Constitutional Hill

Why an attempt to stop the racial integration of residences at Maties is legally untenable

It is understandable (if not ethically acceptable) that some (but not all) “white” South Africans (who all continue to benefit from the effects of past unfair racial discrimination) would try to protect their unearned privileges by fighting to retain the status quo. At Stellenbosch University, members of this group are fighting a rear-guard action to try and block the full racial and linguistic integration of University residences. Unfortunately they are whipping up racial and jingoistic sentiments among former Stellenbosch students by making a demonstrably false claim, namely that proposed measures to integrate University residences would be in breach of the Constitution.

Like many other old (and in some circles highly regarded) institutions in South Africa, Stellenbosch University has a long history of racial discrimination and exclusion which was aimed at benefitting “white” Afrikaners and punishing and disadvantaging “black” people. Until the nineteen eighties the University was exclusively reserved for white students and until the nineteen nineties residences were racially segregated. In the late nineteen eighties some of us were threatened with expulsion for taking part in a protest march in support of racial integration of University residences. In other words, for many decades Stellenbosch University implemented race based affirmative action policies to benefit “white” Afrikaners, many of whom unfairly gained access to an excellent University education at the expense of members of other races.

Stellenbosch University is not unique in this regard. Many other institutions dominated by those who benefited or continue to benefit from the effects of past racial discrimination (including all the so called “liberal” former “white” Universities), have the same history. I discuss the Stellenbosch situation here only as a case study relating to a larger problem.

Ironically, many of the children and grandchildren of those “white” Afrikaners who benefited from unfair racial discrimination in the past and who, in turn, today enjoy educational and financial privileges because their parents benefited from racial oppression and discrimination, now fight against the implementation of redress measures in the name of non-racialism. Talk about Orwellian double-speak. They insist on the retention of a system that would reward the skills, privileges and benefits they acquired through the apartheid system of racial discrimination, while arguing that it would be fair to continue punishing those who could not acquire the same skills, benefits and privileges because they were subjected to racial discrimination and oppression by some of the very people who studied at Stellenbosch University.

This stance is both immoral and, it must be said, in the South African context utter legal nonsense.

The opponents of integration (using the language of non-racialism and “cultural rights” to fight for the retention of their continued racial privilege) argue that a revised draft policy of the University aimed at improving the diversity profile of University residences “discriminates unfairly on the basis of one or more factors, including but not limited to race, ethnic or social origin, colour, age, culture and/or language” because it amounts to the “imposition of quotas based on race and/or language” and is “in conflict with the right of people who belong to specific language and cultural communities to use that language and culture”. They are hoping that an extraordinary meeting of Stellenbosch graduates will vote against this policy to place political pressure on management to drop the integration scheme.

The draft policy states that “in the first round” when first-year students are placed in University residences, the applicants will be placed in residences “on the basis of academic merit”. To achieve the diversity profile targets for residences (set by management every year), five “diversity factors” will be taken into account:

(1) South African citizen or international student; (2) language preference (Afrikaans, English or Other); (3) ethnicity (Coloured, Black, Indian or White); (4) first- or non-first-generation student; and (5) economic class (for students who need financial support in the form of bursaries and who qualify for such support on the basis of a means test).

A previous version of the policy stated that the ideal racial breakdown of residences should be 35 per cent “brown”, 20 per cent “black”, 40 per cent “white”, 5 per cent “indian”. It also gave a language breakdown as 45 per cent Afrikaans, 40 per cent English and 15 per cent other.

Of course, there is nothing in the Constitution (or in the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, which will apply in this case) that prohibits an institution from imposing quotas on the basis of race or language in order to address the effects of past and on-going discrimination and to achieve integration. The Employment Equity Act does prohibit the implementation of quotas but that Act would not be applicable to a scheme addressing the integration of University residences. A reference to quotas is therefore at best uninformed and at worst dishonest.

In the case of Minister of Finance v Van Heerden the Constitutional Court provided guidance about how to evaluate the lawfulness of redress measures. In that case the court affirmed that courts “must be reluctant to interfere with [remedial] measures, and [must] exercise due restraint when tempted to interpose themselves as arbiters as to whether the measure could have been proceeded with in a better or less onerous way”. The Court also affirmed that remedial measures will necessarily sometimes negatively affect excluded groups (like “white” South Africans) who are currently enjoying the benefits of past unfair discrimination and that this would not be decisive when considering whether the measures are legally valid or not.

Of course, it is not only those “whites” who grew up during the apartheid years that continue to benefit from apartheid vis-à-vis black South Africans. Almost all if not all of the children and grandchildren of apartheid beneficiaries are still benefiting from apartheid because they enjoy a certain standard of education, a social status and other benefits derived from the unearned economic privileges of their parents and grandparents and because of their “white” skins that still largely shield them from the daily racism experienced by many black South Africans. After all, there are few white teenagers who dress up in their best clothes when they go to the Waterfront or Sandton City to protect themselves from the racial prejudices of shop assistants or security personnel who might otherwise assume that they are shoplifters or vagabonds.

It is also wrong to assume that a “white” person who did not flourish during apartheid did not benefit from the system. As the system shielded all “white” people from having to compete against the majority of South Africans for educational opportunities, jobs and other social benefits, even “white” South Africans who did not become rich during apartheid still benefited from the system because they never had to compete fairly with the 40 million other South Africans for educational en employment opportunities.

Nevertheless, it must be conceded that not all redress measures will be legally valid. In the Van Heerden case Moseneke stated that “a measure should not constitute an abuse of power or impose such substantial and undue harm on those excluded from its benefits that our long-term constitutional goal would be threatened.” In a concurring judgment Sachs explained this approach as follows:

[I]f the measure at issue is manifestly overbalanced in ignoring or trampling on the interests of members of the advantaged section of the community, and gratuitously and flagrantly imposes disproportionate burdens on them, the courts have a duty to interfere. Given our historical circumstances and the massive inequalities that plague our society, the balance when determining whether a measure promotes equality is fair will be heavily weighted in favour of opening up opportunities for the disadvantaged. … Yet some degree of proportionality, based on the particular context and circumstances of each case, can never be ruled out.

