Constitutional Hill

What shall we do about the Reverend?

Reports that a Cape Town pastor has called gays and lesbians drug addicts and child molesters and said that Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu will burn in hell for supporting the LGBT community will probably be welcomed by some of the more bigoted readers of this Blog. According to the Mamba Online website the Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt, a Christian Minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and senior pastor at Calvary H.O.P.E Ministries in Mitchells Plain (what a wonderfully Orwelian name!), launched this attack against gay and lesbian people in unsolicited e-mails to local websites catering to the gay and lesbian community.

Bougardt said that his “mission is to take out all lesbians and gays because they are a bunch of idiots who confuse our children”. The pastor also said that “their lifestyle is an abomination to God and that gays and lesbians should know that they are going to burn in hell”. Apparently the majority of us are also drug addicts and:

offer our teenagers and children drugs and alcohol and once they are drugged and drunk they are seduced and end up having sexual relation with them…. Lesbians and gays are a curse on any community. I believe that a man that sleeps with another man doesn’t deserve to be part of a healthy community and I will mobilise the masses to stop them.

Asked about his comments he said:

If I say take out homosexuals, I mean they must be removed from our communities…You interpret that I am inciting violence against homosexuals, I see it is making our people aware that their lifestyles should not be approved by any healthy community. Just as homosexuals have the right to express their views, I have the right to express mine.

When I read these statements I could not help but laugh and, I have to confess, for a moment it did cross my mind that the pastor might have been smoking or drinking the strong stuff before he made these utterances. Then I felt sad and a bit sorry for the gentleman who styles himself as a man of the cloth.

Why would he have constructed for himself such a warped, perverted and hating religion? Why the obsession with sex and drugs and child molestation? Does he himself perhaps have an issue with his sexuality or with other urges that remain unspeakable to him? After all, the biggest homophobes are often repressed homosexuals. Or is he targeting the gay and lesbian community because he wishes to exploit the prejudices of other members in the community in the hope that the donations would start flowing into his ministry?

I have no way of knowing what his motivations might be for writing to these websites. Maybe he is a sincere person with strong if somewhat bizare views. Or maybe he has been watching too many YouTube videos of Ugandan pastors and feels jealous of them for having cornered the market on hate.

Of course, it would be easy to shut up the pastor and make a few hundred thousand Rand for a gay cause or organisation. After all, the words would almost certainly constitute hate speech in terms of section 10 of the Equality Act. As those who read this Blog know, that provision states that words that could reasonably be construed as having had the intention to be hurtful towards gays and lesbians would constitute hate speech. Advocating the “taking out” of homosexuals from society, sounds like the talk of an apartheid-era hit-squad member.

If Afriforum wanted to demonstrate that it did not only have an obsession with the ANC but was really concerned about hateful rhetoric in our society, it would take the pastor to the Equality Court and get that court to order him to stop making such statements (and to stop making an utter fool of himself too, one must add). His words sound not too different from the singing of the “Kill the Boer” song by Julius Malema. But while Malema invoked the struggle tradition, the pastor will obviously invoke his right to religious freedom (and the religious tradition centred around hate and homophobia) as well as his right to make a fool of himself. (Although, I am not sure the latter right is explicitly written into the Constitution.)

Yet, I for one would not be running off to the Equality Court. While I find his words hateful and deeply obnoxious, I do not think the best way to deal with the “pastor” is to ban him from writing these letters. Far better to mock the poor man or, alternatively (if that is your kind of thing) to show Christian compassion towards this seemingly deeply damaged soul by praying for him in the hope that he will eventually manage to deal with his suspiciously obsessive attitudes towards gay men and lesbians.

Besides, as I have written before, I am almost certain that section 10 of the Equality Act is overbroad (as it includes a far broader definition of hate speech than the definition contained in section 16 of the Constitution) and is hence unconstitutional. I would therefore not want to invoke a section of the law that I believe is unconstitutional. As I criticised President Jacob Zuma for invoking an unconstitutional provision of the Judges’ Remuneration Act to try and extend the term of office of the Chief Justice, it would be rather hypocritical of me now to invoke this provision which I believe is similarly unconstitutional.

But how should relatively reasonable, logical and respectful people deal with this kind of utterance? Am I not being a bit precious by arguing against the hate speech route? I happen to be an upper middle class white man living in the suburbs and I am usually able to avoid weirdo’s who make statements like those uttered by the pastor or who would want to do physical harm to me – unlike some other gay men and lesbians who face the most vile and sometimes lethal homophobia of members of their own communities and do not have the luxury of avoiding the homophobes.

Well, my belief is that banning these kinds of words will not stop homophobia. Neither will it stop homophobic attacks on gay men and lesbians. People will still think these things and they will still say these things – just not on public platforms. Some people will also act on their fears and hatred by attacking gay men and lesbians to make themlseves feel better about their internalised self-hatred.

The only thing that will stop this kind of exploitative hatred is a change of heart on the part of those people brainwashed by religious groups to believe that other human beings supposedly created in the image of God are inherently bad or even evil. In other words, we need to demonstrate how absurdly contradictory the teachings of the more extreme religious groups are and we need to change the way people think.

The only way people will change is if those of us who are more reasonable, more compassionate, more respectful of human difference, convince enough people that these hateful views are illogical, irrational  and immoral. We will only do so by using rational arguments (and the odd bit of ridicule and mockery). When those of us who are empowered to do so stand up for ourselves and for members of our community and if we demonstrate through our words and our deeds that people like Mr Bougardt is at best a deeply damaged souls and at worst, just a populist charlatan, we will begin to win this fight.

Personally, I am going to write to Rev Bougardt (pastor.bougardt@gmail.com) and tell him the good news that it is ok to be gay and that if he has any problems with his sexuality I will be very happy to talk to him about this. After all, it is only the Christian thing to do to help another person to overcome his or her self-hatred.

  • Cobus Bester

    Eina. If I were the Reverend, I would start heading for the hills.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Hey PdV,

    “Then I felt sad and a bit sorry for the gentleman who styles himself as a man of the cloth“.

    There’s unusual silliness in that.

    Perpetuating the myth that donning ‘the cloth’ is somehow an indicator of any greater degree of respect, morality, ethics, dignity is most unfortunate.

  • Pierre De Vos

    New law violates Nigerian constitution and international human rights law

    Sign the petition against the ban on same-sex marriage

    Friday October 21st, 2011

    Following failed attempts in 2006 and 2008, Nigerian lawmakers are resurrecting a version of a widely condemned anti-homosexuality bill, now entitled: “An Act to Prohibit Marriage between Persons of Same Gender, Solemnization Of Same And For Other Matters Related Therewith”.

    Read the bill here:
    http://www.nass.gov.ng/nass/legislation2.php?search=marriage+&Submit=Search

    Sign the petition against the ban on same-sex marriage
    http://www.change.org/petitions/nigeria-stop-the-anti-same-sex-marriage-bill-decriminalize-same-sex-love

    “The new Nigerian bill aims to further criminalise same sex relationships and marriage,” said Nigerian Yemisi Ilesanmi, coordinator of the campaign: Nigerian LGBT in the Diaspora Against Anti Same Sex Laws.

    “Lawmakers are fast tracking the bill. The bill has already passed its second reading. A public hearing is scheduled for Monday 31st October, 2011. However, there are concerns within the Nigerian LGBT community that the recent bomb blasts in the country could be used as a pretext to deny public access to the hearing.

    “Under Nigeria’s criminal code and penal code, consensual same sex conduct between adults is already a criminal offence carrying up to 14 years imprisonment and in some parts of the country, the death penalty under Sharia law.

    “The proposed bill violates fundamental human rights that are guaranteed under the Nigerian constitution and various human rights international agreements that Nigeria is a signatory to.

    “This bill would lead to harassment of people for their actual or imputed sexual orientation. It would also stifle freedom of expression and association through the proposed ban on organizations that support lesbian and gay rights.

    “The passing of the bill would give official validation to the harassment of sexual minorities and many homophobic persons would use it as a license to discriminate against lesbians and gays,” said Ms Ilesanmi.

    The bill states –

    1.-(1) Marriage Contract entered between persons of same Gender is hereby prohibited in Nigeria.

    (3) Marriage Contract entered between persons of same gender by virtue a certificate issued by a foreign country shall be void in Nigeria, and any benefits accruing there from by virtue of the certificate shall not be enforced by any court of law in Nigeria.”

    It further states: “Same Gender Marriage” means the coming together of persons of the same sex with the purpose of leaving together as husband and wife or for other purposes of same sexual relationship.”

    Read the Bill in full here:
    http://www.nass.gov.ng/nass/legislation2.php?search=marriage+&Submit=Search

    More information:

    YEMISI ILESANMI
    Coordinator – Nigerian LGBT in the Diaspora Against Anti Same Sex Laws
    Tel- +44 (0) 7577749875
    Email- nanfs2001@yahoo.com

  • spoiler

    Give the pastor enough rope and he’ll hang himself. What a tjop.

  • Ntyatyi

    You’re right, he is probably gay but in denial about it-or maybe having secret relations (otherwise, how did he get all the inside info about how to ‘seduce’ a teenager of the same sex? He seems to know quite a lot about how gay men seduce other men). His language is discturbing because it promotes violence. Why did he only “clarify” his statement after he was called to answear for it? At least Tutu is used to being called names for supporting LGBT and has far more clout and influence than this “religious” man.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Izeze – the pastor needs help!

