted, but the freedom of expression has to work even when we see things we don’t agree with or dislike. As a side note Mr Falwell never had sex with his mother in a toilet, yet our president has many proven issues with his ……!

    If we cannot accept this simple Freedom then SA is to immature for our progressive constitution and we need a benevolent dictator like they have in Uganda to rule us not serve us.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Flynt

    http://library.blogs.law.pace.edu/files/2011/05/cartoon12.jpg

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 26, 2012 at 11:14 am

    “Maybe I am wrong, but this reminds me of the Larry Flynt story in the USA. He is a pornographer and insulted a very powerful evangelical pastor Jerry Falwell accusing him of having sex with his mother in a toilet (as laid out in a artistic cartoon parody). Now Mr Faiwell took him to court and ended up lossing the case, because Freedom of expression has to be absolute.”

    OK. But is that story still the same if the evangelic pastor is the son of an African-American slave – say for example, Martin Luther King? And the pornographer happens to be the son of William Luther Pierce?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OzoneBlue

    Are you saying that City Press, and the M&G yesterday, and Pierre, should not have published the “Spear” at all? Where would that leave those of us who have no access to the Goodman Gallery? All we would know is that a depiction of the President had been found deeply offensive by a certain group of people — and that, for this reason, we were not to be allowed to see it. Not only would we not see the “art” depicted for ourselves, but we could not even participate meaningfully in the debate as to whether we would be allowed to see it.

    Consider ‘Kill the Boer.’ Would your position likewise be that the song should not be either sung, reproduced, or even quoted, anywhere in the media? Thus, once a court had found that a song constituted “hate speech”, all we, as members of the public not involved in the particular controversy, would know is that there existed a song – the words of which we could never be informed — that some people found egregiously offensive.

    I think these examples demonstrate the difficulty that arises if you take seriously the principle – which is what I take you to be advancing — that the media must not published graphic material that any significant sector in society genuinely finds to be deeply, deeply, offensive.

    Suppose you live in a pluralistic country where there are many cultural, ethnic and religious groups with varied but deeply-felt sensitivities. There are only two fair ways to deal with the innumerable offenses to hearfelt sensitivities that will inevitably arise every day. One would be to instill a very close system of censorship that will, on a scrupulously even-handed basis, strive to eliminate from public discourse any depiction that makes any group extremely angry. I fear we would be left with only a thin residue of cultural expression too bland for anyone to feel strongly about. (Perhaps oils of beautiful sunsets, traffic signs, safety manuals, and ads for safe products.)

    The other option would be a laissez faire system, in which, with a very few, narrowly defined exceptions, anything goes.

    I prefer the latter.

  • Brett Nortje

    Best I’ve seen the point made.

  • vinesh

    The painting does a good job in representing the Zuma’s behavior. Zuma does not have right to complain about dignity and the like, because he shown many times he is an ass, incapable of doing the correct and right thing. He is constantly subverting the state to do his bidding, and that of his corrupt and arrogant cohorts otherwise known as his cabinet. If this philanderer of president wants respect he must earn it.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    May 25, 2012 at 23:09 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “I’m glad you’re steering the discussion to the ‘Bunny Chow Indian’ subspecies.”

    We are not a “subspecies”, wanker.

    1.2+ billion coolies and still growing strong.

    Beat that if you can you silly fart!!!!!!

  • Mike Ambassador

    ozoneblue

    May 26, 2012 at 11:38 am

    OK. But is that story still the same if the evangelic pastor is the son of an African-American slave – say for example, Martin Luther King? And the pornographer happens to be the son of William Luther Pierce?

    Sorry had to look up who William Pierce was, new knowlege everyday.

    In all honesty I would have to support the right of the Son (Pierce) to publish the parody.

    To clarify my point, would I think the parody is disgusting and insulting to Mr. King, well absolutely, however the Freedom of the Son (Pierce) to express himself has to be absolute.

    If however the son (Pierce) in the parody said Mr King had sex with his mother in the toilet and now we should kill him, that would be another story. Our Bill of rights says freedom of Expression may not incite violence.

    Do you think dragging the son (Pierce) to court, calling for him to be stoned, etc will achieve anything in a constitutional democracy with a bill of rights protecting his right to artistic expression.

    The fact that we don’t like what he is say is even more reason to protect his right to say it. Maybe next year someone does not like what your saying on your blog, then who will protect your right to say it, if a precident has been set to ban certain things we don’t like. Also again this brings in my question who will be the judge of this precident.

    Look at Zim were no one may say anything against President Mugabe, do we want to end up like them. The one Editor got into trouble for printing a picture of Pres Mugabe sleeping in parliament. The freedon of expression has to be absolute no matter how insulted we feel.

    http://www.zimeye.org/?p=32671

    Here is Section 16 for referance:

    16. Freedom of expression

    Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes ­
    freedom of the press and other media;
    freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;
    freedom of artistic creativity; and
    academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

    The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­
    propaganda for war;
    incitement of imminent violence; or
    advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

  • Mike Ambassador

    Well put Mr Osbourne.

    The Bill of rights is a good balance, I however would have removed religion out of it. If God is all powerfull he does not need a Bill or rights for protection. Also Religious organisations will beat us all day (telling us all about the sins we commit and how we will burn in hell) yet if you give it back to them, they run for the Bill of rights.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 26, 2012 at 12:26 pm

    “Are you saying that City Press, and the M&G yesterday, and Pierre, should not have published the “Spear” at all? Where would that leave those of us who have no access to the Goodman Gallery?”

    No – I said City Press and the Goodman Gallery could have published it in censored form as I explained with the example of the painting of the Canadian Prime minister which is censored on all the Canadian websites I have seen.

    Goodman Gallery could have hung [excuse the pun] it in a separate age restricted room or with some kind of veil.

    All of the above would have demonstrated a degree of sensitivity to some of these issues – but the condescending arrogance involved, the hostility and the spiteful malevolence towards Zuma/ANC only adds POLITICAL fire to the fuel. it transforms it from the artistic right to the “freedom of speech” towards a full frontal onslaught on Zuma and the ANC – the very organisation of whom the members sacrificed so much to guarantee these very freedoms .

  • Mike Ambassador

    ozoneblue says:
    May 26, 2012 at 13:47 pm

    it transforms it from the artistic right to the “freedom of speech” towards a full frontal onslaught on Zuma and the ANC – the very organisation of whom the members sacrificed so much to guarantee these very freedoms .

    Because the ANC helped (they were not the only ones, even though they push the myth there were) does that make them the Judge of what is acceptable as a right as laid down in the Bill of rights?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OB

    “I said City Press and the Goodman Gallery could have published it in censored form”

    Fair enough. Now let me ask you about nudity, not connected with a head of state, but common or garden soft-core porn. I assume you accept that many people in this country, of many different communities and ethnicities, sincerely find even mild nudity to be exceedingly offensive. Would that entail in your view that the Goodman gallery, and indeed, magazines sold retail, should publish such material only in censored form? Should we, in other words, revert to the days of nipple-caps etc, as in Scope circa 1977?

    “Goodman Gallery could have hung [excuse the pun] it in a separate age restricted room”

    While I think there may be some (perhaps even legitimate), concern about children being exposed to nudity, I am not at all sure this would have satisfied most of those who demanded that the painting not be displayed at all.

    “All of the above would have demonstrated a degree of sensitivity to some of these issues – but the condescending arrogance involved, the hostility and the spiteful malevolence towards Zuma/ANC only adds POLITICAL fire to the fuel.”

    I get the sense here, OB, that your complaint is not so much at the display itself, but more about the tone adopted by its defenders. That is a different question altogether from the question of artistic freedom.

    But to return to the latter. Have you taken a view of the work by Ayanda Mabulu,”Ngcono ihlwempu kunesibhanxo”, which some would consider even more offensive than the Spear, especially because it also depict the sainted Arch. Would your attitude about the display of that piece be any different?

    Finally, please consider my question about the ‘Kill the Boer’ song. Do you consider that hate speech? Do you accept that a significant proportion of the public finds it deeply offensive? If so, should one not, by your own logic, ban even recordings of the song from being be played? And should we not also ban publication of the lyrics?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 26, 2012 at 14:32 pm

    “Now let me ask you about nudity, not connected with a head of state, but common or garden soft-core porn.”

    But this is obviously not about nudity/pornography per se. One assumes those models are doing the nudity bit voluntarily and with full consent. Did Zuma give his consent to being depicted like this? It is about about the cultural context, exposing a 70 year old Zulu man who is the patriarchal head of his family in front of his family without his consent. I would feel offended too if my grand dad was humiliated in the mass media like that too.

    The indignation felt by Zuma is also not unique to Zulu culture. There is a well know episode in the Bible that relates the same kind of cultural taboo related to the story of Noah and Ham.