The requirement that there should be a degree of proportionality between the measures and the effect of the measures on the excluded group must not be confused with a requirement of a blanket ban on redress measures. Only in extreme cases will redress measures be found to be unlawful. For example, a quota system will place an undue burden on “white” Afrikaners and will impose flagrantly disproportionate burdens on them if it completely ignored the so called “merit” (as we know, “merit” is a deeply contested term in a diverse society) of the “white” applicants or if it made it impossible for any of them to access the benefit that forms the target of the corrective measures. So, if the University of Stellenbosch had implemented a redress policy that disbarred any “white” Afrikaans students from admission to a University residence, its policy would constitute unfair discrimination. But this is not what the University is proposing here.

The Constitution does not allow those who continue to benefit from past unfair racial discrimination to insist on the retention of the status quo. Neither does it protect “white” Afrikaners from having to integrate socially with a critical mass of people from other races and language groups while dishonestly pretending that they are merely upholding the values of non-racialism. You might not like this incontrovertible fact. But you cannot pretend that the Constitution or the law is on your side. It is not. Those who hold otherwise are not being honest.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are gonna be angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    o_O

  • Gwebecimele

    Very Brave indeed!!!
    Wait to be dragged like a taxi driver at the back of a police van.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Zoo Keeper

    Prof

    As I understood the matter, the students are complaining about the fact of quotas, and are not against integration.

    Just because they don’t like quotas, does not mean they are against integration per se.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “In other words, for many decades Stellenbosch University implemented race based affirmative action policies to benefit “white” Afrikaners, many of whom unfairly gained access to an excellent University education at the expense of members of other races.”

    Well, that is note entirely true. But if one repeats a half-truth often enough.

    “In 1959 the National Party passed the Extension of University Education Act No. 45 which extended the apartheid principles being applied to the rest of society to higher education as well. This Act decreed that black, Coloured and Indian students would only be allowed to study at the formerly open universities with a permit from the relevant minister. Separate universities would be established for Coloureds and Indians and the different black ethnic groups.

    By 1970 two new universities had been established for black South Africans (Zululand and the North), one for Coloureds (Western Cape) and one for Indians (Durban-Westville.) Another two universities had been established for whites: Port Elizabeth and Rand Afrikaans Universiteit. In Modernising Racial Domination (1971), Heribert Adam commented: “With regard to educational opportunities, the five non-white universities have on the whole been successful in terms of the Apartheid programs, despite the limitations placed on them as separate institutions under paternalistic Afrikaner guidance. Their facilities are frequently better and the student teacher ratios much lower than in the white universities, now as well as previously when they were ‘open’.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=275355&sn=Detail

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    So by 1971 – there were at least 5 “non-white” Universities, which means that under Apartheid logic Black people with the academic potential had full access to HE. This will of course not be the case for Whites/Coloured/Indians if racial quotas are applied in future to redress these “demographic imbalances”. It would mean that significant amount of Whites, Coloureds and Indians access to HE will not be limited by their merit and academic potential but by the colour of their skin.

  • Gwebecimele

    OB is right

    The poor have full access to Investec banking products, just a matter of choice.

    “So by 1971 – there were at least 5 “non-white” Universities, which means that under Apartheid logic Black people with the academic potential had full access to HE”

  • Not a News24 commenter (I hope)

    Hi Pierre

    Thanks for the super blog and regular insightful posts. I love reading them. I’m not a lawyer so I can’t comment on the strength of your legal arguments (which in this post sound ostensibly very solid and rational, as usual).

    I do want to address some other points which emerge quite strongly in this post. I consider myself to be socially “very left”, and frankly even the dressed-up draft Stellenbosch residence admissions policy makes me queasy. I am interested in the gist of some of your other claims which are gestured at in the extracts below:

    (1) …some (but not all) “white” South Africans (who all continue to benefit from the effects of past unfair racial discrimination) would try to protect their unearned privileges.

    (2) Almost all if not all of the children and grandchildren of apartheid beneficiaries are still benefiting from apartheid because they enjoy a certain standard of education, a social status and other benefits derived from the unearned economic privileges of their parents and grandparents and because of their “white” skins that still largely shield them from the daily racism experienced by many black South Africans.

    (3) …even “white” South Africans who did not become rich during apartheid still benefited from the system because they never had to compete fairly with the 40 million other South Africans for educational en employment opportunities.

    Let’s put aside for a second the fact that I agree with the moral judgment you make about the policy in question. In my view it is plain wrong. Redress measures are both necessary and desirable.

    The idea in the claims seems to be that if you (a) live in South Africa today and (b) are white and the product of white parents who also lived in South Africa (before, during or subsequent to apartheid), then (c) the privileges you may experience (things, status, services, etc) are necessarily unearned. There is also an implicit conclusion along the lines of (d) such white people have a duty restore their unearned privileges.

    It is seen as unfashionable, backward and symptomatic of middle class (necessarily white) neurosis (“OMG, I have to hand over *MY stuff* to *THEM*?!) to even question these claims, but I have to say I wonder.

    It is trite that the proportion of white people in South Africa who live comfortable lives is greater than in other races. Conquest, colonialism, and apartheid are some of the factors responsible. Please forgive my uninformedness/ignorance/inescapable whiteliness, but I am genuinely interested in understanding this.

    In making these sweeping judgments of different groups, where should the line be drawn?

    People from ‘other’ groups have repeatedly and regularly made life unpleasant for others, and profited from that, since the beginning of people. The history of white people in South Africa would seem to fit that template.

    If there were another group of ‘others’, who came from outside or spoke a different language, who did something equally reprehensible to a group of people in South Africa, is their wrong equivalently bad? Should the same consequences flow?

    Maybe closeness in time is the distinguishing feature of the white South African story. Maybe our concept of ownership is utterly bizarre and we need to completely shift our paradigm when we think of restoring “unearned privileges”. Maybe the best way to do this is do give generously of our time and efforts to noble causes. Maybe there should be a compulsory “white tax” like some have suggested. Maybe it should be voluntary (!). Maybe there should be a BEE-recipient tax for some other unearned privileges. I’m being facetious, but I cannot really articulate it any other way.

    I guess my main point is: how should white people lead moral lives here? Can we? *Should* we leave after paying money over to the government? Guidance, please, I’ve yet to read nothing convincing. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places.

  • Old Red

    Spot the Difference!

    It is understandable (if not ethically acceptable) that some (but not all) “white” South Africans (who all continue to benefit from the effects of past unfair racial discrimination) would try to protect their unearned privileges by fighting to retain the status quo.