    My name is Mr. Bougardt of Cape Town. yesterday my family and I decided to have KFC for lunch and to be honest with you the foos was awefull, the chicken was baked in old oil, and my daughter got sick after eating the food. We bought ot at Westridge KFC Mitchells Plain

    http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/family-match-feast-c441536.html
    ———————————————————————————————————
    “I’ve come across many cases where women use the law as a tool to abuse men. When they have a fight, the women run to court to get an interdict. Men are shy and afraid to come and speak out about it

    http://152.111.1.87/argief/berigte/dieburger/2011/02/08/PQ/8/mlpastor.html
    ———————————————————————————————————
    And the classic is :

    “Where I stay you don’t need academic, government or scientific statistics,” he said, adding that “homosexuality is spreading faster than HIV and AIDS”.

  • Mathew Gills

    I would like to find out if the Prof himself has come out of the closet?

  • izeze

    Maggs – “Izeze – the pastor needs help!”

    Let me just say this pastor is a lost cause.

    BTW, there are some interesting definitions on Urban Dictionary of the word “foos”.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    izeze
    October 21, 2011 at 15:35 pm

    Hey Izeze,

    “Let me just say this pastor is a lost cause.”

    Do you think it was because of the “awefull chicken was baked in old oil”?

  • izeze

    Maggs –

    “Do you think it was because of the awefull chicken was baked in old oil”?”

    Oh, abso-flippen-lutely. In fact, unlike Pierre’s theory (smoking and drinking the strong stuff), it is more than likely that the pastor’s strange musings are the result of marinating his insides with trans fatty acids, a toxic substance which makes KFC taste so irresistible.

  • sirjay jonson

    Well actually Prof, the story today, apart from confused renovations for our prez, is that the ANC like the cry-baby child they are, has stated, ‘if the world had only listened to us, the Gadfly wouldn’t have come to such a terrible end’. Please, give we the public a break. Ad to this all those who don’t think the miserable despot’s final moments shouldn’t be viewed around the world.

    Today, SAPS graciously approved of my nephew’s visit to a local police cell, for his not so innocent thieving, in an attempt on family’s part to teach him a lesson.

    And, what a wonderful lesson to all our dictatorial ars*oles, thanks to Libya. Karma ‘s a bitch, right. Just results for a despicable ultra cruel animal. Gee, if only they the ANC were educated, they would know how Mussolini and others of his ilk ended their pitiful lives. Its a lost hope, I know, that they the ANC will evolve and see that birds of a feather in flocking together, determine their own inglorious end.

  • terence

    Well, I just wrote to our dearly beloved in Christ. He clearly reads faster than he thinks, judging by the speed of his reply. I see it comes from a Blackberry, which perhaps explains his lashing out at homosexuals: he’s mega-pissed off at the Blackberry outages and had to find some outlet for his rage. Gays are always an easy target.

    “Thank you for youe emails contents noted

    Regards

    Rev OPB
    Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device”

    ps. Sirjay, I don’t understand what you are gaaning on about today. All very confusing and off-topic. Did you start on the Friday afternoon sundowners early today?

  • sirjay jonson

    Terence: thanks for your comment, appreciated. Important to stay in touch with daily shifts and changes, don’t you think, thus my previous post.

    My life partner is adamant, the violent phone clips and pics being broadcast around the world of gadfly’s last moments disturb her. She’s a librarian, a chair of Abused Women and Children, and was concerned about the vivid pics in the Cape Times today. She mentioned in Afrikaans that Die Burger didn’t commit the same damaging nonsense for profit.

    Well, bro, this is now a major concern in our normally cheerful family, I mean she’s decided to sleep with her daughter tonight, she’s so angry. Her view, the violent display of Gadfly’s demise promotes further violence.

    My belief; such violence viewed depicts karma, that so important lesson, what we experience as the eventual result of action producing reaction. I believe that the public needs to see this, juju and our prez need to see this. Would you disagree?

    We the public, eventually say enough is enough.

    It’s human nature, although not democratic, to tear apart those who have murdered so many.

  • izeze

    Sirjay –

    Ah, I geddit – Gadfly = Gaddafi. Why didn’t you just say so, instead of rambling on in your usual poetic fashion.

    Incidentally, I agree with your life partner.

  • sirjay jonson

    Correction: ‘murdered’… or rather, ‘exploited so many for personal greed.’

    Lekker Naweek

  • sirjay jonson

    Izeze: I have a spelling problem, apologies.

  • sirjay jonson

    Agreed Izeze: she has a valid point. However, I also feel I have a valid point.
    Any suggestions?

  • Brett Nortje

    Sirjay I think the mob’s passions sent shivers down JZs spine judging from his performance on TV. Yet, he cannot bring himself to condemn it in those terms because he is so much the creature of the mob.

    Like Bougie.

    Remember when the Arch saved impimpis from the mob?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    I demand that the TLC enter into negotiations, pursuant to the AU roadmap, to form a government representing all of the Libyan people!

  • Brett Nortje

    Is this mob so different from the mob that killed and ate Sister Mary Quinlan, Sirjay?

  • Snowman

    I think that you, Pierre, should turn the other cheek.

  • ewald

    @ Maggs..The reason why Oscar Penis Bender’s daughter got sick at KFC is because she couldn’t escape her father’s nauseating presence and go throw up in the toilet. Poor little girl, she’ll turn out bulimic and our Ossie will blame it all on homosexuals.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    I hate to see churches popping up everywhere in Cape Town … The normal NG Kerks et al don’t really bother me- they’re the usual evil, methuselahs whose days are almost done- but ones with ‘Ministry’ in the name always have such sinister overtones. Then there are the Urban Edges of the world.

    When I was still in high school, a closeted friend of an ex- decided to attend Urban Edge. They convinced him he wasn’t gay, just confused. He spent the next five years single and alone because he wanted to believe he was just a little turned around. They even convinced him that my ex- and her friends were sinners (granted, they were, but that’s beside the point) and that he’d best disassociate from everyone that accepted him for who he was. Last I heard, he’d killed himself.

    Urban Edge and the ‘Ministries’ of this world … these fuckers can all fuck off to hell. That includes Reverend Bougardt.

  • Pingback: Truth Wins Out - South African Pastor Joins Continent’s Violent Antigay Chain Gang()

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mathew Gills
    October 21, 2011 at 15:13 pm

    Hey Matthew,

    “I would like to find out if the Prof himself has come out of the closet?”

    Please go into the closet and have a look see.

    If he’s still in the closet, then he hasn’t come out.

    If he’s not in the closet, then he’s out.

    Afterwards you can also come out of the closet!

    p.s. Let us know what you discover.

  • Nationalise the Minds

    I think that both camps need to chill.

    Ask yourself how Nelson Mandela would have handled such a situation. I would suggest that he would be firm yet graceful.

    It appears to me that MM’s church, the Winner’s Chapel, didn’t make a scene when Pierre made the most outrageous comments about how he interpreted their beliefs. (It was an interpretation as there is nothing on the Internet to support zpuerre’s suppositions.). The point being that it isn’t helpful to have a retaliatory rant. It never works.

    I have always admired Herman Lategan’s take on these issues and would love to know his views on this Pastor Bougaard.

  • anton kleinschmidt

    Why do you raise the profile of people like Bougardt. The world is full of people whose views are profoundly irrelevant in the real world. This preacher is one of them

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Nationalise the Minds
    October 22, 2011 at 9:00 am

    Hey NTM,

    “Ask yourself how Nelson Mandela would have handled such a situation. I would suggest that he would be firm yet graceful.”

    Yeah, Mandela was very graceful in similar situations.

    I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

    And

    Never, never and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another.

  • Nationalise the Minds

    Exactly, Maggs.

    The point is that Pierre goes on oppressing the likes of this pastor. Why? The pastor is making an arse of himself without anyone needing to guild the Lilly.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Nationalise the Minds
    October 22, 2011 at 9:31 am

    Hey NTM,

    “… Pierre goes on oppressing the likes of this pastor.”

    Huh?

    The pastor maybe a nitwit but the message which he sends out adds to the prejudice which is out there – expressing an opinion on a retarded/regressive view is anything but oppression.

    In addition this message improperly deals with the awfulness of the scourge of drugs, crime and the spread of HIV.

    Where I think Pierre is profoundly wrong is by him suggesting, albeit by stealth, that the manifestation of religious affiliation is an indicator of ‘righteousness’ – that is seriously flawed.

    The worst kinds of crimes against people and indeed humanity has been and still is perpetuated under the guise of religion.

    In addition to all its other ills, religion provides the basis for people to do awful things and absolve themselves by saying or implying “god/my religion told me so”.

  • Brett Nortje

    anton kleinschmidt says:
    October 22, 2011 at 9:19 am

    Yet, Maggs is still here!

    “The world is full of people whose views are profoundly irrelevant in the real world.”

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    The good Reverend might as well be a peddler of snake oils … No better than Aconite Medical Suppliers …

    http://www.camcheck.co.za/asa-ruling-revivo-tea/

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, while we are all worrying about this so-called KFC “Reverend,” the forces of IMPERIALISM are re-colonising Africa.

    Just a day before Washington’s lackeys murdered Colonel Gadafi, Obama announced he is deploying troops to Uganda to resist the Lord’s Resistance Army. And, it turns out, Mr Malema was right about negotiations to place US troops in Botswana!