    I also see I still haven’t seen one logical response as to why the picture of the Canadian PM painting was censored on all the websites I have seen.

    http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120523/Nude-painting-of-PM-Harper-sold-for-5000-120523/20120523/?hub=EdmontonHome

    or this one:

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/nude-portrait-of-canadian-prime-minister-sparks-controversy/

    “Have you taken a view of the work by Ayanda Mabulu,”Ngcono ihlwempu kunesibhanxo”, which some would consider even more offensive than the Spear, especially because it also depict the sainted Arch. Would your attitude about the display of that piece be any different?”

    I cannot recall that painting being sensationalised in the media though. The question is then why didn’t Zuma/ANC take exception to that, since Zuma also appears semi-naked in that depiction?

    So I see I still haven’t seen one logical response as to why the picture of the Canadian PM painting was censored on all the websites I have seen.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OB

    “I still haven’t seen one logical response as to why the picture of the Canadian PM painting was censored on all the websites I have seen.”

    OB, I can only assume you have not looked very far, then. Here is one in which I see no sign of censorship: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/18/well-hung-nude-harper-painting-sparks-mixed-reactions

    There is also the nude of W Bush I posted a while back. I am surprised you are not aware that vulgar depictions of politicians is a common modes of satire.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    May 26, 2012 at 15:42 pm

    OB,

    “The question is then why didn’t Zuma/ANC take exception to that, since Zuma also appears semi-naked in that depiction?”

    That’s because, by Jackson Mthembu’s admission on 702, the ANC “did not know” about this painting.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OB

    “But this is obviously not about nudity/pornography per se. One assumes those models are doing the nudity bit voluntarily and with full consent.”

    OB, I am still trying to isolate the principle upon which you rely here. I had assumed that you were suggesting that, if a significant proportion of the public found a given piece deeply offensive, that would justify banning it. If that is indeed the operative principle, it should not logically matter one way or another WHY it is deemed offensive. There are plenty of people who would find the public display of a nude quite irrespective of whether their subject had consented thereto. I had assumed that your position is that we must respect and accommodate such sensitivity, without regard to whether we shared the rationale for that sensitivity.

    You say that “the indignation felt by Zuma is also not unique to Zulu culture.” You are correct. And that is my point. Traditional “European” culture was also offended by many manifestations of nudity. And some “whites” in this country remain deeply offended by same. But would you really want to live in a society where we are all subject to the veto of those who are sincerely offended? As I pointed out earlier, that would severely contracts public discourse.

    You say that you do not recall that Ayanda Mabulu painting was sensationalised in the media. Indeed, it was not. But why should whether something is sensationalised in the media or not be the decisive factor? By your logic, should not the Spear be banned, or at least restricted, by virtue of Zuma being offended — even if it only seen by visitors to the gallery?

    Also, please note that, had there not been such vocal opposition to the painting, it would not have been exposed in the media to nearly the same extent. In this sense, the opponents of the painting have given it a degree of attention it would never have had if they had simply ignored it.

    You say: “The question is then why didn’t Zuma/ANC take exception to [Mabulu.]” That is indeed a good question. Would you like to suggest an answer?

    Could I again ask you to comment on ‘Kill the Boer.’ Do you think that should be censored?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 26, 2012 at 16:31 pm

    Hi Michael.

    “If that is indeed the operative principle, it should not logically matter one way or another WHY it is deemed offensive. There are plenty of people who would find the public display of a nude quite irrespective of whether their subject had consented thereto.”

    But the issue here is clearly not the nude picture and the contemporary mores around nudity. It is whether the subject has consented, agreed to being “exposed” in the nude.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 26, 2012 at 16:07 pm

    “OB, I can only assume you have not looked very far, then. Here is one in which I see no sign of censorship: http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/18/well-hung-nude-harper-painting-sparks-mixed-reactions

    Yes. All we see is a fleeting glimpse of the very small Grecian aesthetic. Followed by a in depth analysis by the ginger artist and the stereotypical librarian female smelling of second-hand books and gum, explaining why children should be shielded from the tiny phallus. Then the last bit is the most disturbing with the old granny that sound so much like a man. All of that speaks of Euro-sensibility, maturity, consciousness and self-censorship.

    But as you know or may not know Freud and Adler explains it all.

    So what exactly was your point again?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 26, 2012 at 16:31 pm

    “But why should whether something is sensationalised in the media or not be the decisive factor”

    I don’t believe you are so dumb that you would even ask that question.

  • Brett Nortje

    Jy is ‘n regte farceur. Hier spandeer jy die hele dag aan die bou van die ANC se chimera.

    Is jy werklik so oneerlik?

    Gaan google eerder klein Wiehan Botes. Oral op die net sal jy detail vind van sy geboorte in Desember. Gewig, alles.

    Vertel my hoekom moet ‘ANC’ nie ‘n metatag wees by elke noem van sy naam nie?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 0:01 am

    Dit is sad. ek weet. maar die ANC is al wat jou kan red.

    Hier is ‘n nuwe tune vir jou. Skrik wakker en kom by.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hA3wvkTjopA

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    I honestly do not understand why so many people are surprised when the ANC mimics the Nats. Once we fundamental understand and agree on what actually happened in our history, the much sooner we will be able to come to a common understanding and to move forward.

    “The negotiated settlement of 1993, which led to the 1994 election, should have happened during the 1909 convention when both Afrikaner and African nationalists should have been brought together by the British to rule South Africa in partnership. The British, however, concluded that the best way to protect their mining interests in South Africa was by promoting a policy of divide and rule, for which the Afrikaner nationalists fell.

    Political elite

    By the time these two nationalist groups had reached a power-sharing settlement, South African society had been transformed so that those with political power had little economic influence and those with economic muscle had minimal political power. This is at the root of the ANC government’s inability to transform South Africa into a more dynamic and equitable society.

    The 1994 settlement created a political elite that controlled the state but did not control the economy. The previous elite, which had controlled both the state and the economy, lost political power but retained control of the economy. It is an unstable mix because those who control the economy live in fear of having their assets seized or overtaxed by the elite that controls political power. This is actually happening in South Africa through such processes as black economic empowerment that compels owners of companies to give a percentage of their assets to members of the black political elite.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-24-why-the-anc-has-failed-to-transform-sa

    Unfortunately, the rubbish, one-dimensional CRT fallacy as peddled by the author of this blog, Vice & Kie brings us nowhere closer to confronting the truth.

    “The British, however, concluded that the best way to protect their mining interests in South Africa was by promoting a policy of divide and rule, for which the Afrikaner nationalists fell.”

    Now have a closer peek past all the bullshit about the prez’s penis and note who was behind the arms deal, who is behind Anglo American and the M&G, who sponsored Julius Malema, and why the DA have the “freedom of speech” to demand cheaper labour.

  • Brett Nortje

    1) This contrived ‘outrage’ around the President-who-has-no-clothes is preparation for Mangaung, a larger version of the circus at which the top brass in the NEC were forced to appear a month ago. As always when the godless shameless ANC is under pressure the default position is racial mobilisation.
    Which always has a devastating effect on some white families.

    2) Who would have agreed to blacks being represented in the Union three years after the Bambatha Rebellion?
    Anyone? Anywhere in the world? Talk about shoot-in-the-footism…

    3) Are political elites in France one-and-the-same as the economic elites? The UK? The US? Germany?
    More simplistic simpleminded zero-sum communist scum analysis.
    The old fabian idea of a finite pie.

    All it does for me is out those who cannot think a bit abstractly.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 8:13 am

    Hmmmm!

    “The old fabian idea of a finite pie.”

    Well, G – best come to India where me and 1.2+ billion coolies have infinite bunny chow.

    p.s. you should be supporting Pres Zuma – both of you are always crying for your Mshini Wams.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, have you got that phone number for me yet? I have delicate surgery in mind for OBS.

  • Brett Nortje

    Imagine that? I must be getting old. Several blogs about penisses, and I haven’t reminded the ANC it can suck mine.

    Tsk tsk tsk.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 8:13 am

    Can I offer you a tissue, boet?

    It is really embarrassing to see a grown-up man cry like a little girl.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Couple of years from now:

    “The British, however, concluded that the best way to protect their mining interests in South Africa was by promoting a policy of divide and rule, for which the African nationalists fell.”

    Once the master plan is in place and Julius Malema/Tokyo Sexwale have killed all the boers and communists.

  • Chris (Not the right wing guy)

    “[President Zuma] has done more to impugn his own dignity than any artist ever could” – Ferial Haffajee

  • Brett Nortje

    I told you last week why the ANC has failed to deliver to South Africans – the short-sight racial Gramscians displaced the Afrikaner bureaucracy that could have done the delivery, and the effects of ‘transformation’ alienated white South Africa.

    The history of socialism is a narrative of displacement.

    Until that article I thought the wrong Mbeki had been anointed by Tambo.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 9:34 am

    Racist Whites like you are part of the capitalist master’s plan, Bret. You are like the fuel to the fire.