    It is understandable (if not ethically acceptable) that some (but not all) “black” South Africans (who all continue to benefit from the effects of present unfair racial discrimination) would try to protect their unearned privileges by fighting to retain the status quo.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Not a commentator etc.

    “how should white people lead moral lives here?”

    Fortunately, Mr JM Coetzee has written an instruction manual for moral WHITISTS, in a little book called ‘Disgrace.’ Ms Vice and Ms Schutte have also offered valuable advice.

    Manifestly, you are in the grip of WHITIST ideology. If not, you would know that to be against [proportionate] affirmative action is ipso facto RACIST!

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Like Bantu education, you mean?

    “Almost all if not all of the children and grandchildren of apartheid beneficiaries are still benefiting from apartheid because they enjoy a certain standard of education”

  • Jeremy Dugg

    Ya, what should white people do? Lots of noise, very little talk on possible solutions

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Jeremy Dugg
    March 11, 2013 at 21:34 pm

    “Ya, what should white people do?”

    According to Biko – nothing.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Thabo Mbeki, amongst many other notable African leaders – another product of Ford Hare/Rhodes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Fort_Hare

  • Johan

    What a long, boring history lesson by Pierre de Vos. We should be working to find solutions for our future and stop dwelling on the past.

    You forget, Pierre, that institutions like universities should serve the community. So the Stellenbosch University should be taking up students from the area. Stellenbosch is still mainly an Afrikaans town, mostly represented by those with the wrong colour skin.

    Furthermore, our current Government is failing spectacularly in educating the masses… let’s try and keep at least one university up to standard by enrolling educated people – people who benefited from the past or not. The purpose of an university is to educate people even further, not to rectify what governments did wrong in the past (or recently).

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Johan

    “let’s try and keep at least one university up to standard by enrolling educated people”

    Johan, remember that Mr Zuma, having only a standard 3, is not, by WHITISH standards, very “educated”. Yet look how far he has got!

    With respect, your remark ubderscores Pierre’s insight that so-called “MERIT” is always a contested concept in South Africa. It reminds me too of Ramphele’s notion of maintaining so-called “EXCELLENCE” at UCT, this being, we all know, a code word for WHITISM!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    You need to understand that the likes of Pierre De Vos BENEFITED, perhaps more than any body else from Apartheid.

    And them professional White Liberals continue to benefit most amongst the Whites.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are gonna be angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 11, 2013 at 23:38 pm

    Dworky,

    “It reminds me too of Ramphele’s notion of maintaining so-called “EXCELLENCE” at UCT”

    Rampele is indeed a beacon of EXCELLENCE herself.

    Just today I was impressed when I learned of the large crowd that gathered at her house to celebrate the birth of Agang.

    A hundred people, it was reported – ain’t that something eh?

    Sort of like the crowd (also of 100) which gathered to cheer Brett on in the center of town when he struck ‘seven with on blow”

    p.s. Apparently Ms Dr Mampele also took to dancing with the crowd – just like you-know-who!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 11, 2013 at 23:38 pm

    Exactly MFD. “Merit” is a fucking dirty dirty word – especially in judging an African government.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozone-Bleatist

    While I agree, as always, with you, I must admonish you for using the term MERIT in the way you did. The correct usage is always “so-called” MERIT.

    Thanks.

  • Johan

    @ Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    Having only St 3 is not educated by any standard… all of us (and I mean all the different racial colours we have all over the world) strive to be educated to the highest level. We know who voted Zuma into his position and we also know how they regret it!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Johan:

    Maggs and I put our considerable weight behind Professor Zuma. And I can tell you this: in the same circumstances, we would do it again!

    Thanks.

  • Alibama

    Without even bothering to read to rest of this garbage, I’ll analyse just ONE
    clause:–
    }} ..aimed at benefitting “white” Afrikaners and punishing and
    disadvantaging “black” people.{{
    ====
    In ENGLISH “aim” implies an INTENTION.
    Intentions imply motivations.
    What would the MOTIVATION be to “PUNISH black people”.
    If I close the public-toilet door to keep you out while I occupy it,
    is my AIM to punish you.
    ===
    And of course: it’s legally untenable to attempt to stop the racial integration
    of residences at Maties; other than by emmigrating, which will continue.
    So should I waste my time reading the rest of the argument?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za ozoneblue

    @Johan

    Do you know that even Blade Nzimande and William (the Baboon) Makgoba were educated in universities build especially for Black people by apartheid? Did you know that apartheid build more universities including universities for Black people than any other African government. And did you know that even as we speak some of these South African universities build by apartheid are still rated 1/2/3/4 in Africa?

    Do you think it is moral, ethical or even fair for the ANC government to now willfully exclude Whites, Indians and Coloureds from HE because of the colour of their skin? That such a regime of systematic future racial exclusion is in fact not worse than apartheid and morally reprehensible.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    We’ve been through this again and again and again.

    Ozoneblue says:
    March 11, 2013 at 23:49 pm
    “You need to understand that the likes of Pierre De Vos BENEFITED, perhaps more than any body else from Apartheid.

    And them professional White Liberals continue to benefit”

    Perhaps OBS is not so far of the mark. Perhaps Pierrot has an eye on his future. Perhaps he is trying to secure the old turf. I find the social engineering he describes above very old South African. That and his analysis is permeated with the theme ‘Jy gaan nie vir my ore aansit nie!’. Very patriarchal. Father knows best.

    It is more gatekeeping, pure and simple.

    ‘They’re going to decide who goes where. ‘They’. The people who know best. But do they know their elbows from their assholes?

    I say they know SFA. I say they have not even begun to engage with the legislative framework which is supposed to regulate education in the NSA. The Constitution. The Skills Act. Competency testing. The NQF.

    Mostly what they are doing is busiwork. Wanking. Because they have done nothing to bring the rights in S29 (1) (a) and (b) closer to the people.
    “(1) Everyone has the right -

    (a) to a basic education, including adult basic education; and
    (b) to further education,

    For a small person. Standing in front of a couple of hundred really bright people in a lecture-hall and being able to bend them to your will is a rush, man!

    Who would want to give that up?

    So they don’t need to. As long as they get to play with the definition of ‘everyone’.

    section 29 of the Constitution:

    “(1) Everyone has the right -

    (a) to a basic education, including adult basic education; and
    (b) to further education, which the state, through reasonable measures, must make progressively available and accessible.