    What are we to do, Maggs?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    October 22, 2011 at 18:41 pm

    Hey Dworky,

    “this so-called KFC ‘Reverend’” – Serves him right for getting chicken baked in old oil – everybody knows that Chicken Licken is SOUL FOOD!

  • izeze

    @ sirjay:

    “”However, I also feel I have a valid point”

    Which valid point are you referring to? Was it “I believe that the public needs to see this, juju and our prez need to see this”, or “It’s human nature, although not democratic, to tear apart those who have murdered so many”?

    As to your first point, I’d say that the public (of which I am a signed-up member) doesn’t want to see this, nor, I suspect, do Jelly and the President. I’m not clear why they “need” to see this; maybe you can help me out here?

    Your second point betrays an eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-a-tooth mentality. Even the biggest scoundrel has rights. If that was “human nature”, then I don’t hold out much hope for Libya’s future. Those “rebels” are clearly barbarians, mowing down innocent civilians in their quest to get Gaddafi.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Sirjay, just a thought

    Imagine South Africa had a dictator such as Qadaffi. Imagine we deposed him. Would you want him to be summarily executed as Qadaffi has been? What of his constitutional (and international) rights?
    Where would you draw the line for summary executions? At criminals? At suspected criminals?
    What about the foreigners in Alexandra?

    A trial, in Libya or abroad, would have allowed Libyans to close this dictatorial chapter in their lives resoundingly. His 4-decade rein would have been catalogued, his justifications would have been catalogued, Libya’s people could have all participated in the conversation surrounding this man and his deeds. It would have been a perfect way in which to reify exactly what their country should become in the wake of the man’s death, how it would contrast with his rule.

    This opportunity has been lost to the Libyan people. Stolen, actually.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Is any Afrikaner willing to read through this document

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0BxC7uPKt1VrDMmRiZmJmODItNDg4OC00ZGRkLWJlMDgtNmIxNWY4ZjU0ZWMz&hl=en_GB

    which forms part of this article

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=258850&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    and inform us all what’s going on in the DA’s Swellendam?

    Thanks.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Nicholas Myburgh says about Swellendam

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=258047&sn=Detail&pid=71654

    ‘Max is twisting facts to suit his own political agenda and in order to hide his party’s role in trying to suppress an independent investigation. In Jan 2011 Bredell’s department of local govt brought out a report after investigating allegations of corruption and maladministration in Swellendam Municipality. Bredell wrote to the Council and suggested that certain matters in the report warranted a SIU investigation, but that he required Council to formally request such an investigation. ANC and ID councillors rejected his request and instead suggested that council launch its own investigation! How’s that for a cover-up, Max! The DA councillors have throughout supported a SIU investigation. Needless to say the old council never did anything to investigate themselves, and the new Council (DA-led) again took the matter up and adopted a motion which formally requests Bredell to launch a SIU probe. This time round the (new) ANC councillors supported our motion. Fact is had the ANC in the previous council not blocked a SIU probe the investigation could have commenced by now! Max should get his facts right and not blame the DA who have all along wanted this probe. Bring it on!!’

    and Helen Zille says

    ‘We have asked the SIU to investigate. Waiting for President Zuma to issue proclamation. We did not ignore the corruption charges in Swellendam. We are following due process and referred it to the SIU.’

    Anyone? What’s going on?

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Oh, sirjay, I came across this quote while reading about Qadaffi’s death. From The Lord of the Rings:

    Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo’s hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play yet, for good or ill before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many. –LORD OF THE RINGS

  • D Mwangi

    Pdv: Are you saying it is illegitimate for a Reverend to denounce the radical sexual liberationism that so many in the LBGTQ(XYZ….???) movement promote?

    Obviously, I find much of the content and tenor of this reverend’s remarks objectionable. But what if he had simply stated that he would like to see his community free of homosexual conduct– as distinct from homosexual persons– as well as all other forms of unhealthy sexual behavior? And what if he was doing so out of genuine concern for the health and well-being of homosexuals and the moral ecology of those around them?

    Facts are stubborn things and the facts lead me to conclude homosexual behavior is not conducive to human flourishing. Not only are active homosexuals at increased risk for HIV and STI’s but their rates of suicide, depression, eating disorders, and other mood disorders are much higher than their straight counterparts. Their relationships are much less stable and they tend to have many more sexual partners than the general straight population. These statistics hold true even in countries that are very sexually permissive where there is little to no stigmatisation of homosexuality (eg. Netherlands).

    Homosexuals were on much firmer footing when they were asking others not to interfere in the privacy of their bedrooms. But telling us that children do not need a father and a mother; or that lesbian women have a right to be artificially inseminated; or that homosexuals should be free to engage in public sex acts without opprobrium; or that HIV is no big deal now that we have ARV’s; or that monogamy should not be encouraged because it is oppressive (all of these are actual arguments propounded by well-known gay rights activists and legal scholars) is where they go off the mark. I imagine the reverend’s hostility is a reaction to this kind of radicalism.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Mwangi

    ‘Not only are active homosexuals at increased risk for HIV and STI’s but their rates of suicide, depression, eating disorders, and other mood disorders are much higher than their straight counterparts. Their relationships are much less stable and they tend to have many more sexual partners than the general straight population.’

    There is an idea that these problems are the result of an unaccepting society rather than something that is innate to the homosexual life. Because homosexuals are treated so poorly, they suffer these social and mental disorders; not vice versa.

    ‘These statistics hold true even in countries that are very sexually permissive where there is little to no stigmatisation of homosexuality (eg. Netherlands).’

    You’re mistaking reality with general consensus. Homosexuals are more accepted there than they are most other places, but there is still stigma. Google ‘homophobia in netherlands’.
    There is also some exceptionalism at work, even where homosexuals are widely accepted. They are not expected to ‘act’ in the same way that heterosexuals do. This needs to be remedied.

    ‘Homosexuals were on much firmer footing when they were asking others not to interfere in the privacy of their bedrooms. But telling us that children do not need a father and a mother; or that lesbian women have a right to be artificially inseminated; or that homosexuals should be free to engage in public sex acts without opprobrium; or that HIV is no big deal now that we have ARV’s; or that monogamy should not be encouraged because it is oppressive (all of these are actual arguments propounded by well-known gay rights activists and legal scholars) is where they go off the mark.’

    Children do not need a mother and a father. Studies have been done in California that prove that children of same-sex parents fare no better or worse than children of heterosexual couples.
    Lesbian women do have a right to be inseminated, as do heterosexual women.
    Those last three arguments sound like fringe or radical elements that one can find in any movement; to define the entire LGBTQ movement by those ideas is disingenuous. Although you are black, I don’t believe you want to drive all white people into the sea … :)

    ‘I imagine the reverend’s hostility is a reaction to this kind of radicalism.’

    Yes, one radical’s reply to another. You have to realise that where people are disenfranchised they tend to be radical. Just as poor/young people have provocative ideas, so does the LGBTQ community. The crazier demands are usually more of a plea for action than a real ideological point.
    The problem with allowing leaders to make such statements is that they influence other people. And while those fringe statements from the LGBTQ are radical, they are usually peaceful and inclusive; whereas the fringe statements from the religious are usually (as is illustrated above) violent and divisive.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Mwangi

    One more thing.

    I’m sure you know there is a gay gene. If one believes in natural selection, one must wonder why this gene would have survived all these years if it did not serve a legitimate purpose.
    Evolutionary psychologists believe that homosexuals (because they previously couldn’t bear children) disproportionately benefited their extended family by providing for the young of their siblings. These young would grow up to be more successful and capable than those with no homosexual relatives. Who could be against that? Here’s who: Those people with no (visible) homosexual relatives or community members …
    Even now, where homosexuals are capable of bearing children, they still disproportionately contribute to the community. They tend to be more educated and constructive than other people. This, the result of being a member of the fringe community; homosexuals must be more simply to be accepted/functional in a society.

    I’d suggest you do some more reading on this matter. The (positive) impact that the LGBTQ community has had on societies is fascinating.

  • Brett Nortje

    While we’re occupied with affairs of state – Cape style…..

    http://m.news24.com/rapport/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Malema-soek-80-van-wit-grond-20111022

  • D Mwangi

    Baer:

    1) “You’re mistaking reality with general consensus. Homosexuals are more accepted there than they are most other places, but there is still stigma. Google ‘homophobia in netherlands’.
    There is also some exceptionalism at work, even where homosexuals are widely accepted. They are not expected to ‘act’ in the same way that heterosexuals do. This needs to be remedied.”

    There is probably more stigmatisation in places like Netherlands and New Zealand of people like me who oppose homosexual behavior than homosexuals. Moreover, the studies I’ve seen show that psychological problems go hand in hand with homosexual BEHAVIOR. Eg. Non-practicing homosexuals who would still be subject to the same stigma do not have as much mental illness, suicide, etc. as active homosexuals. My hypothesis is that dealing with things like anal fissures, anal sores, cancer, incontinence, hepatitis, giardia, etc. probably has a lot more to do with the psychological and social pathologies seen in the gay community than stigma does.

    2) There are mountains of studies showing that children raised by their biological parents in stable, low-conflict families fare better than all other arrangements. There have been no large-scale, peer-reviewed studies about the longitudinal impacts to children of being raised in homosexual homes. However, I believe when these studies come out, they will bear out the fact that human beings have a deep desire for parental love from their biological mother and father. Any group of adults– 5 monks, 3 nuns, 8 social workers, etc.– can band together to raise a child and do an admirable job. But even in cases where children are raised by loving adoptive parents, most children still long to know and reunite with their biological parents. It is part of human nature to want to know and be cared for by the people who gave us life.