    Once Julius can get you useless, racist, whiny lot to fight back the time is ripe for a real African Nationalist Revolution or the NDR depending on whether you are a bona fide African.

  • Brett Nortje

    Jy het sosialistiese revolusionere teorie so ‘n bietjie gatagterstevoor.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    There seems to be quite a demand for City Press this morning.

  • Brett Nortje

    Jy kan jou dreigemente vir jouself hou – as net een kant van die dispuut die gevare insien kom dit net neer op gepoogde manipulasie. Afpersing. Se eerder die Juliass/Sexwale faksie en die oumas van Protea Glen wat het hulle om te verloor. Ek weet, maar my familie se lewens is belangriker as enigiets wat jy kan opwerp.

    As jy tjommies is met Moeletsi Mbeki kan jy hom gerus vra of hy al van die ‘Enclosure Movement’ gehoor het.

    Vra hom sommer in watter sosialistiese staat is die burokrasie nie die enigste werkskepper wat sneeubal nie…

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OB

    You said repeatedly that not one internet site shows the Ontario PM’s nude painting uncensored. I immediately pointed you to a site that did indeed show the painting uncensored. (Here is another: http://cornwallfreenews.com/2012/05/does-this-nude-image-of-canadian-prime-minister-stephen-harper-offend-you/stephen-harper-nude/)

    Now you respond, not by admitting you were wrong, but by writing about some “old granny that sound so much like a man.” This gives me to impression that you are not interested in a serious discussion on the subject.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 10:13 am

    The question is really on which side you would align. I assume from most of your posts you would side with the Malema/Sexwale/DA faction and as I said the “boers” who would be killed are those poor white trash who cannot defend themselves. The real victims are the impoverished masses who would benefit from a real socialist redistribution. But that will never happen.

    – thus BEE, AA and the Wit Gevaar.

    Mean time racist hypocrites like yourself will log into internet forums like this and keep on whining and complaining about the poverty, “failures of the ANC to deliver services”, etc. and so on and so forth but in fact you are also on the beneficiary list.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OB

    “All we see is a fleeting glimpse of the very small Grecian aesthetic ..”

    OB is sooooooo right. I have spent many days trawling the internet, and the ONLY depiction of the Ontario PM’s member I too can find is this “very small Grecian aesthetic.” So minute is this so-called phallus that it does not even NEED to be censored!

    OB – I suppose one can argue in mitigation of the PM’s shattered dignity that Toronto can be a very cold place!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2012 at 10:31 am

    hehehehehehe!

    “This gives me to impression that you are not interested in a serious discussion on the subject.”

    Prof MO – for a smart guy, it sure took a long time to reach that conclusion.

    OB should start his own blog, né!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “City Press canvassed 17 leaders in the governing ANC, alliances, provinces and leagues who said this week that they would not boycott the paper. All refused to be named.

    “I will buy two copies openly, not on the sly,” said a member of the ANC national executive committee, who also serves in government.

    Some ANC members have openly criticised their party’s boycott call.

    Nomfanelo Kota, press attaché at the South African mission in New York, posted on Facebook: “I don’t see what revolutionary cause will be achieved by not reading the City Press. The ANC taught me to be critical.

    “Re-educate me if you want to convince me.”

    She continued: “I have never followed blindly in all my years in the ANC. I don’t believe that the ANC can be threatened by newspapers, otherwise it would mean these 100 years of our movement and its values meant nothing.”

    http://www.citypress.co.za/Politics/News/Spear-divides-ANC-20120526

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    An ANC leader from Gauteng said he didn’t support the publishing of the picture, but the call for the boycott was wrong.

    “How can he (Zuma) drag the entire 999 999 members to the court over a single man’s penis?” he asked.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2012 at 10:31 am

    So you must have spent all night googling for one or two examples?

    The truth is the vast majority of websites including the bigger newspapers censored the picture of the painting?

    Why is that? Even the discussion on the first site is guided by the artist to try and explain the context. The painting is in the background little penis hidden behind her head. Then the library tannie talks about the need for censorship. And so on.

    That is more than enough evidence that is not a foregone conclusion that paintings of this nature is generally accepted in the West and that many Africans are backward and “immature” by taking exception to it.

    I get the impression, with people like yourself, that you really have no idea where we live and just how far we are from embracing typical Eurocentric liberalism as a default response to matters like this.

  • Michael Osborne

    OB, is just too for you to admit you were wrong, just on the simple matter of fact as to whether or not all sites censored to Ontario painting? And are you really not aware of the numerous nude, vulgar, obscene, humiliating depictions of Bush, Mitterand, the Holy Father the Pope, etc?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    OB is right.

    ALL websites EVERWHERE censored that picture. Also, I can assure you that there are NO pornographic depictions of ANY world leaders to be found anywhere. I have looked hard, and there is NOTHING! (Zero.)

    All of which goes to show is that The Spear is a specific, one-of-a-kind, once-off, sui generis, never-to-be-repeated, catch-it-while-you-can, special offer, of pure RACISM!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2012 at 11:15 am

    PdV posted an example of that specific instance as motivation for his insinuation that the ANC and African response is backward. I have just consistency pointed out that most Western website censored that image, in stark contradiction to City Press. The question is therefore really why did they do so?

    I have never said that vulgar paintings of politicians/leaders are wrong, that these artists must be sentenced to hard labour on RI and provocative political art must be banned. In fact good art is supposed to shock and to provoke response. I also referred to the Koos Kombuis song (Almal Kaffers) that I believe hit home at a target audience, but that I would not play to a broader multiracial audience simply because I can and I have the freedom of speech. This kind of Liberal Fundamentalism is in my view just as dogmatic and intolerant as anything fundamentalist Islam or Christianity can come up with.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozoneblue
    May 26, 2012 at 15:42 pm

    “The picture of the Canadian PM painting was censored on all the websites I have seen”

    OB, do you now wish to revise your words of yesterday?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Ok. If you want to be petty and always insist on being right. As I indicated the vast majority of websites did censor the image. Nobody has yet offered a plausible reason as to why they would want to do so in the liberal West.

    Being right is of course not going to help some people deal with the pain. Old wounds need to be torn open so that some pompous, self-rightous fucking arseholes can satisfy their obsession with exercising their rights and with being right.

    “The soft-spoken Malind told Claasen that art experts who defended the painting were arguing from the perspective of South Africa’s white, educated elite. Malindi said that in a country divided by education and culture, the court should take into account not just the opinions of a “super class” of art experts, but also the views of the many black South Africans, denied education under apartheid, who are angered and humiliated by the painting’s message. His argument drew murmurs of approval in the packed courtroom from onlookers who included two of Zuma’s children and several high-ranking ANC leaders.”

    “In court on Thursday, the debate, in measured lawyerly language, moved from race and class to what the court could do in the face of the wide dissemination of the painting on the internet. Claassen quoted a British ruling in another case that said trying to control what’s on the Internet would make the legal system appear “an a**.”

    Malindi responded that the law in South Africa, its 1996 constitution, had been earned at great cost. He said that while many of the rights the constitution enshrined – to clean water, housing – had yet to be realised by the majority of South Africans. But “the law is not an a**,” he said.

    Then, he sank into his seat in sobs that could be heard throughout the courtroom. ”

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/history-behind-zuma-s-lawyer-s-sobs-1.1305440

  • Brett Nortje

    LOL! The Internationale unravels.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, what does Mr Malema mean when he describe the Spear painting as “depicting President Zuma in a not so unusual, but unnecessary position”?

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=301632&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “Julius Malema
    Commander in chief of Economic Freedom Fighters”

    LOL

    I fully agree. Julius (Amin) Malema is a great example of how to be tolerant and democratic. You just shoot the boers and kick the white bastards together with their bloody agents out of the news conference.

  • Ze Philosopher

    I take my hat off to JR. In Zuma’s words, we shouldn’t shy away from open discussion as it fertilizes the ground for gossip. Murray’s paint says a lot about Zuma and more. I’m black and was flabbergasted at their insistence on making everything in South Africa about colour. Their arrogance at doing it and ignorance at doing it in some instances makes you question their wisdom if there’s any. It seems being black is enough weapon against whites. I fail to even comprehend why they are fully focused on this issue when they can be addressing more important issues like service delivery, the high rape rate, corruption and cronysm. As blacks under Zuma presidency we have been reduced to nothing, but one of them which hampers our growth. Transformation can only be achieved if there’s a believe that we are competent but the ruling party isn’t helping at all.Pdv- I fail to comprehend your attack on the learned Judge’s questioning of Malindi, please elaborate. One more thing, if you can’t argue the law; do you really have to cry? Is this what we have come to as a nation? Doesn’t the learned Adv Malindi know, it isn’t his emotion that matter but that of the Judge?I love my profession and it’s people like Adv who reduce us to nothing but incompetent blacks at face value of the whole world.