    (2) Everyone has the right to receive education in the official language or languages of their choice in public educational institutions where that education is reasonably practicable. In order to ensure the effective access to, and implementation of, this right, the state must consider all reasonable educational alternatives, including single medium institutions, taking into account -

    (a) equity;
    (b) practicability; and
    (c) the need to redress the results of past racially discriminatory laws and practice.

    (3) Everyone has the right to establish and maintain, at their own expense independent educational institutions that -

    (a) do not discriminate on the basis of race;
    (b) are registered with the state; and
    (c) maintain standards that are not inferior to standards at comparable public educational institutions.

    (4) Subsection (3) does not preclude state ubsidies for independent educational institutions.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are gonna be angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Johan
    March 12, 2013 at 5:22 am

    Well noted Johan,

    “We know who voted Zuma into his position and we also know how they regret it!”

    At the post-Mangaung REGRET-ELECTING-ZUMA gala dinner, all 3999 delegates expressed deep regret.

    Speaker after speaker noted with sadness their deepest regret.

    Nobody who voted for Professor Zuma was elated.

    Nobody except me and Dworky that is – in the same circumstances we will support Reverend Pastor Doctor Professor Zuma again!

    WDYSTT?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Implicit in the Professor’s piece is the central problem of the continuation of the policy of racial profiling.

    When does it end? According to the professor, even grandchildren are still benefiting. How exactly we don’t know because it is simply rubbish. What one’s grandfather did is irrelevant. What if he was a whiskey soak and ruined his life? Does a white still “benefit” from his ruin?

    Racism experienced daily by blacks? What about whites being told they are second-class citizens and must give up their jobs, education, everything, basically forever? Do whites not experience racism on a daily basis too – or does it simply not count?

    You see, the problem with all this wonderful sounding “redress” is in the detail.

    What is “redress” exactly? Is it free housing – done. Is it easy employment on the state – done. Is it massive social grants – done.

    What else then? Explain.

    The next piece is when does it end?

    According to the professor grandchildren and I assume even great-grand children are still “benefiting”. So white people must be in a permanent state of second-class citizenry not so?

    If that is the case then the discrimination is unfair because it is a permanent state of affairs.

    There is no concept of what redress is, so no-one knows where the goalposts should even be. And because we don’t know this, we have no way of ever ending racial discrimination in this country.

    C’mon Prof, are you man enough to take this one on again, or are you still reeling from the last bruising I gave you?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 8:53 am

    “Perhaps Pierrot has an eye on his future. Perhaps he is trying to secure the old turf. I find the social engineering he describes above very old South African.”

    That is correct Bret. But you know this has happened before.

    “The takeover of the college in 1959-60 by the National Party government put an end to these achievements. Fort Hare was transformed into an ethnic college for Xhosa speakers. Outspoken staff members were expelled and a new administration, conspicuously loyal to the government and intent on imposing its world-view, was installed.”

    And note how easily basic principles of human dignity and academic freedom that we all believed were self-evident have summarily been abandoned.

    “Although representing something of a practical improvement on the existing system UCT, Rhodes, Wits and Natal all objected to this “quota clause” on principle. The Vice Chancellor of Wits, Daniel du Plessis, stated “The fundamental issue is that the Witwatersrand University holds that race, colour, religion and gender are not academic criteria, and that no non-academic criteria should intrude into the selection process of an academic institution. This is basic to our philosophy and policy.””

    “The Vice Chancellor of UCT, Stuart Saunders, stated that the reason the four universities “find the Bill totally unacceptable” reflects the fact “that these universities have, for more than a quarter-century, actively rejected racial criteria for admission to university.” He also claimed that the legislation was “imposing upon the university itself the distasteful and objectionable task of rejecting students on racial grounds because of a quota imposed upon it”; and argued that, “race classification is an objectionable and irrelevant consideration whether it be applied through permits or quotas.””

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=235701&sn=Marketingweb+detail

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Wat is daai ding wat ou tannies doen waar hulle so bietjie verf maar meestal materiaal en teels en sulke goete sny en dit dan plak om ‘n prentjie te maak?

    Is dit ‘applique’?

  • Johan

    decoupage

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneguy

    “Did you know that apartheid build more universities including universities for Black people than any other African government”

    I must say I did not know this. Perhaps APARTHEID was not such a bad thing after all!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 10:24 am

    You would be very much surprised Bret that the very same former UCT Vice Chancellor of the University of Cape Town, Stuart Saunders who opposed racism in HE as well as racial quotas based on principle is now also a trustee of the Claude Leon foundation. And he is very quiet now.

  • John

    Just as a matter of interest, loosely connected to the post: In the past the government of the day instituted unjust, unfair discriminatory actions to benefit the white minority. Today however, the government is attempting to address the disparity created by those events, by shifting the balance of privilege to the previously disadvantaged community. This includes both the opportunity and ability to uplift yourself, as well as actual help in uplifting yourself (access to education and opportunity as well as active intervention on behalf of the state). Very few people disagree with this aim.

    A society, by its very nature, can be seen as a network of dependencies between the individuals that make up that society. We are all dependant to one degree or another on each other in SA, for one or the other thing, no matter the colour of our skin. What we are finding though, is that the government of today is making use of the exact same tool to address the issue than the government of the past used to create the issue. Have we not seen that lifting up one group of society at the expense of another causes only harm in the long run? Has our immediate history not shown this to us so clearly? I am arguing that instead of lifting up one part of society at the expense of another, we should be attempting to uplift all parts of society together, without taking from the one to give to the other (obviously easier said than done). If we are all equal (which we say we are) then no one should feel he or she deserves privilege or access to ways to uplift themselves, at the expense of another.

    We forget we are all in this together, that one man’s fortune is not built without the other. We forget that two wrongs don’t make a right. We think redistributing privilege and opportunity is creating equality, while if it is done at the expense of another, it equates to only moving the problem. Such actions will only lead to more tension and discrimination. It is not a solution. We should be trying to remove the barriers we face in education (lack of access to education, admission quotas and the like) instead of placing them there. We should stop arguing about what the quota should be and instead discuss how we are going to get everyone to benefit from the available institutions.

  • Kay-Gee

    I hope i understood the above conversation properly in that I understand that the university seeks to apply a policy that entails unequal racial ratio’s of students owing to a long-standing history and culture of white supremacy in Stellenbosch University.

    Very simply put, this policy is a foolish notion aimed at securing a centralised haven for those who will be afforded the majority in terms of numbers in the university.