    3) Saying that lesbian women have a right to be artificially inseminated is to say that children should have no expectation of being raised by their biological parents– or even knowing them. This is the kind of radicalism I referenced earlier.

    4) I’m glad to hear you think the heads of the “Gender and Sexuality” Depts. of Columbia and Harvard are “fringe” elements. I agree they should be academically marginalised and institutions that employ them should not be taken seriously.

    5) A gay gene? You have got to be kidding! There is no scientific evidence for this whatsoever. Evolutionary psychology? Well, since racism has been around since the beginning of time it too must serve some evolutionary purpose. And I suppose since many racist Europeans invented nice things we could say they were more constructive members of society. My response would be that we should rid people of racist beliefs and homosexual conduct,–not the people themselves– while appreciating the gifts and accomplishments they share with society.

    6) Homosexual behavior, for people inclined to it, is much like drugs are to a drug addict. It might feel good but that does not mean it’s healthy. One can easily envision a dynamic, healthy, flourishing society in which no homosexual acts were committed. (Homosexuals choosing not to act on that particular desire.) I believe this would be a better society than the one we have now, both for homosexuals and the communities they inhabit. If that makes me a homophobe, so be it. The LBGTQ lobby uses that shibboleth so often it has rendered it meaningless.

  • D Mwangi

    Baer:

    I would also warn you to be careful what you wish for. If someday it is found that there is a genetic marker for homosexuality, I have no doubt that once it can be identified via amniocentesis, homosexuals will become prime candidates for abortions– the same way that over 90% of Down Syndrome children are. Large pharmaceutical and medical companies will immediately start developing gene manipulation drugs and other techniques to alter homosexual genes.

    If it is has an identifiable physiological cause, it will either be “cured” or aborted.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    1) ‘Non-practicing homosexuals who would still be subject to the same stigma do not have as much mental illness, suicide, etc. as active homosexuals.’

    Well, yeah. Because they aren’t pissing as many people off. If a homophobe sees a ‘non-practicing’ homosexual, they can pretend that the person isn’t a faggot. But if that same homophobe sees a homosexual ‘practicing’, he or she would probably attack, emotionally or physically, that homosexual. Even if the homophobe doesn’t emotionally or physically attack them, he or she still probably excludes the homosexual socially: he or she probably doesn’t hire the homosexual, doesn’t let them rent or buy a residence, doesn’t allow them to participate meaningfully in the community, et cetera. Such exclusionary measures by homophobes obviously lead to psychological and social disorders.

    Instead of asking the homosexual to change, I suggest we should ask the homophobe to change his view about the homosexual. Just like white people have been asked to change their views about black people, or Christians their view of Muslims …

    ‘My hypothesis is that dealing with things like anal fissures, anal sores, cancer, incontinence, hepatitis, giardia, etc. probably has a lot more to do with the psychological and social pathologies seen in the gay community than stigma does.’

    I don’t understand this. Please rephrase it.

    2) You believe something without having proof for it? Okay … As I said, there have been studies done that have discovered that children of same-sex parents do not fare better or worse than children of opposite-sex parents. Stability can in large part be attributed to the community in which a family lives. I’m sure poor families are not as stable as rich ones, for instance. Would you like to tell them they should not have children? If stability is all you’re looking for, I’d suggest that same-sex parents probably have a much more stable relationship than do different-sex parents, due to sex and gender differences in the heterosexual parents that cause inherent instability. I can honestly say I get along much more easily with my male friends than I do my girlfriend. How about you?

    3) Are you against adoption, too? And divorce, also? One of the biological parents would be caring for the child, usually; seeing as the lesbian mother would usually give birth to the child. Having an additional parent of the same sex as your mother is not really much different than having a father that is not your biological father. If you’re arguing that children should be exposed to the gender roles they are expected to play, I have to ask you why you find gender roles so important. If you’re scared that children of same-sex parents might turn out to be gay, I can allay your fear; studies (again out of California) have shown that children of same-sex families are no more likely to be gay than children of straight families. And even if there is some value to having gender examples, I’d suggest that extended family and the community can just as well provide those examples. You can just as easily pick up gender stereotypes from school, church, aunts, grandfathers and entertainment as you can from parents.

    4) They may well be. I don’t personally know them. I don’t have anything against polygamous and/or promiscuous relationships, but I recognise that others might. That being said, even if I don’t want to participate in such relationships, I recognise other peoples’ right to do whatever it is they wish with their own bodies. Would you like someone to tell you who you can and cannot sleep with?

    5) I’m not kidding, actually. I can give you references and such, if you’d like. Or you can just google ‘gay gene’ …

    6) Racism does serve a purpose. It ensures that people with genes more similar to yours procreate more than people with genes less similar to yours. It speaks to the genetic imperative to further one’s own, or one’s family’s (broadly speaking), genes. Of course, there are also counter-forces- the need to strengthen the gene pool by including differences, for instances. I don’t know how racism is anything like homosexuality, though, so let’s drop this point; or otherwise make a more cogent argument.

    7) I suppose this depends on whether you see homosexuality as a disease or not. Should we also eliminate blonde hair, black skin, slanty eyes? :) How about culling a preference for booty over fine breasts from the genetic pool? :) In view of the overpopulation of the planet, one could well want for more homosexuals.

  • D Mwangi

    Baer:

    This will be my last post since you’re obviously more interested in trying to ‘win’ an argument or convince me, than have a dialogue.

    1) You’re simply conjecturing. Obviously, there are many non-practicing homosexuals and even ppl who others misidentify as homosexuals who would be subject to the same stigmatisation. Yet, these ppl do not have the same rates of psychological problems. As I said, I think the fact that practicing homosexuals have so many health problems, as a result of the anatomical reality that gay sex is unhealthy, (eg. the anal fissures, anal sores, cancer, incontinence, hepatitis, giardia, etc. I referenced earlier) probably explains their social and psychological problems more than stigma does.

    2) “There are mountains of studies showing that children raised by their biological parents in stable, low-conflict families fare better than all other arrangements.” Read the literature. I repeat there is no academic consensus about the impacts to children of being raised in homosexual homes because no large-scale, peer-reviewed, longitudinal studies have been completed. Why do you insist on believing something which has yet to demonstrated????

    3) I am not against adoption or divorce. However, they are not ideal. My point had nothing to do with gender roles. That is something you wrongly inferred because your thinking is so permeated by radical gender studies nonsense and its hermeneutics of patriarchy and heteronormativity. I was merely making the point that ppl have a strong desire to know and be cared for by the ppl who gave them life. Eg. Both of their biological parents. Adopted children who were raised in loving, two-parent household often seek to reunite with their biological parents at some point in their lives. This is not because they are seeking out gender roles. It’s because of something deeply ingrained in human nature.

    4) It seems like I already said gays were on firmer footing when they were merely asking ppl not to intervene in the privacy of their bedrooms. That said, if I had a friend who was engaging in dangerous or unhealthy sexual practices, I would, as gently as possible, advise them not to. Sometimes caring about ppl means caring about their sex lives.

    5) Google it all you want. There is no peer-reviewed journal or scientific consensus that there is any genetic basis for homosexuality.

    6) My point was that just because something serves an evolutionary purpose does not make it moral. Murdering ppl who are incapable of producing more than they consume may serve an evolutionary purpose, however, most ppl would not find it moral.

    7) I was not taking a normative position. I was telling you what will happen. You are naive if you think that mothers will not abort babies they know in advance will be homosexual. Or that ppl will not give their children drugs to cure homosexuality.

    Being female is hardly considered a disease, yet look at the sex-selective abortions that occur in China and India. Also, your Malthusian nonsense about overpopulation is ridiculous. It has no basis in scientific reality or what economics tells us about the productivity gains from specialization or exponential growth from innovation.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    How is it obvious that I’m trying to ‘win’ this argument? I’m bringing up points which contradict yours. Should I not? How am I supposed to indicate a willingness to dialogue? Isn’t that willingness evident from my corresponding with you? I am making the points as bluntly as possible for expediency, not rudeness, if that’s what you’re interpreting as intellectual competitiveness. Or if it’s the :)- they aren’t necessarily hostile.

    1) ‘You’re simply conjecturing.’
    Yes, but it’s a logical conjecture. Whenever people are placed under stress they tend to develop psychological and social ills. Homosexuals are people. Ergo, they will tend to develop psychological and social ills because of stress placed on them by their community.

    ‘Obviously, there are many non-practicing homosexuals and even ppl who others misidentify as homosexuals who would be subject to the same stigmatisation. Yet, these ppl do not have the same rates of psychological problems.’
    Imagine you are able to hide your blackness. White people in general would treat you differently if you hid your blackness, or denied your blackness (‘coconut’), than if you embrace your blackness. Can you tell me this is not so? Most white people don’t get funny looks on their faces when you tell them you eat chicken legs?

    2) Because what there is, indicates what I’ve stated? I will read up on this, though, thanks. Do you have any easily accessible sources for the studies you cite?
    But please answer my question. I would like to understand how homosexual-led families differ from poor-led families, or war veteran-led families, or rape victim-led families, et cetera. Would you disqualify the other examples from parenting simply because they are not as stable as parents of other backgrounds?