  • Michael Osborne

    OB

    “Nobody has yet offered a plausible reason as to why [websites would censor their nude depictions of leaders] … in the liberal West.”

    OB, let me propose the following reason why many (but by no means all), mainstream media outlets would censor highly controversial visual depictions of political leaders: They do not want to offend their corporate sponsors. And the corporate sponsors in turn care about this because they know that many of the middle class people that form their target markets are socially/and or politically conservative. It is “alternative,” smaller outlets, that are not dependent on advertising revenue, that freely publish provocative and even pornographic images of political leaders.

    Does that surprise you, OB?

  • Mike Ambassador
  • Mike Ambassador

    Well said Mr Ze Philosopher

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 27, 2012 at 17:20 pm

    “And the corporate sponsors in turn care about this because they know that many of the middle class people that form their target markets are socially/and or politically conservative.”

    Excellent. So after 30+ posts we agree and then also agree that PdVs example of the Canadian PM is in fact a non-example and that the cultural dynamics at play are very similar there.

    But just remember in the brave new world of the New Atheist and Secular Human Fundamentalism there is no place for humans who are “socially/and or politically conservative”. In such a perfect place everybody will prance around naked and f*ck like rabbits all day long as there is no God and no tomorrow.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 27, 2012 at 15:10 pm

    Dworky,

    “Maggs, what does Mr Malema mean…”

    I think he meas that Zuma can take that spear and shove it where the sun don’t shine!!!

  • Brett Nortje

    http://afrikaans.news24.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/DA-prys-Mdluli-skorsing-20120527

    DA prys Mdluli-skorsing
    2012-05-27 22:00

    Johannesburg – Die DA het die waarnemende nasionale polisiekommissaris geluk gewens daarmee dat hy die misdaadintelligensiebaas lt. genl. Richard Mdluli geskors het en opgestaan het teen “politieke inmenging”.

    Dianne Kohler-Barnard, woordvoerder, het gesê Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi moet geluk gewens word daarvoor dat hy “opgestaan het teen politici wat ly aan ‘electionitis’ deur weerstand te bied teen inmenging by die polisie en Mdluli weer te skors”.

    “Mkhwanazi het na bewering kop-aan-kop met die minister van polisie, Nathi Mthethwa, gegaan deur Mdluli se skorsingsbrief te teken en die politici te ignoreer wat hom heraangestel het. Dit is ook hoog tyd,” het Kohler-Barnard gesê.

    Mdluli se skorsing is Sondag bekend gemaak. Dit hou verband met bewerings wat na vore kom in die voortdurende hof-ondersoek na die moord op Mdluli se eks-meisie se man, Oupa Ramogibe, in 1999. Hy is ook deur aanklagte van bedrog en korrupsie in die gesig gestaar, wat verband hou met die beweerde misbruik van misdaadintelligensiefondse, die aankoop van luukse voertuie en die aanstelling van familielede. Hy is aanvanklik gekors, maar hierdie aanklagte is later laat vaar en Mdluli is in Maart vanjaar weer as hoof van misdaadintelligensie aangestel.

    Kohler-Barnard het gesê sy is ingelig dat Mkhwanazi “Mdluli uit enige en alle SAPD-geboue gesluit het en al sy SAPD-toerusting en –sleutels by hom afgeneem het.”

    “Wat logies moet volg uit hierdie optrede is ‘n onbetwisbare vloed kriminele aanklagte. Die DA hou vol dat Mdluli sy dag in die hof moet kry om te antwoord op die bewerings van kriminele optrede teen hom,” het sy gesê.

    Steve Swart, woordvoerder van die ACDP, het gesê hulle is bekommerd oor die toestand van die kriminele geregtigheidsektor, gegewe dat die geskorste nasionale polisiekommissaris, Bheki Cele, nou ‘n verdoemende verslag teen hom het.

    “Die vraag kom op oor waarom Nathi Mthethwa, minister van polisie, na bewering verseker het dat Mdluli se vorige skorsing opgehef is, veral wanneer bewerings wat verband hou met die misbruik van R300 miljoen se fondse aan die lig gekom het… dit is baie kommerwekkend,” het hy gesê.

    Kohler-Barnard het gesê indien die diens deur “nog ‘n loopbaan-politikus met geen ervaring in die polisie nie bestuur word, sal dit verby rampspoedig wees. Die SAPD moet bestuur word deur ‘n loopbaan-offissier wat die krag het om die Diens te bestuur soos dit hoort,” het sy gesê.

    – Volg Nuus24 op Twitter

    – SAPA

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 27, 2012 at 22:43 pm

    You see. This is how it is to live under a brutal Stalinist dictatorship with a bestial Zulu patriarch controlling and manipulating everything.

  • Brett Nortje

    What I see is a career policeman who has decided he’ll be damned if he is going to be the third ANC-appointed Commissioner of Police in a row to spend 15 years behind bars for corruption.

    His mama didn’t produce dumb children!

    Bros before hos only gets you to the slammer’s gates….

    Did yesterday not leave you with a lot of hope?

    I got the sense from all over that the Godfather and the Inkosi were being told from all over:
    ‘Tsa!!!’

  • Mike Ambassador

    And the Spear is off the City Press Website ……….. Freedom of Expression in this country my @ss!!! This is a sad day for SA, I think we have taken a massive step backwards. You get the government you vote for, so please citizens no more complaining just sit back and take it.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike Ambassador
    May 28, 2012 at 8:36 am

    “And the Spear is off the City Press Website”.

    We honour Victoria and Griffiths Mxenge today. Victoria was a loving mother and a grieving widow at the time when she was ruthlessly assassinated. Griffiths, a dedicated husband and father had been barbarically murdered a little earlier – this was no ordinary killing: his body had been so savagely mutilated that it is not appropriate to go into detail here. Both these wonderful people were without doubt formidable lawyers, fierce brave warriors in the war against apartheid, good friends and, perhaps most importantly, caring human beings. …

    We honour Victoria and Griffiths Mxenge today. Victoria was a loving mother and a grieving widow at the time when she was ruthlessly assassinated. Griffiths, a dedicated husband and father had been barbarically murdered a little earlier – this was no ordinary killing: his body had been so savagely mutilated that it is not appropriate to go into detail here. Both these wonderful people were without doubt formidable lawyers, fierce brave warriors in the war against apartheid, good friends and, perhaps most importantly, caring human beings. …

    I may add finally that the African National Congress was at that time not in government and was therefore a classic non-governmental organisation appropriately representative of the majority of civil society. …

    Griffiths Mxenge was severely butchered, tortured and murdered in the middle of November 1981. Victoria was shot dead outside her home some four years later. Both murders were carefully planned and timed. They were committed some 20 years after the many organisations of the people, including the African National Congress, were banned and forced into exile. …

    The role of Griffiths and Victoria Mxenge as lawyers is legend. We know that the so-called justice system of old was shamelessly used by the regime in its effort to destroy the democratic instinct, urge and struggle. The Mxenges left no stone unturned in ensuring that every effort to hijack the legal system was thwarted with every fibre in their being. Every trial of a cadre was vigorously defended, however unpopular the cause and regardless of the effort required. We must today not allow the law to be used as an oppressive tool by anyone. We must fight every move to do so.

    http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/9th-victoria-and-griffiths-mxenge-memorial-lecture-justice-zack-yacoob/

  • Mike Ambassador
  • Brett Nortje

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=172725

    PETER BRUCE: The Thick End of the Wedge — The Editor’s Notebook

    In the national interest I think Ferial Haffajee should remove the picture from the City Press website

    PETER BRUCE
    Published: 2012/05/28 07:13:23 AM

    IF YOU’VE ever thought how brilliant it might be to own a newspaper, spare a thought this morning for Koos Bekker, the CEO of Naspers , the owners of City Press. A few years ago it was an also-ran, a poorly edited and rather bleak Sunday paper aimed at middle-class Africans. Today it is the centre of the known media universe in this country, the object of a hate-filled boycott led by the ruling ANC and its government and adored by a significant band of readers who you could classify as “new” South Africans.
    It is now edited, with considerable genius, by a woman, Ferial Haffajee, who is not an African at all. With lots of support from her bosses, she has quite fearlessly rebuilt the newspaper in her own image — making it more open to debate and to non-Africans — and become probably the country’s first celebrity editor in the process. The electronic media loves her and she loves them back. Thoughtful, conciliatory and gentle, she is, for an editor, wildly popular. This is Koos Bekker’s problem, because Ferial has now planted him firmly in the political spotlight by refusing to bend to ANC demands that she remove from the City Press website a photograph of the painting of President Jacob Zuma with his genitals hanging out of his trousers.