    As a liberal, I firmly believe that merit is the only rational determining factor for almost anything, more importantly; the education system and the availablity or access thereof. Racial thoughts other than those that seek to eqaulise numbers per race are, in my view, unconstitutional.

    This whole idea of uneven race quotas is in the opinion of this second year Law student, a direct contravention of section 1(b) of the Constitution which deals with non-racialism and non-sexism as founding values of this democratic state; and section 8(2)-(3) which deals with the application of the Bill of Rights to juristic persons.

    As a public juristic person, the University of Stellenbosch should undertake to promote positive democratic values in society as a whole, though they may be no real obligation to do so…It’s within the spirit of a true democratic state.

    Section (9) of the Constitution further elucidates on what the right to equality entails; a section in which sub sections(3)-(4) are most important to note in this regard, as they provide the grounds on which violation of the freedom of equality may not be infringed; and further, that:

    “NO PERSON [juristic or natural], MAY UNFAIRLY DISCRIMINATE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY AGAINST ANYONE ON ONE OR MORE GROUNDS IN TERMS OF SUBSECTION(3)” .

    But what are they trying to say about the status quo of the country wit this gutsy move? What they are saying with this formal segregation of theirs is that history is in training to repeat itself… Why is there no widespread outrage about this grave injustice? How dare they even think of such racially preservist policies at this day and age? I am of the opinion that brains have no race and therefore, there is no reason as to why such unequal policy should be allowed to exist… GLOBALLY…

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Daar’s hy! Dankie, Johan.

    Dit is wat daai klomp doen. Rasse-decoupage.

  • Gwebecimele

    Thank you Ganesh.
    Will these kids make it to Maties????????????????
    According to OB, they have full access.

    At Samson Senior Primary School in Libode District, we found that the local community had abandoned the dilapidated mud buildings that were perched on a hilltop far away from the children’s homes. Instead, the school had taken up residence in community-built church buildings and unused rondavels in the village, where there was precious little lighting and few desks or chairs. If it rained, the school would close. This was preferable, said the parents of the learners, to sending their children on a daily expedition to the old school building where they might be injured or raped on the way, or to a school in another village where they would be bullied as outsiders.

    At Gwebityala Senior Secondary School, Dutywa District, the LRC found classrooms so completely bulging at the seams with learners that there was no space for desks. In the Grade 12 classroom, there were 72 learners. In Grade 11, there were 94. The Grade 10 classroom housed a breathtaking 167 learners. In addition, although the school was supposed to have been allocated ten educators, there were only nine present, six of whom held temporary posts. None of the temporary educators had received a salary this year.

    The LRC found similar problems at Gengqe Senior Secondary School in Mthatha District, which had seen the number of teachers allocated to it drop from 16 in 2012 to eight this year, a reduction which forced the remaining teachers to stop offering certain subjects and to teach for up to 10 periods a day instead of the standard seven periods. As for the provision of basic furniture, the principal informed us that he had had to break up a fight between four girls over a desk minutes before we arrived. Naturally, the impact of these factors was reflected in the matric pass rates that had plummeted from 82% in 2010 to 34% in 2012.

    In nearly all the schools we visited, new toilets were desperately needed to replace the rudimentary latrines that were so filthy and repulsive that the students would rather relieve themselves in the bushes. In addition, the vast majority of the schools we encountered had not been informed about a furniture audit and verification exercise that the EC Department of Basic Education was supposed to have completed by February 28, 2013. This was despite the fact that the Department was ordered by the Mthatha High Court in November 2012 to publish and distribute a circular to all schools in the province informing them of the audit by 16 January 2013.

    It is difficult to imagine the damage that has been and continues to be done to these learners as a result of these conditions. A simultaneous algebraic equation is already a rather intimidating and unsympathetic thing, but how much harder must it be to solve, if your “desk” consists of a couple of planks scattered promiscuously across some metal tubing? Or if you have a crate for a chair? Leave aside for the moment these and other harms the children will comprehend only in the future. What must it be like – in the here and now – for a young female learner to have to search out a spot in the long grass, suitably far away from teenage boys, every time she needs to go to the bathroom?

    Although the words have been much cheapened by flabby and careless overuse, this is, at bottom, about human dignity. The LRC is, for its part, doing its best to ensure respect for the learners’ dignity by bringing more litigation, demanding that all schools are on publicly available lists which are then are publicised for public scrutiny, and calling for emergency interim measures such as prefabricated classrooms and toilets while permanent structures are being built. However, we recognize that litigation is not and cannot provide a panacaea for all the province’s ills – government by lawsuit is not a sustainable solution.

    W.B. Yeats once described a school inspection he made as an elderly Irish senator in a celebrated poem entitled “Among School Children”. In the poem, Yeats wondered if his mother, seeing her son “with sixty or more winters” on his head, would consider his life and accomplishments “a compensation for the pang of his birth, or the uncertainty of his setting forth.” Yeats ended the poem with a reflection on how the success of his life – his dignity – was inextricably linked with the experiences and frustrations of his youth:

    “O body swayed to music, O brightening glance

    How can we know the dancer from the dance?”

    One cannot help but wonder about the “uncertainties of setting forth” that will greet the lovely and impeccably well-spoken children we met, and whether the education they are currently receiving is doing anything to prepare them to meet those challenges. We have a duty to those children to equip them to make of their lives as brilliant a dance as can possibly be. In that respect, the measures taken so far by the provincial government have been an abject failure. DM

    * Aravind Ganesh is a Volunteer Lawyer at the Legal Resources Center, Grahamstown

  • Gwebecimele

    Marikana and Goldfields employees are well represented by the leaders.
    If Ramphele can be forced who else can resist???

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/business/mining/2013/03/12/state-gave-gold-fields-no-choice-on-bee-says-ramphele

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    March 12, 2013 at 11:08 am

    “Thank you Ganesh.
    Will these kids make it to Maties????????????????
    According to OB, they have full access.”

    Never said that. but this is what people like you and PdV do all the time, the moment we question the race basis for quotas immediately you jump up to appeal to the emotive issue of class. But we now by now, after 20 years of race-based AA and BEE that there are many more Black middle/upper class people in South Africa than there are white so you would have to reinvent some other diversionary tactic.