    3) ‘I am not against adoption or divorce. However, they are not ideal. My point had nothing to do with gender roles. That is something you wrongly inferred because your thinking is so permeated by radical gender studies nonsense and its hermeneutics of patriarchy and heteronormativity.’
    I was raising these possible nodes of difference so that I could reply to them- again, in an effort toward expediency.

    ‘I was merely making the point that ppl have a strong desire to know and be cared for by the ppl who gave them life. Eg. Both of their biological parents. Adopted children who were raised in loving, two-parent household often seek to reunite with their biological parents at some point in their lives. This is not because they are seeking out gender roles. It’s because of something deeply ingrained in human nature.’

    Okay. I know a lot of homosexual families do include the non-partner in the parenting relationship. Would that allay your fear in this regard?

    4) But would you mandate to them what they should do? No. Why is it okay, then, to mandate to homosexuals what they should do with their bodies?

    5) Most scientists agree that while there is not a single factor that defines sexual orientation, genetics plays a part. If you do not want to look at the studies and decide for yourself whether the science is sound or not, then what is the point of this conversation? If you have looked at the studies and decided that they are not sound, fine.

    6) Yes, I understood. But now we get into the philosophy of morals and we could be stuck here forever … What I am saying, in turn, is that our cultures, religions, et cetera, all developed because of external and internal stimuli, not because they were handed to us from an external, ephemeral source. (I hope we can agree on this; otherwise we may as well not converse.) What remains to be decided with regard to homosexuality is whether society will accept it or not. Also, there is nothing inherently moral or immoral about consenting adults participating in sex acts with each other. Are you going to say that the bible says it’s immoral, so it must be? (Again, for the sake of expediency-) If so, well, I’ll point out that the bible was written by people who didn’t like homosexuals, so it’s hardly helpful here. There were people before the bible existed, in Greece, who didn’t really have a problem with homosexuality, provided that children were not involved and that the people who ‘practiced’ homosexuality still procreated.

    7) Yes, but what am I supposed to reply to that? It struck me as a bit passive-aggressive, so I thought I’d best reply to it by pointing out that the aggression was not warranted.

    8) I didn’t call anything that you had to say nonsense. Give me the same courtesy, please. You give me less respect than (theoretically) you do the friend who is participating in unsafe sexual practices. :) Whatever the universal truths may be, it is certain that there are whole countries are suffering in part because they are so overpopulated.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    I have no idea how that smiley face with the shades appeared …

    Testing:

    :)
    8)
    ;)
    “)
    S)

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Oh okay. Oops. Typo: ‘8’ and ‘)’

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, the fact is that the US is sending in uber-macho Special Forces troops to fight the virulently homophobic Lords Resistance Army, which is battling the nasty homophobes of Kampala. I want to be a consistently progressive anti imperialist. So whom do I support?

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Oh, that thing about homosexual sex causing illness: so does heterosexual sex. Anything that places strain on any part of your body is going to cause inflammation, infection, et cetera. Even missionary-style vaginal intercourse :P

    The mere act of bumping into someone causes injury to their tissues and could lead to cancer. Breathing causes cancer!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    October 23, 2011 at 21:37 pm

    Dworky,

    You cannot be be (1) consistent, (2) progressive and (3) anti imperialist all at the same time.

    Choose one!

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Baer

    “Whatever the universal truths may be, it is certain that there are whole countries are suffering in part because they are so overpopulated”

    What is overpopulation and which countries are referring to???

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Baer

    I guess in your circle or family you throw a big celebration when someone announces that they are gay.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    D Mwangi says:
    October 23, 2011 at 20:16 pm

    I would like to see a lot more research on this topic too. Particularly what the average age is at which gays had their first sexual experience. I would like to know in how many cases we are actually dealing with child abuse although that is going to be an unpopular inquiry because sex and identity are so narrowly intertwined.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    October 24, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Hey Goofy,

    “I would like to see a lot more research on this topic too.”

    It seem that you have much in common with Mathew Gills (October 21, 2011 at 15:13 pm) – “I would like to find out if the Prof himself has come out of the closet?”

    You and he are nominated to go undercover into the closet and do some investigations.

    Report back regularly!

  • Gwebecimele

    Last week in the same area in Soweto kids died after locking themselves in a toilet while playing. They drowned and died of the fumes.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/kids-suffocate-in-metal-trunk-1.1163318

    A BMW from the HANDBOOK or a few nights at ONE & ONLY can build a playground in that community.

    May be we can send Mazibuko from DA to teach them life survival skills and play stations.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    What I find interesting is that there are any number of groups that would rejoice if homosexuals are discovered to be deviant or detrimental to society, but that these groups have not funded any research into such hypotheses.

    Or have they? If they have, where is this research?

    If homosexuality turns out to be ‘wrong’, fine. I’ll reverse my stance. But research is pointing in the opposite direction- that it is ‘good’ and ‘normal’- so that is my stance until evidence to the contrary outweighs what data is already available on the topic.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Baer
    October 24, 2011 at 11:49 am

    Hey Baer,

    “Or have they? If they have, where is this research?”

    Have a word with Prof Fagan.

    He told us that homosexuals are more likely to be paedophiles or thereabouts.

    p.s. Since you’re open to ‘reversing your stance’, join Brett and Mathew Gills in the closet – for purely research purposes.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    D Mwangi
    I would really appreciate replies to my points raised. Otherwise I’ll have to conclude that you do not want to engage honestly with people and decide instead to abandon conversations at the slightest sign of resistance from the other party. I am more than willing to accept what you have to say, if there is a good basis for it. Show me that basis.

    Gwebs
    We haven’t had occasion to react one way or the other- no gayness to speak of- but I don’t think I’d do anything. Someone’s gay? Big deal. Can’t speak for the rest of my family. They’re a bit more conservative. (They might be thrown but would get over it.) Much like many South Africans.
    Each generation’s conservatives bemoan the end of civilisation/morals/intellectualism. These fears always turn out to be unfounded.

    Overpopulation: Poorer countries don’t have the capacity to support their populations. The fastest way to improve these countries’ living standards is to to simultaneously improve productivity and decrease populations or slow population growth.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Gwebecimele
    October 24, 2011 at 11:36 am

    Hey Gwebs,

    These are POOR people – so tough luck.

    The HANDBOOK benefits are there for specific purposes – to ensure that Comrade Ministers have constant access to their work and they are not harassed by mosquitoes.

    Anyway there are enough other funds available to steal from, oops I mean for development in poor areas – like http://ndp.treasury.gov.za/default.aspx.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Baer

    “decrease populations or slow population growth”

    Sounds like a brilliant idea but what if the countries start experiencing negative population growth or Total Fertlity Rates run at below 2.1 (replacement level). How do you turn it around? May be creating a Euro Zone helps for a while and issuing Green cards to the economically active Africans.

    Please google “Reverend Maltheus” and read about his wise predictions.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Seriously, what do people have against Google?

    Maggs

    See:

    http://www.ipce.info/host/howitt/2c.htm
    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

    Excerpt:

    ‘How Could “Straight” Men Be Attracted To Boys?
    If these molesters aren’t lying when they say they’re straight, why would they abuse boys? What could possibly be the attraction?
    […]
    Amongst the heterosexuals, the commonest remarks concerning attractive features of the victims, were that the young boys did not have any body hair and that their bodies were soft and smooth.
    This explains the apparent contradiction of straight men abusing young boys. They really are straight– they’re responding to the feminine qualities of pre-pubescent boys, qualities that gay men didn’t find appealing. After all, gay men are, by definition, attracted to men; the feminine characteristics of young boys were a turn-off to them.’

    ‘p.s. Since you’re open to ‘reversing your stance’, join Brett and Mathew Gills in the closet – for purely research purposes.’

    LOL!

    I think I’m bored now. Next topic.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Baer

    Please dont take us back to this old thinking.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebe

    “I guess in your circle or family you throw a big celebration when someone announces that they are gay.”

    I don’t know what Baer family circle does, but we hosted a huge “COMING OUT” party for my niece (11), when she finally disclosed her orientation. (Family had long suspected it, but didn’t want to pre-empt anything.)

    Also, Gwebs, I trust you are joking about “Model C” Mazibuko teaching anything to our youth. One would not want this ambitious young lady to “instruct” ANC on the deeply entrenched culture of corruption allegedly prevalent in certain opposition circles!

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Gwebecimele

    Thanks. Demography’s not really my thing. You learn something new … Will see what I can find out tonight. But now it’s time for lunch.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    October 24, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Dworky,

    “we hosted a huge COMING OUT party”.

    That is soooooo sweet.

    I’m thinking of hosting a huge GOING IN party for Brett, Mathew Gills and Baer.

    Will you arrange collections?

    p.s. Let’s think too about a GONE OFF party for Judge Isaac Madondo – http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/on-indians-africans-and-a-lack-of-emotional-intelligence/

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
    October 24, 2011 at 11:23 am

    You have the kind of intuitive intelligence that make “it seem” that a bull is a cow.

    I would remind you of the post where I demanded that 13 and 14 year olds with babies on their backs should be carted off in a police van and made to out the father.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    October 24, 2011 at 13:49 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “intuitive intelligence”

    Are you in the closet yet?

    Reply only in CODE!