    I don’t think she should ever have put the picture up in the first place. It was a clear and conscious decision, though, and you could almost plot what was going to happen. In 1999, as editor of the Financial Mail, I also incurred the wrath of the ANC by endorsing Bantu Holomisa (“Put This Bantu Back in his Place” ran my oh-so-witty cover) in that’s year’s election — the result was the most harrowing two months of my professional life.

    With hindsight, as I am sure she will find, it was not worth it. You survive. Time passes. Nothing changes. The Holomisa thing will make it into my obituary, if anyone bothers to write one. The president’s penis will be in hers.
    But as Zuma’s supporters prepare to march on the Goodman Gallery in Johannesburg tomorrow to “defend” the ANC as its leaders have called on them to do (in Alliance speak this can involve the throwing of rocks so let’s hope the gallery is insured) the space in which this issue can be dealt with calmly is shrinking.

    Although the original painting has been defaced, the City Press website continues to show it. Koos Bekker’s problem is that his star editor cannot now take it down in the face of threats, no matter how severe, without looking like a coward. Had Zuma’s advocate not broken down in court the other day, the judges might have come to his (Bekker’s) rescue by ordering it removed, which would have had the beneficial result of making the newspaper look like a victim and Zuma triumphant. Alas, it has been delayed.
    It isn’t, of course, the newspaper that matters. It’s MultiChoice, Bekker’s huge and incredibly profitable pay-TV business that keeps Naspers as profitable as hell here that matters. And MultiChoice lives off a licence regulated by, um, Jacob Zuma’s government. What to do?

    In my humble opinion, Bekker would be within his rights to ask his editor to remove the threat to the wider business, though it would do his image as an amiable publishing wizard little good. But there are palpable signs of his unease. Naspers could have dramatically raised the print run of City Press in the face of the ANC boycott threat yesterday but it didn’t and the paper sold out in many areas it normally doesn’t.

    And with every new threat, Ferial’s instinct not to be pushed around will harden. She can be fierce, if at times disapproving — she whipped up the moral posse that cost journalist-cum-socialite Kuli Roberts her column on Sunday World and it would probably have been the same compulsion that carried the presidential penis onto her website.

    But the issue and its resolution one way or the other lies now in her hands.
    Zuma won’t help. He has been strengthened by the row over the painting and looks more politically assured than ever. He and his advisers have cynically used it to their benefit.

    The true story of his Presidency, though, was laid bare on the front page of the Sunday Times yesterday — a school in Limpopo where children are still taught under trees. There are many of those around the country.

    The fact is that, his private life aside, Zuma has failed this nation many times over and the painting row means he might get to carry on doing so for another seven years. It is an unbearable prospect, and in the national interest
    I think Ferial Haffajee should remove the picture from the City Press website.

  • Mike Ambassador

    Under the EVIL NP Government who we universally HATE ……. slippery slope we are now stepping onto not?:

    The power to ban publications was held by the minister of the interior under the Publications and Entertainments Act of 1963. Under the act a publication could be banned if it was found to be “undesirable” for any of many reasons, including obscenity, moral harmfulness, blasphemy, causing harm to relations among sections of the population, or being prejudicial to safety, general welfare, peace, or order of the state. Thousands of books, newspapers, and other publications were banned in South Africa from 1950 to 1990.

  • Mike

    @ozone blue – go and read the story of the murder trial of Shamilea Ahmed in the The Daily Telegraph UK to get a perspective about “it’s my culture” instead of being like a little boy playing matches with Marxist/Leninism and yes I know that fool Mike Sutcliffe in Durban very well because I went to school with him at Amanzimtoti.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    And so the vociferous campaign against Jacob Zuma and his “left-leaning” allies continue.

    First of all it was the ANC who catapulted the painting into the “public sphere” when City Press published it uncensored in it private newspaper and the very even more private Internet. (Perhaps she confesses that she lives shielded in her elitist lifestyle and that her “private” space i.e. the Internet is inaccessible to the populist, uneducated masses)

    Then – remember, the prez remains tainted with the smear of rapist cause it was the evil conspiring Muduli that found him to innocent of that crime in 2006 and not a court of law.

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-05-28-anc-vs-city-press-what-lies-beneath

    It was the ANC/Zuma who caused all this trouble despite the fact that apparently we realise now:

    “But I do think that it would be naïve of me not to acknowledge that, beyond the ANC, the artwork has exposed the hostility of a divided nation.”

    No shit, Sherlock. Even a racist White guy could have told you that.

  • Mike Ambassador

    How proud the ANC must be today:

    The banning of organizations or of individuals was originally authorized by the Suppression of Communism Act of 1950, with many subsequent amendments; these laws were superseded by the Internal Security Act of 1982, which retained nearly all their provisions. The definitions of communism and of the objects of communism were very broad and included any activity allegedly promoting disturbances or disorder; promoting industrial, social, political, or economic change in South Africa; and encouraging hostility between whites and nonwhites so as to promote change or revolution. The main organizations banned under these laws were the Communist Party of South Africa, the African National Congress (ANC), and the Pan-African Congress

    Documenting the censorship of the apartheid regime
    Although grimly menacing, the magnitude of censorship and banning of expressions in South Africa during the apartheid regime seems truly paranoid. The comprehensive list of banned items included any object carrying an ANC-symbol; buttons, T-shirts and lighters etc. as well as objectionable literature, folders, posters, films, etc.

    During 3 years police and soldiers terrorised townships, destroying black squatter camps and detaining, abusing, and killing thousands of Africans, while the army also continued its forays into neighbouring countries.
    The government tried to conceal the atrocities by banning television, radio, and newspaper coverage, but international criticism and actions were growing

    More than 2,000 people were banned in South Africa from 1950 to 1990, labelled a communist or terrorist, or otherwise a threat to security and public order. The banned person would in effect be a public nonentity; confined to his or her home; not allowed to meet with more than one person at a time (other than family), hold any offices in any organization, speaking publicly or writing for any publication. Also barred from certain areas, buildings, and institutions, such as law courts, schools, and newspaper offices. A banned person could not be quoted in any publication. In spite of the elaborate and powerful regime of suppression, resistance prevailed, and Black African groups, at times with the support of whites, arranged demonstrations, strikes or sabotage etc. The black African young students protest in Soweto in 1976 against the attempt to enforce Afrikaans language requirements, turned into a bloody riot by the police, became the symbol of a just struggle that shook the world into reaction against the brutal apartheid system. It even caused some white South African politicians to call for relaxed restrictions, some even called for racial equality. But the government did not give in. The ban on opposition groups and antiapartheid activists were only lifted in 1990.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Peter Bruce, Business Day Editor

    “I think Haffagee should remove the picture from the City Press web site.”

    Bruce is right. Even the mouthpiece of our monopoly capitalists understands that we must not in a spirit of liberal absolutism cling to the abstract, empty ideal of so-called freedom of expression. Ozoneblue, I see this as a victory for the UBUNTU-based spirit of sensitivity for which we all thirst. WDYS?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “It is now edited, with considerable genius, by a woman, Ferial Haffajee, who is not an African at all. With lots of support from her bosses, she has quite fearlessly rebuilt the newspaper in her own image — making it more open to debate and to non-Africans — and become probably the country’s first celebrity editor in the process.’

    huh? She certainly was born and bred and lives in Africa.

    http://www.africaninspace.com/

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 28, 2012 at 9:24 am

    Who did the evil Stalinist ANC “ban” now?

    I must have missed that one.

  • Gwebecimele

    I hope Peter Bruce will have an opportunity to expand on this statement.

    “Ferial Haffajee, who is not an African at all. “

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    May 28, 2012 at 9:32 am

    I rather see it as a victory for the art of the people. The professional artist prepares the canvass and the people improvise as the real art work unfolds. Brilliant concept.

    http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfrica/News/The-Spears-owner-wants-painting-as-is-20120526-2

    Perhaps a change to the title by the initiating artist could be a final touch.

    The Spear of Two Nations – acrylic/oil on canvas by Murray & The People.

  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Mr Ozoneblue please note I started my postings with

    “slippery slope we are now stepping onto not?:”

    Do you think the threats are not a form of banning?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OzoneBlue

    “So after 30+ posts we agree and then also agree that PdVs example of the Canadian PM is in fact a non-example and that the cultural dynamics at play are very similar there.”

    OB, I am not sure where you see agreement here. I must note that:

    1. It is the Ontario PM, not the Canadian PM, as you keep saying.

    2. To your credit, you have now admitted that you were wrong in saying that the picture had not be posted anywhere uncensored.

    3. Other leaders, Bush, for example, have also been depicted (uncensored), and nude.

    4. Lewd, humiliating, and even pornographic depictions of world leaders in public are far from uncommon.

    I believe that PdV’s motive in posting the Ontario pic was to expose the falsity of the claim that a nude depiction of political leader was not a feature of political satire around the world. That fact, of course, not dispositive. But it does undermine one of the arguments that was advanced by those who demanded censorship

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mike Ambassador

    @ Mr Ozoneblue, did the NP Government start off with banning orders ….. or did they start off with “friendly”messages to the “offending parties”and then escalate it to a state of total paranoia / brutality?