    What you advocate (stripped of the class connection) has no moral fundamentals, it is pure reverse racism and that is all it is. It is even worse than apartheid because as I indicated Blacks who really wanted to study or take control of their own education could do so at a couple of universities, universities like Ford Hare in “independent” homelands like the Ciskei. The fact that they didn’t want to do so – for whatever reason is neither here nor there. If you had the potential and wanted to take control of your own future you could work your way out. There are many, many people who went through Ford Hare, many of them become very successful/wealthy and/or even leaders of other African nations – so this propaganda about how apartheid “excluded all Black people from a higher education” is absolute nonsense and has no basis in fact. And now of course white people deserve to be excluded from HE combined for another 50 to 300 years or so with this bizarre doctrine of transgenerational “guilt-by-association” based on the former myth?

    All the above needs to be acknowledged and clearly understood by all concerned before we can proceed.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Correction.

    “But we know by now, after 20 years of race-based AA and BEE that there are many more Black middle/upper class people in South Africa than there are white…”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Kay G

    “As a liberal, I firmly believe that merit is the only rational determining factor for anything”

    With respect, you give the game away with these words. The characteristic illusion of LIBERALISM is precisely the belief that there exists a neutral metric we call “merit.” But there is not. The notion of merit has built into it presuppositions about what capacities, talents and abilities are worthy of being rewarded. And that in turn is dependent upon what kind of society we think is most conducive to human flourishing. I, for one, do not believe that the individualist free market society aspired to by LIBERALS represents an ideal worth striving for.

    Thanks a lot.

  • Jama ka Sijadu

    “White’ Afrikaaners in Cape Town, trying to perpetuate Apartheid.
    What A Huge Surprise…

  • Mike

    @MDF – Correct and that merit Kay G refers to led to the discovery of the worlds biggest gold deposits while blacks in this country were under the illusion that cattle were a store of wealth.
    Face facts my commie friend and that is the merit principles that Kay G relates to have led to major economic advancement that your communist dead beats are still trying to emulate.
    And dont hold up China to me because all of there advancement has been achieved by way of intelectual property theft.

  • Mike

    @PDV – Not to long ago the Cadres in the SABC ran a programme in which they suggested that it was Chris Barnards garden boy that was actually the brains behind the worlds first heart transplant.
    This is where the Stellenbosch University quota’s are going and that is the distruction of this countries intelectual talent.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 13:29 pm

    “Face facts my commie friend and that is the merit principles that Kay G relates to have led to major economic advancement that your communist dead beats are still trying to emulate.”

    Well then you clearly don’t understand either Communism or the Freedom Charter.

    “Education shall be free, compulsory, universal and equal for all children; Higher education and technical training shall be opened to all by means of state allowances and scholarships awarded *on the basis of merit*;”

    http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=72

  • Mike

    @PDV – What really amazes me is how ignorant you actually are about apartheid and the fact that english speaking white people were themselves subjected to this kind of AA crap that you espouse all white benefitted by.
    This country has failed miserably in the last 17 years and it will continue to fail unless individuals given freedon to go about there business.

  • Mike

    @ Ozone Blue – there is no such thing as a free lunch. The Freedon Charter was written by a bunch of communist jewish tennis players, not Moses and has been held up to be fatally flawed with the examples of East Germany being one of many.
    Try importing the Trabant moter car and lets see how many blacks in this country will swop for their Audi’s and BMW’s
    It always amazes me that these self same jews who wrote the freedom charter would want to install the very same system in South Africathat there parents escaped from.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 13:47 pm

    And it is interesting how white supremacists like yourself can never seem to grasp the irony in your own empty rhetoric because we all know that the Freedom Charter has been all but SHELVED.

    The ANC and their [British]colonial pay masters have an entirely new plan for us now. A plan nobody agreed upon in 1994. A plan that was negotiated in bad faith. Then it was all about “human rights”, “equality” and “nonracialism”, concepts laid out in the Freedom Charter. The only aspect that was watered down to appease the white bourgeoisie was the issue of redistribution of wealth. This was done to serve the interests of both the Black and White elite who are now forcing this new apartheid dogma down our throats. They know it is a racist lie, when PdV writes his usual racist garbage he knows it is all a lie. He himself is the prime product of that lie, his is dependent on that lie – his own “white privilege” can only survive through a systematic denial of history and the public betrayal of his own.

  • sirjay jonson

    So every white child born in SA until kingdom come, is that right, is born with a burden of debt which he or she either admits to with shame or leaves the country.

    In the past two months I’ve had two more (in one case white, one case mixed) grandsons born. Thanks to God this happened in Canada.

    No wonder whites are so pissed at the ANC betrayals. I don’t blame them for a minute. History has been the same everywhere since the dawn of humankind. Every country has had its invaders and oppressors. However, SA excels in primarily one thing as I see it, racial insanity. Yeesh, get a life.

  • Alibama

    Re. higher education: please provide some opinions:–
    Where does UNISA rate?

    How much of junior schooling is aimed at ‘getting Jonny out of the house’ &
    ‘getting kids SOCIALISED’. Eg. did Victorian aristocracy suffer by staying
    at home with the ‘tutor/s’, instead of socialising?

    What’s the effect in Muslim societies, where females can’t ‘socialise’?

    Will increased inet, change the “GOING TO” model into a “learning” model?

    What’s your knowledge/opinion of OLPC?

    DO/can computers make a substantial contribution to education?
    And to SA education?

    How did Zimbabwe have 2 decades of successful education, immediately
    after independence, if SA can’t?

  • Mike

    @Ozone Blue – What was agreed at Codesa was AA Usa style where for an equal qualification the black would get preference. Transformation is not AA it is ethnic cleansing.
    The FREEDOM CHARTER is a piece of crap that has been proven elsewhere in the world to be a fallacy, it is the economic policy akin George Orwell’s Animal Farm.
    Unless there is a major change in this country South Africa is heading towards a Civil War and people like you are falsely under the impression that numbers alone guarantee the outcome.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are gonna be angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 13:29 pm

    Hey Mike,

    “And dont hold up China to me because all of there advancement has been achieved by way of intelectual property theft.”

    And South Africa is what it is because of “property theft” – MUD people (thanks Lisbeth) stole all the property here.

    WDYSTT?

  • Mike

    @Maggs – Thats why the Indians were drawn to this country. Stellenbosch is the wealthist University in the country because of the royalties it receives from the wine producers from the grading of wine.
    But who were the originators of this industry, not Zulus or the Xhosa’s or Tswana’s or the indians for that matter, they were settlers who built and industry that was the foundation of economic development in the western cape some 300 years ago.
    So what did they steal Maggs and why should there ancestors not be entitiled to enter Stellenbosch Universiry without restriction.