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Gwebs

    I won’t be on later so I’ll leave a quick reply.

    http://oneminute.rationalmind.net/overpopulation/

    The attack against Malthus isn’t really justified, at least not in the example of poor, unproductive countries such as ours.

    You needn’t worry that the birth rate will drop so significantly as to not be able to replenish workers- as you’ve pointed out, people from other African countries are more than willing to come here.

    There will always be people who breed more- usually the very rich and the very poor- but it is important to slow the birth rate overall until we become a production- and information-society rather than a service-society.

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2011-10-24-how-to-bring-sa-manufacturing-back-from-the-tipping-point

    Again, this is where we needn’t worry about foreigners, much, because they ARE generally educated and skilled. They already contribute to such a society. Local populations are not, and do not, generally.

    The one absolutely essential way to improve living conditions- by increasing our productivity and decreasing our birth rates- is to improve education. If we do nothing else, we must improve education. Education increases the productivity of people, which in turn reduces the number of children they produce.

    I’ll try to encapsulate this … It’s been a long day.

    We need to put in place those conditions which will slow down birth rates and increase productivity because SA’s population will increase regardless of whether we do this or not. At least, by improving education, we are putting in place those circumstances which are conducive to the self-improvement and -empowerment of people, which will ensure that even if they do start out poor they will be able to end up not-poor. If we do not this, all we end up with is a really large population of very poor people. If we do, do this, we may just have a large population of poor people, a large population of middle class people, and a large population of upper class people.

    The slower birth rates of the ‘upper’ and ‘middle’ echelons ensures that there is always more space for the ‘lower’ echelons to manoeuvre themselves into a better life. We don’t really have that at the moment. All we have is a lot of poor people and a smattering of rich people.

    I’m not sure I’m making much sense. I’ll come back to this when I’m not so tired.

    Did you know that there are only ~3000 people in South Africa who earn more than R5 million a year?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    I say Malthus was a RACIST who used catastropgu-mongering as a pretext to reduce the reproduction of Africans. As Mr Malema pointed out not so long ago, it is the duty of our women to produce many children to share our great natural wealth. And, although our Constitution expressly empower all sexual orientations, I do not think we can entirely discount the possibility that homosexuality is part and parcel a Malthusian liberal media conspiracy to undermine our birth rate and faciliate the recolonisation, signified by the murder of Colonel Gadaffi and Obama’s sending of troops to Uganda!

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    castargropu = castration anxiety

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Of course there is a question whether it is RACIST or CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA and whether it is just hiding these PROBLEMS.

    There is some truth to the CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA idea. I don’t think unbridled capitalism is a healthy thing, and to some extent it does have to apologise for the excesses of that system. I won’t go into details here. I’m sure people are able to work this one out for themselves.

    But to go in the opposite direction toward total SOCIALISM is a bad idea too.

    Whatever the ideal middle-model, though, people will continue to reproduce, so even in an ideal model I think we would need some CASTARGROPIC MALTHUSIANISM!

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    October 24, 2011 at 11:14 am

    Hey Goofy,

    Not quite research – but here’s an investigation that ought to bring tears to the eyes of the strongest among us.

    NKEPILE Mabuse, CNN’s Johannesburg correspondent, says her recent research into the lives of lesbians fighting for acceptance has left her in shock.

    Mabuse in this new documentary called World’s Untold Stories: They Call It Corrective Rape reveals the extent to which lesbians, often attacked and raped to “cure” them of the “disease”, are abused and harassed in South Africa’s townships.

    Speaking to Sowetan yesterday, the award-winning CNN’s Johannesburg correspondent poured her heart out about her experience of the lives of lesbians in a conservative society.

    “The level of abuse lesbians suffer from society is shocking. We have often read about the attacks, but what I did not know personally, until I did this documentary, is the constant daily abuse leading to the attacks. These people live in fear in a society where, despite the recognition of their sexuality by the Constitution, they still get harassed, attacked and raped.

    “I spent days with some of these lesbians, particularly in Khayelitsha (a township in Cape Town). One of the lesbians in the documentary was stabbed 30 times and gang-raped by four men.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2011/10/25/shock-of-corrective-rape-uncovered

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Hayibo Reverend,

    Look at this – worse than the “foos was awefull, the chicken was baked in old oil”!

    Let’s campaign to remove Brazil from BRICS.

    Brasilia – Brazil’s Supreme Court on Tuesday for the first time upheld a same-sex civil marriage.

    In a 4 – 1 vote, the highest federal court ruled that the Constitution “makes it possible for stable civil unions to become marriages”.

    Indeed “sexual orientation should not serve as a pretext for excluding families from the legal protection that marriage represents”, the court said in a statement.

    http://www.news24.com/World/News/Brazil-high-court-allows-gay-marriage-20111026

  • Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt

    HOMOSEXUALITY IS A CRIME
    I am fully aware that The Gay and Lesbian communities are going to crucify me for what I am about to say, but all homosexuals must know that being homosexual is a crime and our government should treat such sick practise as such and homosexuals must be prosecuted and jailed for their homosexual activity. No healthy human being or government should accept homosexuals as normal, but in my opinion homosexuality equals to crime. I do not agree with homosexuality but, I don’t also agree with crime. The Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality is crystal clear and there is not one theologian that can dispute it, God hate sin and homosexuality is sin.
    I have been labelled homophobic, a bigot and judgmental, and a gay basher who discriminate against a minority group. Well I go on record to say just as I don’t approve of the filthy lifestyle of homosexuals I don’t agree with crime, but I don’t hear people call me adultery basher, premarital sex basher, abortion basher, kidnap basher, fraud basher, corruption basher, drug basher, because I don’t agree with crime, but I am labelled a gay basher because I have the courage to speak out against homosexuals and because I refuse to solemnize marriages of same sex couples.
    I firmly believe that homosexuals should be criminally prosecuted just as murderers, rapist, fraudsters, adulterers, thieves, paedophiles, women and children abusers, drunk drivers or any person who breaks the law. I my humble opinion, murderers, rapist, child abuser/paedophiles, kidnappers and homosexuals should receive maximum penalty and I believe they should be either be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives or they must hanged. I have been asked why I believe that that homosexuals should pay with their lives, the answer is simple homosexual action facilitate the transmission of herpes, hepatitis B, intestinal parasites, Kaposi’s Sarcoma and HIV and AIDS and as a result of these diseases spread by homosexuals, millions of people are infected and dies annually. Homosexuality is a curse and our communities should be delivered from these evil.
    Homosexuals organization have some ways of promoting their personal choice of being gay or lesbians through religious forum and even quoting scriptures to justify their bizarre lifestyle. They claim that God created them gay/lesbian that is why there lifestyle has God’s approval, this no is lie and not true, they are living these perverted lifestyle because of their own choices. Their lifestyle has absolutely nothing to do with God; they are homosexuals by choice and because of their sinful nature. Some homosexuals, especially homosexual clergy tries to give us the false impression that the Bible actually promotes homosexuality, while other non believing homosexuals try to get the Bible banned from public use by categorizing the Word of God as hate literature, well they will never be successful, the Bible/Word of God has out lived all its critics and it will outlive them all.
    For any to use the Bible to condone rather to condemn homosexuals activity in the theological arena just prove that such a theologian or cleric has no idea what the Bible teaches on homosexual life style. Any person whether theologian or cleric who that claims that homosexual activity is acceptable to God is nothing short of wilful blindness. Let me take this opportunity to rectify them and tell them that God is going to hold them responsible for misleading His people and they will burn in hell. Their corrupted version of the Bible is a lie and they are misleading people to claim that God approves sin.

    Anyone who has heard of the cities of “Sodom and Gomorrah” knows that they were notorious hotbeds of homosexuality. Gen 19:5-8 “and they called to Lot and said to him, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.’ But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the door behind him, and said, ‘Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly.'” The Greek word in the New Testament for homosexuality is literally “a sodomite”. Jock is trying to redefine what the term “sodomite” means. (A term that has unchanged in 5000 years, even today- “sodomy”) Apart from the fact the city was clearly destroyed by God because of homosexuality in the narrative of Gen 19, even the New Testament clearly states exactly the same thing in Jude 7 “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” Any sinner should always remember that the God who commands us to love our neighbour is the same God who will cast any and all unrepentant sinners into the “eternal fire”. Here are more Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” Lev 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.” 1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals” 1 Tim 1:9-10 “realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers” Rom 1:26-27 “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
    If the homosexual community chooses to practice homosexuality in privacy, that is there free choice. But let such persons know for certain that the Christian Bible condemns all such practices and God will judge them unfit for the kingdom of heaven if they continue to practice and openly promote homosexual sex. I said it in the past and I will say it again homosexuals does not God’s approval and no church, cleric, theologian not even the homosexual friendly Desmond Tutu can change the fact that homosexuality is an abomination and any person who approve of their lifestyle is condemn to burn in hell.
    Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt (REF: Rev OPB/CNAH 2012)

  • Terence

    Crucify him! Crucify him!