    I mean “causing harm to relations among sections of the population” could be applied applied to this case and even sound resonable – yet it is part of banning orders in the old NP?

    Thats why we need clear rules as laid out in the Bill or rights, and no ANC or anyone else should dictate / judge it.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mike Ambassador
    May 28, 2012 at 10:04 am

    I’m sure maggs will explain to you that our democracy is a robust and constitutional one that allows for artists to express themselves and ordinary people to participate in that process.

    You also have the freedom NOT to buy a specific newspaper if you don’t like their attitude. That is not a “ban”, that is the buying power of the CONSUMER.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    May 28, 2012 at 10:12 am

    Well said OB,

    “You also have the freedom NOT to buy a specific newspaper if you don’t like their attitude. That is not a “ban”, that is the buying power of the CONSUMER.”

    We advocate for consumer power all the time – just cos we don’t like what this one stands for does not equate to a ban.

    However such a call accompanied by threats of violence and murder is completely unacceptable – all of us should be voicing our concern.

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    May 28, 2012 at 10:00 am

    Yes, that rankled with me too.

    What about the rest of the article? Do we discard that?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 28, 2012 at 10:10 am

    PdV:
    “As reported rather tongue in cheek by the Canadian press, the piece appeared to draw out the art critic in many Canadians.”

    He didn’t mention though that the vast majority of Canadian press also censored the image – unlike City Press. Now did he?

    PdV:
    “I suspect that because we are a society in flux, one that is rapidly changing and irrevocably being transformed by the music and art and TV shows of popular culture (most of it Western popular culture), yet one in which many people wish to hold on to some form of tradition as a way to signal their symbolic rejection of colonialism – even if this is often little more than a symbolic holding on not reflected in how people act – anger and humiliation ensues when these two impulses collide and confront people with the fact that who they are and who they wish they were are not always the same.”

    Now forget one second the usual noble native bullshit about “conservative values” etc. being all the fault of colonialism. You have indicated earlier that you believe the Canadian middle class are also mostly politically and socially conservative – hence that is why so many news websites censored that painting.

  • Michael Osborne

    OzoneBlue/Maggs

    Of course a call for a consumer boycott is not a “ban.” That is as foolish as arguing that for the DA “censored” a Sowetan journalist by removing her from the party e-mail list. In both cases, legitimate (although perhaps politically unwise), acts of disassociation of private parties were elevated into fake constitutional issues by hyperbolic rhetoric.

    Mike A, you correctly point out that Nazi persecution of Jews began with calls upon private merchants voluntarily to boycott Jewish vendors. But I do not think you can use a slippery-slope argument to argue that it is therefore illegitimate for political agendas to be advanced by organising consumers.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 28, 2012 at 10:15 am

    Agreed. But you are going to get mad people everywhere. At least the guard who body slammed on of the co-artists at the Goodman Gallery was arrested by the police.

    We cannot ask for much more that the laws of our beautiful land are applied impartially and consistently.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/22/eugene-terreblanche-murder-farmworker-guilty

    My own conspiracy theory is that the furore around the painting was a red herring to distract the public attention.

  • Sine

    When will the NPA give us the spy tapes which were used to get Zuma off the hook? Those spy tapes do not form part of the confidential aspects of the representations which were given to the NPA. We wont forget this no matter how much noise our ANC leaders make about the painting, the publishing of which has since been apologised for by the City Press editor (to my frustration I might add).

  • Michael Osborne

    OB, you must debate with PdV whatever his commentary was on the Ontario PM picture. I did not notice him either explicitly or implicitly denying that some in the mainstream media would a very controversial such a depiction. The fact is that there is a deep well of social conservatism in both Canadian and South African society. In a capitalist system, where media is responsive to the demands of big business advertisers, who naturally do not wish to offend their target markets, one would expect such restraint. By the same token, one cannot object if “alternative” media decides to publish more controversial depictions. Also, one would expect an independently-minded editor, like Haffagee, to sometimes resist the demands of her corporate bosses. And I think the disappearance of the Spear from the CP this morning demonstrates that there are limits to such editorial independence.

  • Michael Osborne

    “would a very controversial such a depiction” = “would withhold such a controversial depiction”

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    May 28, 2012 at 10:45 am

    OB,

    “My own conspiracy theory is that the furore around the painting was a red herring to distract the public attention.”

    Hmmmm – something’s amiss.

    We’re agreeing twice in a morning let alone a day, week, month, year, lifetime!

    Of course it was.

    It’s distracting attention from all the dismal failures and embarrassing misdeeds (personal and constitutional) of Zuma.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 28, 2012 at 11:11 am

    “What about this picutre??”

    It’s ok to call Zuma dickless!

    :P

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 28, 2012 at 11:14 am

    “It’s ok to call Zuma dickless!”

    Me thinks a dicktator is more appropriate.

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    May 28, 2012 at 10:56 am

    PdV doesn’t engage in general and especially not “anonymous posters”. It would certainly help if I logged in as “Koos van der Merwe” or “Thabo Tshabalala” or “Khalid Sheikh Mohammed”

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    May 28, 2012 at 11:44 am

    LOL

    “Me thinks a dicktator is more appropriate.”

    I’m gonna borrow that one for elsewhere!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    May 28, 2012 at 11:53 am

    That’s gonna go viral for sure.

    Just remember OBS own the copyright when it does.

  • Brett Nortje

    Or wait, OBS doesn’t believe in property rights.

    Maggs, how quickly can you get the Tshirts out?

  • Brett Nortje

    How dumb is this country, when everyone has their eye wiped by a red bastard?

  • Sine
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje
    May 28, 2012 at 12:23 pm

    “Or wait, OBS doesn’t believe in property rights.”

    You are perfectly right. And I’m posting this with Ubuntu.

    https://help.ubuntu.com/8.04/installation-guide/i386/appendix-gpl.html

    “The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the gnu General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software — to make sure the software is free for all its users. This General Public License applies to most of the Free Software Foundation’s software and to any other program whose authors commit to using it. (Some other Free Software Foundation software is covered by the gnu Library General Public License instead.) You can apply it to your programs, too.

    When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things.

    To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights. These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it.

    For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. ”

    Just as this blog that you and PdV use (for gratis) every day is running on WordPress.

    http://wordpress.org/about/gpl/

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 28, 2012 at 11:53 am

    I would love to claim it but it belongs to the collective. See definition 6 in the Urban Dictionary:

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dicktator

  • Brett Nortje
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    “They read all manner of encoded racism into the artwork, right down to the red and black colours as conjuring up “rooi” and “swart gevaar”. It is true the portrait is a spoof on a famous Communist Party 1917 poster of Lenin, Peace Land Bread, but such costive interpretations of the work were certainly lost on everyone else, including the outraged.”

    Brent Meersman

    So the assumption must be that South Africans are generally pretty fucking stupid, they had by know all forgotten about the Struggle in the context of the Cold War. Such bizarre selective amnesia is obviously a precondition for the both a necessary denialism of the history/nature of the struggle against Apartheid and the capitalist forces that now conspire to discredit the “left-leaning” Zuma and his allies in the SACP/COSATU alliance.

    “This struggle for control over the direction of the alliance now underpins all political developments in South Africa, as was apparent in the protest march led by COSATU on 7 March, that saw many thousands of protesters take to the streets nationwide in what is thought to have been the largest mass protest since South Africa’s anti-apartheid protests of the 1980s.”

    http://www.heptagonpost.com/node/177

  • Dirk de Vos

    Getting back to unpacking the legal arguments against the spear, it appears that the applicants had great difficulty in formulating their argument. It was always going to end in tears. If I were the applicants (which, happily, I am not), I would have avoided the quagmire in which they now find themselves by pleading right upfront that the “Spear” amounts to hate speech and then take your chances on that, via, in necessary, various appeals. Jeremy Waldron’s recent book (widely criticised), “The Harm in Hate Speech” a good review here: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/jun/07/should-hate-speech-be-outlawed/?pagination=false provides some sort of comparative anlaysis of how hate speech is interpreted.

    For the record, I don’t think the Spear is racist or constitutes hate speech but it would have served our jurisprudence to have pleaded it none the less instead of introducing this sort of argument via the backdoor on the hoof and then breaking down in response to a question by the presiding judge. If you lose the argument, you can still go back and say that you disagree. Pleaded as reported, the case goes nowhere and provides no guidence for future events.