  • Mike

    @Maggs – should read decendants not be entitled to enter Stellenbosch University without restriction.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Mike

    “english speaking white people were themselves subjected to this kind of AA crap”

    Mike is right. That is why I am reiterating my demand that descendants of the 1820 settlers be given top jobs in commerce, mining and banking!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 14:32 pm

    “The FREEDOM CHARTER is a piece of crap that has been proven elsewhere in the world to be a fallacy, it is the economic policy akin George Orwell’s Animal Farm.
    Unless there is a major change in this country South Africa is heading towards a Civil War and people like you are falsely under the impression that numbers alone guarantee the outcome.”

    Good to see you and the ANC batting in the same team.

    If you think the world are going to support whites/Afrikaners in a civil world situation you should think again. They will be backing the Black elite, who are the gatekeepers to their capitalist interest in South Africa. The sacrificial pawn here are the “minorities”, ie. Whites, Coloureds and Indians. As long as the ANC can use racial mobilisation to manipulate the vote without changing the economic structure – they will be supported by the international community. That is why Julius Malema was running around singing “kill the boer” after the Lonmin massacre. British capital in calsuion with a fascist Black elite and the scape goat are the “boers”.

    I pointed this dynamic out to Bret with regards to how Genocide Watch selectively choose what kind of issues to report, ignoring [BC] Mngxitama for example but putting pressure on the “Marxist-Lenninist” ANC. It is a load of bullshit, they will support any sort of “genocide” in South Africa as long as it is not part of a socialist inspired revolution that threaten their capitalist interest.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Correction:

    “If you think the world are going to support whites/Afrikaners in a civil war situation …”

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Sirjay, as (I think) a biased but perhaps non-partisan observer who came to this country because he thought he saw his (silly, hippie) dream of a true non-racial society being born?

    Tell us what you think the adversarial conduct of race relations has done to the modus vivendi between black and white in the New South Africa?

  • Andrew

    It would seem that there are two camps at SU. The one group wish to integrate residences racially and the other objects to this, i.e. objects to racial integration.

    What is so bad about racial integration?

    I suspect, that if SU said they wished to integrate on the basis of wealth, we would not have the same kind of opposition.

    I just don’t get it, really, what is so bad about racial integration, really?

  • Maggs Naidu – GOSA is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 14:32 pm

    True Mike,

    “The FREEDOM CHARTER is a piece of crap that has been proven elsewhere in the world to be a fallacy”

    The Freedom Charter was (like OBE) imported from Australia/Canada/USA and other countries after it was proven to be a fallacy since 1437.

    Especially the bit about “there shall be peace and friendship” (Dworky please explain that bit to Mike).

  • Maggs Naidu – GOSA is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 15:47 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “the modus vivendi between black and white in the New South Africa”

    That’s easy.

    Black people had land.

    MUD people stole it.

    Now Black people have very little land.

    Hope it’s clear!

  • Mike

    @Ozone Blue – Then why did Germany support the BOERS.Theystill have a debt to settle with the Brits.Why the resurgence of the ultra right in Europe, because they are tired of the same crap that is being shoved down their throats as is here in SA.
    If you think that the gate keepers to SA wealth are blacks then you seriously underestimate the wealth of the Stellenbosch elite.
    The ANC will self destruct along tribal lines that is already on the cards with Ramaphosa’s appointment.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Mike says:
    March 12, 2013 at 13:47 pm

    On Saturday I bought a cock bred by a German pigeon fancier for R1000. I would have liked to buy the other cock he bred too, but I have to be careful with money since I paid those useless ANC deployee kunts at the City of Johannesburg more than R5000 a month for water for 2 years while they pretended to sort out why I was using so much water when I used to use R17kl a month. (Turns out I’ve been using 17kl all the time but they’re shy about refunds.)

    Anyway, when I got home I googled the oldtimer. He and his wife started delivering sand and stone with their car shortly after the War. Within a couple of years they had 3 trucks, then 4, now they own a multinational transport conglomerate branching out into energy as well.

    Now, what would his ‘opportunity’ have been had he been living in the DDR-to-be part of Germany when the War broke out?

    You see, when I say to OBS and Maggs the coolest dog video I’ve ever seen features Lord vom Gleisdreieick crawling on his elbows and knees on command they can’t really connect the dots. Maybe they think it is a cool trick? Maybe they think he was trained that way to catch West Germans trying to hitch an unauthorised lift under a truck or a train into the DDR?

    Thing is, they can’t really internalise that Lord was selected over generations to be an off the wall border patrol dog who would make sure none of his people got out….

  • Maggs Naidu – GOSA is FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 16:07 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “I would have liked to buy the other cock he bred too, but I have to be careful with money ”

    Try Dmwangi, he’s got one that he no longer needs!

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 15:57 pm

    You making zero sense. As usual. The real wealth in SA are still held by foreign/mostly British interest. Barclays, Lonmin, Absa, etc. That global financial power block has morphed over the last couple of decades or so from being almost exclusively white to being a truly multiracial monopoly capital. That in line with malema and kie harping on about “white monopoly capital” is also another part of the selling out on the ideals of the Freedom Charter. the FC doesn’t talk about the colour of capital, it talks about redistribution of wealth (i.e. monopoly capital) along all South African no matter what their colour, race or ethnicity

  • sirjay jonson

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 15:47 pm

    “Tell us what you think the adversarial conduct of race relations has done to the modus vivendi between black and white in the New South Africa?”

    Its not so much what’s its done, which I think is evident to any clear thinker, but 1) what it continues to do, and 2) what the offered alternative approach hasn’t realized at great disappointment to many, world wide. A disappointment is mildly descriptive.

    Its true, I came here from Canada, a country which has never colonized, and at a certain level of personal sacrifice (no regrets) to offer my skills and abilities in support of the newest Democracy on the globe. Canadians have a proud tendency in this respect regarding Democracy and political freedom. I have now resided in South Africa for 13 years entirely involved voluntarily and at my own expense in community work, and I came not as a hippie, but as a former owner and manager of one of Canada’s leading labour arbitration outlets, retired.

    South Africans deeply involved either as perpetrators or victims in what I see as deliberately orchestrated racial activism, need to step outside this country, travel abroad to open Democracies with an open mind to recognize the madness you are all caught up with here.