  • brian

    I want the pastor to go read what Lot wanted to give them instead his daughters if I am not mistaken so just this question do you think God would deem this good and honourable??? I would really like to know what your thoughts are on this subject and let’s not forget David killed a man because he coveted his fellow brothers wife but he is heralded a hero. And all through the bible arabs are treated badly does this warant christians to continue this path and condone adultery by men high in the clergy or the killing of innocent muslims just because of their religion

  • wesley potgieter

    Reverend Bougardt: people and fellow citizens of the world, this fool does not represent the Pastors and Leaders of his community. this fool is an island on his own. A trusted source told me that 90% of his followers left him because of his arrogant cult that he is busy with. he believes he is right and no one is wrong. however the source tells me he is a beggar and a loafer. A friend of mine that works at tygerberg hospital told me that his wife is working alone and she is fed up with his lazy attitude. Anyway let me come to some real facts about this cult leader(REV BOUGARDT). He stole R8000 from my brother in law and also promised people that he could clear their names from itc, got their money (I mean poor people), and they are still blacklisted> this fool stays at nr 22 Pointer way Strandfontein Cape Town. We need to arrange a proptest march to his house. he is a human rights violator. Reverend bougardt You are being exposed. I am asking everybody to paste this notice where you can.

  • wesley potgieter

    Reverend Bougardt: people and fellow citizens of the world, this fool does not represent the Pastors and Leaders of his community. this fool is an island on his own. A trusted source told me that 90% of his followers left him because of his arrogant cult that he is busy with. he believes he is right and no one is wrong. however the source tells me he is a beggar and a loafer. A friend of mine that works at tygerberg hospital told me that his wife is working alone and she is fed up with his lazy attitude. Anyway let me come to some real facts about this cult leader(REV BOUGARDT). He stole R8000 from my brother in law and also promised people that he could clear their names from itc, got their money (I mean poor people), and they are still blacklisted> this fool stays at nr 22 Pointer way Strandfontein Cape Town. We need to arrange a proptest march to his house. he is a human rights violator. Reverend bougardt You are being exposed. I am asking everybody to paste this notice where you can.he is a CULT LEADER.All the pastors and leaders in Cape town hates his ideas. Please let us Unite together to Stop this Cult> next time you know it he will
    probably lock himself and his 15 followers up in a cave and say they are the only ones that will go to heaven. Reverend Bougardt smell the coffee, The human rights commission is coming for you

  • wesley potgieter

    sorry everybody> the fool Reverend bougardt stays at nr 28 Pointer Way in Strandfontein, Just got the info now. Come on lets quiet this fool that wants to be a hero of nothing down

  • Rev OP Bougardt

    The only way homosexuals can be freed from the sick lifestyle is to repent, turn to Jesus and they will be freed and save. God love us all, but He hates our sinful lifestyle. Homosexuality is NOT a medical condition but the mind set of those who choose to live a homosexual lifestyle. We are the master of our own disaster, so it is not right to blame God for sinful choices we make. If homosexuality was a medical condition God would not had destroy an entire city because of the promiscuous homosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals choose their own lifestyle and their lifestyle is an abomination to God. The only way they will be freed from their lifestyle is to repent and turn to Jesus Christ.

    Homosexuals comes to the Cape Flats seduce our young people with alcohol, drugs, money in turn for sex. Our children are so confused, homosexuals contribute to alcoholism and drug addiction problems, and even to gangsterism on the Cape Flats. They feed youngsters with drugs and alcohol, and are the cause why some young people are addicted to substance, when they done with our young people and after they been used to fulfill they sexual needs of homosexuals, they are dropped of on the Cape Flats, these youngster know addicted to alcohol and drugs than break into houses on the Cape Flats to feed the drug and alcohol habits, subsequently join gangsters, steal from their own family and friends, rape and murder children. Homosexuality is a danger.

    Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Rev Bougardt

    “The only way homosexuals can be freed from the sick lifestyle is to repent, turn to Jesus and they will be freed”

    Like Ozoneboy, Dmangi, and JR, I certainly discern a PINKIST colonial agenda to impose Gayness and SAPPHISM on Africa. That is why I also demand that the Reverend renounce the colonialist ideology of so-called “Christianity”, which has shackled our people as worshippers of an obscure Jewish rabbi that even his own people rejected!

    Thanks a lot.

  • Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt

    Homosexuals Are Cursed By God
    Today I ask the question, are homosexuals bless or cursed by God? It is obvious that all homosexuals or any person involved in a same sex relationship are cursed, and they will remain cursed until they repent and turn to God and accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and leave their perverted lifestyles. Below you find Biblical prove that homosexuals is cursed by God and their perverted lifestyle will see them burning in the hell for abdominal deeds committed by gays and lesbians. What we don’t seem to understand that the curse upon homosexuals have a negative impact in our lives, this is evident in our countries high crime rates. All countries that is homosexual friendly and accept homosexuality as normal are cursed with different plagues, while countries who are against homosexuals prosper. Have a look at all Islamic countries who don’t allow homosexuals in their country and who don’t have any homosexual friendly laws, they get richer and richer, their crime rates are low, they hardly have any person that unemployed, they are bless because they don’t allow homosexuality God bless them. Have a look at South Africa who is homosexual friendly, unemployment at 30%, children raped and murdered daily, 7o ooo unborn babies murdered in 2011 at the government murder clinics, than they call it abortion, whilst we are all aware its murder, miners killed by the South African Police force who is suppose to protect them, children are kidnapped and murder for muti purposes, children are raped by their own fathers, the government corrupt, daily bodies are picked up across the country, women and children abuse the highest in the world, drugs and alcohol abuse is out of control, pensioners are raped and murdered, children and grand children rapes their own parent and grandparents and blame alcohol and drugs for crimes committed, where ever you go in South Africa is crime, crime, crime and more crime. South Africa is cursed because they legalized homosexuality and all its citizens are paying the full price for accepting homosexuality. I believe once the South African government banned homosexual laws we will be bless again, but while people accept homosexuals and treat them as normal people we will remain cursed. I call on South Africans and the South African government to take the Word of God very serious and ban homosexual laws and seek God’s face and trust God to bless our country again. Leviticus 20v13; If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death, their blood will be on their own hands. I call upon the South African government to reinstate the death penalty for rape, murder, armed robberies, drug smuggling, child rapist and child molesters and not to spare homosexuals the rod, execute them if they are caught in homosexual acts, their blood will be on the own hands. Take time to read what I researched and share with the world, and be aware that we are cursed because we accept homosexuality.
    Gen 1:26 Than God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
    Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said to them. “Be fruitful and increase in numbers, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over very living creature that moves on the ground.
    “God blessed them,” i.e., the mating of the male to the female so that they could “be fruitful and multiply” (produce children). The ability to reproduce is a blessing from God. HE DID NOT BLESS THE MATING OF THE MALE TO ANOTHER MALE, or the mating of a female to another female. Scripture shows that God must bless human sexual union so that children can be produced, and since He does not let homosexuals reproduce, homosexuality is not blessed by God. If homosexuals are not blessed, then they are cursed; there is no neutral ground; it is Heaven or Hell.
    It seems that God intended for the homosexual lifestyle to symbolize death. As we have seen in the last decade, a male homosexual’s typical life span is 40% – 80% of the national average for males. Homosexuals live outside God’s blessing. Most are ostracized by the heterosexual society, leave no beneficiaries born of their loins with their male lovers, live greatly shortened lives, and are very sickly in their later years. God makes homosexuals pay dearly for living contrary to His intent.
    Still, as homosexuals suffer and see their comrades suffer and fall, they shun to seek repentance. Instead, they resolve to find solutions to counteract the curses of God, so they might continue to live in their perverseness.
    Thus, their persistent clinging to their unblessed lifestyle is absolute proof of their profound, acute rebellion to the designs of God. Homosexuals would rather suffer greatly than to live in honor to God. They live and die having a supreme, consummate disrespect for God.
    The Almighty uses homosexuals to demonstrate that a man’s life apart from Him is dead (John 5:40). Homosexuality is the sexual merger of the spiritually dead. Since homosexual unions cannot duplicate themselves, they are like dead plants, dead animals, dead insects, or dead people who cannot reproduce.
    Homosexuality has no life within itself that can be reproduced, so it must survive by drafting the unsuspecting and unwise, like a parasite preying upon something that does have life. If homosexuals fail to recruit they cease to exist. By their inability to reproduce, homosexuals obviously live a deviant and abnormal form of life. All life that conducts its sexuality as commanded by God, reproduces itself.
    By God’s blessing, insects reproduce, plants reproduce, reptiles reproduce, beasts reproduce, fish reproduce, and animals reproduce, even a horse and donkey can produce a mule, but homosexuals must recruit. Heterosexual Blacks and Whites reproduce, Asians and Caucasians reproduce, Frenchmen and Russians reproduce, Eskimos and Lapplanders reproduce, but homosexuals must recruit.
    The heterosexual young reproduce, the old reproduce, the young with old reproduce, the rich reproduce, the poor reproduce, the rich with poor reproduce, but homosexuals must recruit. Though they are in sin, heterosexual drug addicts reproduce, alcoholics reproduce, crack heads reproduce, pimps reproduce, prostitutes reproduce, but homosexuals must recruit. Heterosexual adulterers reproduce, traitors reproduce, murderers reproduce, thieves reproduce, but every homosexual must recruit. Though one of the gravest sins, even incest between a father and daughter or between a mother and son can reproduce, but every homosexual must recruit.
    What does this imply about God’s endorsement of homosexuals? Even the gross sin of adultery, or the sin of fornication may produce a blessed offspring, showing that God is merciful to many men who sin grievously. But God limits his mercy to homosexuals, by prohibiting their disobedient sexual lifestyle from reproducing; they must always recruit. Even when homosexuals adopt, it is a type of recruitment.
    Balance homosexual and lesbian lifestyles on a scale with all other life forms that reproduce themselves, and it becomes obvious these practices are deviant and abnormal.
    From this perspective, heterosexual homeless people and mothers who habitually remain on government Welfare programs are more blessed than homosexuals and lesbians; God does permit the homeless and the Welfare mothers to bear children.
    Homosexuality is one of the worse sins of man. Like the sin of witchcraft, homosexuality is rebellious to the very intent of God (1 Sam 15:23). It cannot accomplish what God wants, i.e., women giving birth to more people who will worship Him.
    If homosexuality cannot perform God’s most basic purpose for man, how is it possible God will bless that lifestyle? Did not Christ curse the fig tree that produced no fruit (Mt 21:19-20; Mk 11:13-14)? Yet, in their blindness, homosexuals believe that God’s curse upon them is His blessing to them. They do not understand that God has rejected them, and “given them over to dishonor themselves” (Rom 1:24-32).
    Lev 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable (abominable).
    Homosexuals claim they are born with their sexual preference, but God commands men not to lie with men, showing they are exercising a rebellious sexual choice. Homosexuals were not born with their sexual preferences for the same gender. According to God’s command, they CHOOSE to be perverse and ungodly.
    Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall SURELY be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
    God says that homosexuals will SURELY be put to death. It seems, since governments are sympathetic to the perverse practices of homosexuals, God has decided to reduce both the sexual activity and the numbers of homosexuals, using a disease we call AIDS (Dt 28:58-61). AIDS also acts as a punishment against the society that permits homosexuality by affecting heterosexuals in secondary, non-sexual ways. This disease was unknown 50 years ago.
    Who can deny that AIDS has killed and infected homosexuals more than any other group in the United States? And many (not all) non-homosexuals who are infected with AIDS, live lifestyles that are disobedient to God’s law, or that sympathize with homosexuals (e.g., drug addicts, bisexuals, fornicators, adulterers, patients of doctors / dentists who are known to be homosexual).
    Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
    Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
    Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the DUE PENALTY for their perversion.
    God says that men and women “exchanged” the truth for a lie, natural relations for unnatural relations (vv. 25-26), again showing that homosexuals are exercising choice. The act of exchanging is an act of will. Homosexuals are not “born that way.”
    All Scripture is written by God (the Holy Spirit) using men as His writing instruments (2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:21). The Holy Spirit (God) says male/female sex is natural – v. 27, and that male/male and female/female sex is unnatural – v. 26.
    Look at the key words God (the Holy Spirit) uses to define homosexuality: sinful, sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, inflamed with lust, indecent, and perversion. Does this sound like a blessed or cursed lifestyle to you?
    Though many people are sympathetic toward homosexuals, this Scripture shows God withdrawing sympathy from them, no longer restraining them from exercising their unnatural, degrading lusts. Homosexuals defend their perversion so aggressively in part, because God has released them from His “leash” so they may satiate their depraved lusts – v. 24. God no longer bridles their consciences, nor brings into control, the corruption of their minds.
    Homosexuals are correct; they can’t help themselves. But they are incorrect when speaking of WHY they cannot help themselves. They are not “born that way.” They are people who prefer and practice homosexuality. Therefore, God has withdrawn His protection from them and handed them over to the demonic spirits who were always driving their homosexual lusts. Homosexuals were (and still are) influenced by Satan, who was restrained by God. But now, God no longer restrains Satan from “sifting” them.
    Everything born was created by God. The God who created them, denounces homosexuals as being perverse (v. 27). By making this declaration, He is saying they are functioning contrary to His design. Clearly, God’s express design and stated intention was for man to have sexual union with woman (after marriage).
    The Holy Spirit writes that certain men continued to lust for depraved sexual release – v. 24. So God gave it to them. Male and female homosexuals continue to be so, because God withdrew His protection from them and “gave them over” to the demonic control of Satan (e.g., Job 1:12, 2:6). They are now the servants of Satan (Rom 6:16) and they will inherit his doom (John 8:40-44; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 John 3:8-10), unless they petition God to grant them godly repentance (2 Corinthians 7:9-10), and He grants their plea.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    The Holy Spirit continues to describe homosexuals in unflattering terms. To stress an important point to those who would sympathize with homosexuals, God describes them as filled with unrighteousness, as filled with wickedness, as haters of God, as inventors of evil, as having no natural affection (albeit, they have unnatural affection), as beings who are uncompromising and unyielding (implacable), and as beings without mercy. This is GOD’S description of homosexuals, not man’s.
    Do the sympathizers of the homosexual lifestyle know better than God? Is their rationale perverse in view of what God has said?
    In the Bible, to serve His needs, God has used a repentant idol worshiper (Abram), a repentant prostitute (Rahab), a repentant runaway (Jonah), a repentant female sinner (unnamed), a repentant adulteress (unnamed), a repentant demoniac (Mary Magdalene), a repentant thief (Zacchaeus), a repentant liar (Peter), and a repentant murderer (Paul). It is noteworthy that the Bible shows no example of God using a repentant homosexual. It may be because the Bible has no examples of repentant homosexuals. Rather, God’s angels execute homosexuals (Gen 19).
    1 Kg 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
    1 Kg 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.
    1 Kg 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.
    1 Kg 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he [King Jehoshaphat] took out of the land.
    2 Kg 23:7 And he [King Josiah] brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
    God’s kings consistently banished homosexuals from God’s nation after reading Scripture.
    Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
    Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
    Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in ANY of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
    Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself VOMITETH out her inhabitants.
    Even God, Himself, banished homosexuals from the land of His people, by causing the land to vomit out the homosexuals.
    Notice how God speaks about homosexuality and bestiality in the same tones (v. 22-23), tying them together in the same context using the word, “neither,” as though they are too similar to be ignored. He says that the participants of both homosexuality and bestiality, the nation that accommodates and indulges homosexuals and bestializers, and the land inhabited by these people, is a nation who are ALL defiled.
    Even the New College Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1981), p. 126, uses the word “sodomy” as one definition of ‘bestiality.’ So similar are the sexual acts of a man with a man to the sexual acts of a man with a beast, they can be described by the same term, even today in these contemporary times.
    God says further that HE cast them out of their nation for these acts (v. 25). He describes homosexuals and bestializers as VOMIT! What a strong word God used to describe homosexuals! Do you still think that God sanctions homosexuals?
    Deuteronomy 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
    This seems to be pretty plain language. This statement is difficult to misunderstand. God does not permit His people to be homosexual. Restated, if you are a practicing homosexual, God has rejected you from being a part of His people.
    Deuteronomyt 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
    The Holy Spirit has called male prostitutes that worked in pagan temples, by an uncomplimentary name: “dog.” Empirical evidence shows that male prostitutes in those temples were homosexuals.
    The Hebrew word “dog” is ‘keleb’ in Strong’s Concordance, #3611 in the Hebrew Dictionary, and is defined as a euphemism for a male prostitute. BDB/Thayer defines it as the figurative name for a male, cult prostitute.
    Here is an excerpt from Harper’s Bible Dictionary, defining “dog.”(1)
    . . . the dog is uniformly pictured in the Bible as a pariah, without admirable characteristics . . . Bible dogs were scavengers (Ex 22:31), received only the unclean (Mt 7:6; 15:26), were indolent and stupid (Is 56:10 f.), and at night noisily took over the streets of the town (Ps 59:6, 14). Their disgusting eating habits (Pr 26:11; 2Pt 2:22) were noted; “dog” was a term of contempt (Dt 23:18) . . . Nowhere in Scripture is the dog portrayed with admirable characteristics.
    After calling them “dogs,” is it likely that the Living God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit will pity or respect homosexuals who call upon Them or worship Them, while they still embrace their perversion? Yet, people will argue that all this was said in the Old Testament (OT), as though God’s character somehow changes in the New Testament (NT).
    1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    Here it is again in the NT, AFTER the death and resurrection of Jesus. If God’s thinking has changed in the NT, this would be a good place to modify Scripture. But, God does not change His attitude about homosexuals. They are STILL AN ABOMINATION TO HIM! They still COMPARE WITH MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH ANIMALS!
    Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt (Research internet)

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Rev Oscar Peter Bougardt

    “Today I ask the question, are homosexuals bless or cursed by God?”

    The answer is: Homosexuals are bless by God.

    Now go home!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    October 20, 2012 at 22:28 pm

    Haibo Dworky,

    “The answer is: Homosexuals are bless by God.”

    You are lying to the Rev.

    Soon he will start believing that there is a god!

  • Maggs Naidu – ABZ! – Zuma must go (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dworky – this is just for you!!!!

    An atheist was more than a little surprised when he found Jesus – behind his fridge.

    Father-of-three Kenny Iddenden was shifting the old refrigerator at his Herne Bay home with his uncle Andy when they found this mystical patch of mould, which he claims looks eerily like the saviour.

    The unemployed 27-year-old, of Greenhill Gardens, posted the picture on Facebook, saying: “Look what I found on a mouldy wall!”

    The picture has drawn a massive reaction, with friends commenting on the “freaky” find.

    Others claim to have also spotted a lamb nuzzling up under the figure’s chin.

    Kenny said: “As soon as I saw it I thought ‘that looks like Jesus’.

    “I took a picture on my mobile and then wiped it off – it might look like Jesus but I’ve got three kids and can’t be doing with mould in my house.”

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentonline/news/2012/october/19/jesus_mould.aspx