    To diverge from the topic a little, the point made by @OB (May 28, 2012 at 10:03 am) “The professional artist prepares the canvass and the people improvise as the real art work unfolds. Brilliant concept” hits the nail on the head. It is not surprising that the German collector is planning to conclude the transaction for the R136k odd – it will turn out to be the art deal of the century. I think that this now deserves the attention of the South African Heritage Resources Agency, the agency that regulates the export of important art, cultural and heritage pieces. The artwork by Brett Murray entitled “Spear of the Nation” is destroyed – no longer exists and cannot be delivered. The new and completely different piece (together with associated video and online content, yet unnamed, by Brett Murray AND the People must now have enormous heritage value?

  • Gwebecimele

    What about this erection?? SPOT THE DIFFERENCE

    http://www.southafrica.info/business/investing/ruwaad-060608.htm

    Dubai-based Ruwaad Holdings is conducting a viability study into building an internationally branded entertainment theme park and residential complex in the Macambini area on the KwaZulu-Natal north coast, at a cost of US$2.5-billion (about R19.6-billion).

    vs

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page292525?oid=570963&sn=2009+Detail&pid=287226

  • Gwebecimele

    Future of is Springboks is bright ……………………….errrrrrrrr black.

    Well done Boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/sport/2012/05/28/all-black-rugby-team-is-a-winning-school

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    LOL!

    President Jacob Zuma scored 15.3 percent and was the least popular choice.

    Second choice for president was former ANC Youth League president Julius Malema (19.8 percent) followed by Democratic Alliance leader Helen Zille (18.7 percent).

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/28/motlanthe-twice-as-popular-as-zuma-amongst-youth

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    One high-profile attorney who claimed to be at the receiving end of the “culture of nonpayment” is attorney Barnabas Xulu.

    Xulu is a well-known figure in political circles. He devoted himself to administering the trust of the Friends of Jacob Zuma, which was set up to assist and raise funds for Zuma’s long-running legal battles against corruption and rape charges.

    However, the established law firm he co-owns, Xulu Liversage Inc, has been blacklisted by the Bar Council after he was unable to pay in full senior legal counsel he had hired.

    Xulu’s Cape Town-based law firm has some prominent clients and is currently representing the department of defence in its legal battle over a R826-million VIP jet contract. Thankfully, the defence department paid its legal bills “timeously and in full”, which helped to keep the firm afloat, he said.

    But his concerns over other unpaid bills have given him headaches and he is currently being sued by a Johannesburg legal firm for work it did for his firm in the marathon legal battles affecting Western Cape Judge President John Hlophe.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-05-24-debt-could-cripple-black-legal-firms

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    These respondents are not voting delegates. JZ’s tsunami will swallow everything on its way to Mangaung.

    Someone must tell these younsters that Ex Prez Mothlante is on life pension just like Madam Ngcuka. May be they were not given enough choices.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 28, 2012 at 14:48 pm

    LOL Gwebs,

    “JZ’s tsunami will swallow everything on its way to Mangaung.”

    Mbeki’s supporters said the same thing in the lead up to Polokwane.

    Anyway – if Juju is as popular as suggested, maybe we’re gonna be in for some interesting times.

    As Dworky always says – I may support the JUJU Party in similar circumstances!!!!!!

    I definitely won’t support the ANC at the next election if Zuma is elected again!

  • Gwebecimele

    GOD MIGHT BE A DELEGATE IN MANGAUNG

    “Caeser Nongqunga, chief apostle of the Twelve Apostles Church, appeared to promise Zuma support when he said it would be wrong to replace a leader after only five years in power.
    “The only thing we can say to the ANC is when you go to Mangaung, be careful,” he told the president .
    “We have said we’d rather support a united party, not a divided party. God doesn’t work with a divided body, he works with a united body.
    “We support continuity, we don’t support change. We support change when change comes at the right time. The right time for us is not when a person is starting to learn,” Nongqunga said.
    Addressing the crowd before Zuma arrived, he said God spoke directly to him and they should obey His instructions.
    The Twelve Apostles Church is one of the biggest in South Africa, with millions of followers around the country who revere Nongqunga as their guide. The church claims on its website it has between four and six million members.”

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    Precisely, Mbeki had a real opponent. Remember that others appear on both tickets and are waiting for the foot soldiers to deliver a winning ticket. What were JZ’ choices just before Polokwane???????????????

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 28, 2012 at 14:52 pm

    “I definitely won’t support the ANC at the next election if Zuma is elected again!”

    You should consider starting your very own Bunny Chow Party then. Even I may vote for it if you would offer two for the price of one.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    May 28, 2012 at 14:52 pm

    “Anyway – if Juju is as popular as suggested,”

    I would say amongst Afrikaners he is about as popular as genital warts. So don’t count on my vote.

  • Mike Ambassador

    Gwebecimele says:
    May 28, 2012 at 14:29 pm

    Well done to the boys for being the BEST,

    If this was a all white team would there be screaming for quota or racism?

    Future of is Springboks is bright ……………………….errrrrrrrr black.

    Well done Boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/sport/2012/05/28/all-black-rugby-team-is-a-winning-school

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    ozoneblue
    May 28, 2012 at 15:07 pm

    LOL OB,

    “You should consider starting your very own Bunny Chow Party then. Even I may vote for it if you would offer two for the price of one.”

    Unfortunately for you times have changed.

    In the apartheid days, those who brought curry for their bosses got promoted, overtime and other menial perks.

    So for you wankers it’s time to realise that curry is not free!

    It’s an extravagant, expensive, delectable food for the refined palates only.

    If you want cheap food, try boiled meat and boiled vegetables (just add water) – for special occasions bake it in a pie.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Maggs

    1. Mr Malema is a spent force.

    2. I would support Mr Zuma again, in the same circumstances. And by “the same circumstances,” I mean circumstances wherein his traditional male organ had not been nakedly exploited by insensitive, ahistoric whitists.

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 28, 2012 at 15:42 pm

    LOL. Must be the first post of mfd I have ever agreed with.

    There is nothing to unite a PROUD YOUNG NATION than xenophobic, unpatriotic attacks on its most prominent member.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 28, 2012 at 15:42 pm

    LOL Dworky,

    I guess god was right after all.

    Imagine having a CJ with a name like Dickgang while all this is going on!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    The ANC, on the other hand, should learn to be sophisticated enough to fight battles that are worth fighting.

    If they had just ignored that painting, even I would not have known about it.

    It was brought to my attention, and to the attention of the world, by Jackson Mthembu.

    Now the president is even more of a laughing stock of the world.

    Radio and television stations were for the whole of this week talking about his lifestyle, his penis and the women he has impregnated.

    http://www.citypress.co.za/Columnists/A-test-of-the-limits-a-test-of-democracy-20120526

  • Gwebecimele

    Recession is blowing along the coastal golf estates of the Cape. Moneys moved to Spain, Greece, and Italy before the new SA is also evaporating.

    European middle class are unable to come and retire here anymore.

    MORE WATER FOR THE MASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Property/Another-golf-estate-victim-20120527

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Gwebe

    “European middle class are unable to come and retire here anymore. …MORE WATER FOR THE MASSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Gwebe is right. Not only will there be more water, but the masses will have more time to enjoy the abundant liquids during the day — because they will not have jobs, like watering and cutting the golf greens, and cleaning the luxurious homes of the rich German retirees. Instead of being forced to accept such demeaning work, the masses will be able take up the DECENT JOBS FOR DECENT WAGES that, one day, will surely turn up in other sectors of the economy!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    These peasants are revolting

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=172826

    EDITORIAL: The end of the affair?

    Published: 2012/05/29 07:34:45 AM

    AS HARD as it must have been, City Press editor Ferial Haffajee did the right thing yesterday by removing a photograph of the controversial original portrait of President Jacob Zuma with his genitalia hanging out of his trousers.

    The announcement of its withdrawal caused a brief spike in outrage from absolutists and moralisers, who believe she betrayed some kind of crusade, but that will soon die down.

    Editors don’t own newspapers. They are mere caretakers, and appointment to the job does not confer the right to take the ship down on a whim. Should a proprietor stand by an editor in the pursuit of the powerful (as Washington Post owner Katherine Graham did for Ben Bradlee in exposing the Watergate scandal) that is one thing. But the president’s penis was always the wrong battle on which to pin the future of an important Sunday newspaper, and its staff and distributors. Ms Haffajee made her point bravely and well and exposed, if anyone ever doubted it, the intolerance inherent in the Zuma clique in the African National Congress (ANC).

    Had she persisted, and had the ANC continued to use the streets, the courts and its own state power against her, her bosses would, sooner or later, have cracked under the inevitable commercial pressure and required her to desist.

    That would have left her and her newspaper in a much deeper hole than they find themselves now.

    Ms Haffajee is arguably the best thing that has ever happened to City Press. From a narrow, ethnically targeted, third-rate newspaper, she has contrived a bright, energetic and involved read for all South Africans. It has been excellent in pursuit of the corruption that attaches itself to powerful politicians and, more recently, senior policemen.

    It takes courage to do that and to withstand the abuse that comes with all change.

    Obviously, the issue is rich in lessons for SA. For example, it can no longer be claimed that artistic freedom exists here and the very notion of freedom of expression has been horribly damaged by the ANC reaction, whatever it may claim to the contrary.

    Another lesson is how woefully inadequate our law is in the face of the flood of hate speech on social media, particularly Twitter, that Ms Haffajee has had to endure.

    Today, the freedom-loving ANC plans to take a march of 50000 people to the Johannesburg gallery that first displayed the painting.

    An art gallery!

    It is a measure of the almost medieval depths to which Jacob Zuma’s strange republic has fallen. Beware the pitchforks and torches.

  • Mike Ambassador

    Let the censorship begin:

    Culture Minister Paul Mashatile said on Monday “I will be meeting with the arts fraternity of the country to discuss freedom of expression and how far we can go.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Goodman-Gallery-sorry-Mashatile-20120528

  • Mike Ambassador

    Funny how during the fight against apartheid anything goes was applied, now because the liberators are in charge we must “see how far we can go”.

    The Minister of Arts and Culture speaking against art!!!!!

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Prof and others

    This morning in a debate on radio SAFM with Seth Cooper, Aubrey Matshiqi suggested that the judge’s comments/questions and behaviour brought flashes of the past to Malindi who went through a trial during apartheid.

    Many have been disappointed by the comments of the judge and I suspect this may even create unnecessary perceptions about the ruling especially if it is against the ANC.

    Will it not be wise for the judge to recuse himself???

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 29, 2012 at 10:01 am

    Gwebs,

    Malindi should rather recuse himself if he is not up to the task given his life’s experiences.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Gwebs

    “Many have been disappointed by the comments of the judge”

    I agree with you. But, just for the record, please specify precisely what “comments of the judge” caused disappointment.

    Thanks.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ MDF

    Check this post.

    Thomas says:
    May 24, 2012 at 19:59 pm

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    Malindi’s experience vs. Judges views.

    In the fairness of justice which one should we worry about? Remember Malindi might not be the last to appear before that panel and others might be strong enough not to cry.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 29, 2012 at 10:51 am

    Gwebs,

    “Malindi’s experience vs. Judges views.”

    As I saw it the judge was asking questions to clarify what Malindi submitted.

    The outcome of this case whichever way it goes is likely to impact on the shape and character of our entire country. And it will possibly have broader implications across the entire continent at the very least.

    It’s nonsense to throw words like “racism” and “culture” into the mix without being able to support those meaningfully.

    I reckon that the ANC ought to have chosen counsel who is able to unpack its viewpoints and withstand the fiercest of interrogation.

    This cry-baby-bunting approach is weak (not much different from Cameron when he “cried” over the jokes in Spud) – and, as they say in the movies, the weakest link must go!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Gwebe

    “Where is the evidence that black culture is inferior?”

    Yes, I see. What a very disappointing question for any judge to ask!

    The point is that each and every allegation of RACISM should be seen as a stepping-stone to another allegation, from the initial RACISM of the white artist, to the RACISM of the white art gallery, to the RACISM of the white media, to the RACISM of white art critics, to the RACISM of white counsel, to the RACISM of the white high court judge, to the RACISM of white appellate judges …

    Thanks.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    Please separate Malindi’s/ANC weak argument from the Judges comments.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 29, 2012 at 11:27 am

    Gwebs – the judge made a lot of comments.

    Which ones in particular made Malandi cry????

  • Sine

    @Maggs and Gwebs

    My recollection of the questions as quoted by Thomas is to the effect that the judge was more interested in showing how ridiculous Adv Malindi was sounding instead of finding out his views or argument on the matter at hand. Judge Classen did not need to do that because it gave the impression that he was partial or at least that he made his decision on the matter soon after reading the Application instituting the proceedings and Responding papers. Instead, he should have focused on grasping the gist of Adv Malindi’s argument/s and then to lambast him or his argument when penning down the judgment. As things stand, his line of questioning has caused doubts over his partiality to linger about over his head and unfortunately also over the judiciary. Sadly, we are now left with the situation where he must now choose between the devil himself and the deep blue see in that:

    1. If the ANC loses this case then it would just be a confirmation of the partiality he exhibited throughout the case when questioning Adv Malindi; and
    2. If the ANC wins then it would be seen as him trying to show the public that he meant nothing sinister by adopting his controversial line of question which caused the Adv to cry in court, whether or not the Adv was justified in crying.

    As you may have noticed in those two instances above, the judiciary will be the ultimate loser regardless of the outcome of this case. That is indeed unfortunate because this case would have proved for all that this country’s Constitution does not leave a gap for an uncalled for censorship of any kind, especially of artistic freedom. Judge Classen’s behaviour reminds me of Judge Nicholson whose judgment was lambasted by the SCA in the Zuma case against NPA. The difference is that he could now be seen to be indicating, through his line of questioning, bias against Zuma.

  • Brett Nortje

    Another ‘Black like me’ argument….

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    @ Sine

    “the judge was more interested in showing how ridiculous Adv Malindi was sounding instead of finding out his views or argument on the matter at hand. Judge Classen did not need to do that because it gave the impression that he was partial”

    Sine is right. I have certainly NEVER seen a judge being rude to counsel, or giving the impression in his line of questioning that he had already made up his mind on the merits. … OK, come to think of it, I can recall a few CC judges who were/are a TINY LITTLE BIT prone to humiliating counsel, whether white or black.

    Sine & Gwebe, did you ever see Judges Mohamed, Didcott, Kriegler, Moseneke, Ncgobo or Yacoob in action?

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Sine

    My impression is that these were not mere questions but statements that were intended not only to challenge Malindi but also communicate the judges views on issue of racism, equality of cultures etc.

    Now that he is between “the devil and the blue sea”, your own words.

    Should he recuse himself??

  • Gwebecimele

    @ MDF

    Maggs knows a certain Adv who is capable of telling a judge to take hike.
    What about the CJ vs DCJ at the JSC?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    Gwebe is right.

    I had no problem with Didcott J throwing his pen down and literally turning his back on counsel in the CC, when he deemed them to be avoiding his questions.
    But judges should should be much more careful when questioning black counsel, and even treat them with “kid gloves,” because black lawyers are known to be so very SENSITIVE!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    May 29, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Gwebs,

    “Maggs knows a certain Adv who is capable of telling a judge to take hike.”

    Of course I do.

    Sometimes I refer people to him – his name is Advocate Ballem!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Sine
    May 29, 2012 at 11:50 am

    Sne,

    Judges go into most cases having a view.

    It’s is most unlikely that the judges in this particular matter would not have went in with preconceived notions about the matter at hand vis-a-vis our Consitution/BoR.

  • Mike Ambassador
  • Sine

    @Gwebs

    Bra, I do not think that he should recuse himself as there is nothing which is strong enough at hand to justify recusal. However, if Adv Malindi were to ask for Classen J to recuse himself, then he would be required to seriously consider recusal, especially in view of his line of questioning.

    @Maggs & MDF

    That may be the case but the case in question is different for two reasons: It has attracted a lot of public interest and the media. Secondly, it is alleged by counsel to be dealing with something that is very serious; racism. Therefore, Classen J should have been more careful with his line of questioning. I am more concerned about the impression his line of questioning has attracted Maggs; that of him being biased or partial.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender

    Sine is right. I never saw Yacoob, Moseneke JJ, et al, or any of the others, mercilessly harassing counsel in cases that were of great “public interest,” or involved “race.”

    Never!

  • Mike Ambassador

    ………….. and in the mean time the SA Economy turns over at 2.1% in real terms (some economist say this is even over inflated) yet we require 7% to make a dent in the 25% unemployment

    http://www.fin24.com/Economy/SA-economic-growth-slows-20120529

  • Mike Ambassador

    …….. and all is forgiven

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/City-Press-boycott-called-off-20120529

    …… but beware everyone don’t do or say anything the ANC won’t like or you know what will happen to you ……. the example has been set!!!

  • Gwebecimele

    Is this not a legitimate request by the taxis in KZN that can be supported by the constitution especially that isiZulu is the most SPOKEN language in KZN.

    “The taxi drivers want traffic tickets to be issued in isiZulu”

  • Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbender
    May 29, 2012 at 14:12 pm

    Dworky

    “I never saw Yacoob”

    Maybe so.

    But did Yacoob see you???

  • Gwebecimele

    At least they can leave their fingers for voting purposes.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/05/29/max-sisulu-slams-poor-quality-legislation

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – Zuma must go! says:
    May 29, 2012 at 16:05 pm

    I would precribe bells on Counsels’ dunce-caps to avoid letting them get that sinking feeling ‘He’s shaking his head at me’ when he’s just trying to pinpoint where the voice is coming from…

  • Brett Nortje

    Hands up everyone who thinks Ferial is a biiiiiiiiiiit of an attention-seeker?

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