    The stress and angst I see so many going through over pigment of skin colour truly amazes me. Even in the states with the south’s bitter racism, apart from the devastating civil war over race, it is minimal compared to South Africa’s reality today. Personally I’m hoping for a miracle, that significant inspiration arises again whereby you slough off the past, regardless of how attached you are to it, and get on with living a present which is there for the asking. It just takes committed self discipline, recognizing and changing the impractical approach of racism as the be all and end all, and saying enough is enough.

    If you doubt this last statement, then ask yourself, just how does South Africa benefit from the current state of racial activism? As long as the past dominates, South Africa will not move forward. Its that simple, as uncomfortable as that truth is.

  • beetle

    How coloured is UWC?
    Is your University still your Alma Mater or has it been overrun by non-paying, demanding, striking and trash throwing ingrates?

    Private schools [like private healthcare, private TV channels- ie stuff that works] offer superior tuition by qualified [non-striking] teachers.
    Private universities will follow. Merit and money will be the admission criteria.

    Where do ANC ministers send their kids? I’d like to know those stats.

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    beetle
    March 12, 2013 at 18:10 pm

    “Private universities will follow. Merit and money will be the admission criteria.”

    I suppose you mean in our global capitalist world money is merit. Not the individual’s talent, passion for a subject, IQ, potential, etc. anything else. But can his parents pay the fees?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    beetle
    March 12, 2013 at 18:10 pm

    “Where do ANC ministers send their kids? I’d like to know those stats.”

    I believe mostly UCT.

  • Kay-Gee

    @ Mikhail

    Duly noted that we have a difference in opinion, I respect that, but on the real now: how far lower do you want this country to sink in the absence of skilled and educated people? Our government machinery lies in the hands of politically elected ministers who, by virtue of political affiliation, are given ministerial office and are in control of the Directors-General; technocrats.

    We have all these institutions that offer education and skills training of all kinds in a semi terminally-ill democratic state. We are on the brink of seeing the country up in arms over repeated gross state maladministration, graft, corruption, abuse of power and fundamental rights, the highly irrational xenophobia, sex-crime and even encroachment of the state’s trias politica by fellow state organs by the very people we nominate to combat this… We are unfortunately defeated by unskilled, incompetent and underhanded or shady characters who we thought were there on OUR behalf. We need to make more educated decisions, and for that, we need to educate our sapplings.

    Forget race or separatist culture… We ALL need a better tomorrow, and education is highly beneficial to any political system. Equalise us all in that respect.

    I’m not advancing the whole of the liberalist ideology here, I simply wish to emphasise that education is the building blocks on which progress is modelled, and this gross injustice in the form of uneven quotas is hampering the potential that education can realise in the youth…

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish, MUD people are angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Kay-Gee
    March 12, 2013 at 23:03 pm

    Hey Kay Gee,

    “this gross injustice in the form of uneven quotas is hampering the potential that education can realise in the youth…”

    By youth, you mean WHITE youth, don’t you?

  • Maggs Naidu – Eish, MUD people are angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    via Na’eem Jeenah

    South African educationist denied entry into Palestine
    Issued by Palestine Solidarity Campaign
    12 March 2013

    Well-known South African educationist and human rights activist, Dr Salim Vally, was today detained, interrogated and denied entry into Palestine by Israeli security forces when he attempted to enter the country from Jordan.
    Dr Vally, director of the Centre for Education Rights and Transformation at the University of Johannesburg, was invited by the German foundation, Friedrich Ebert Stiftung (FES), to deliver a series of lectures in the West Bank focusing on the right to education and curriculum development.
    He left Amman, Jordan, this morning on his way to Palestine but was stopped at the border and detained for five hours by Israeli border security. During this period he was interrogated, body-searched and humiliated before being ejected back to Jordan.
    ‘The most painful thing about the whole episode,’ said Vally, ‘was to witness the manner in which Palestinians returning to their homes – many older than my parents – were mistreated, harassed and humiliated by teenagers young enough to be their grandchildren. Even if I had wanted to, I could not prevent memories of the apartheid days overwhelming me with a vengeance.’
    Salim said arrangements were being for him to deliver his lectures via video-conferencing from Amman over the next few days. ‘The Israelis do not realise that the spirit of Palestinian solidarity cannot be broken, just as the spirit of Palestinian resistance cannot be broken. Whether they deport us or imprison us, we will persevere. Palestinians call it sumud or steadfastness. It has sustained Palestinian resistance for six decades and it will see Palestinians being liberated from occupation, colonialism, apartheid and Zionist racist brutality. As we in South Africa know very well, no matter what obstacles the oppressors place in the way of the oppressed, they will make us more resolute and strengthen our commitment to make Israel a pariah state like apartheid South Africa was, through a campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS).’ Instead of demoralising him, Salim said, the experience only reminded him of infinitely worse plight that many Palestinians have to endure on a daily basis.
    Salim is due to remain in Jordan for the period of his lecture tour, addressing Palestinian audiences from his Jordanian hotel room, and will return home to South Africa next week.
    The Palestine Solidarity Campaign condemns the deportation of Salim Vally but recognises that this simply reminds us of how Israel continually denies Palestinians freedom of movement, the right to education, the right to dignity and the right to return to their homes.
    For more information, contact:
    Dr Salim Vally – salimvally1@gmail.com
    Tania Kassis Saadeh – +972 2 2982013 / 2982959
    Mercia Andrews – 082 368 3429

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – Eish, MUD people are angry, ne! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    March 12, 2013 at 23:11 pm

    “‘The most painful thing about the whole episode,’ said Vally, ‘was to witness the manner in which Palestinians returning to their homes – many older than my parents – were mistreated, harassed and humiliated by teenagers young enough to be their grandchildren. Even if I had wanted to, I could not prevent memories of the apartheid days overwhelming me with a vengeance.’”

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “[Vally was] denied entry into Palestine by Israeli security forces”

    Maggs, I have mentioned several times that it is incorrect and frankly offensive to refer to “Israel.” The proper term is “Illegal Zionist Entity.” (“IZE”).

    Anyway, I think we all understand now that the IZE is worse than APARTHEID. That’s right: WORSE!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 12, 2013 at 23:44 pm

    Dworky,

    FUCK OFF!

    Salim is a friend and a really good human being.

    Neither he nor any other human being should be treated this way!

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    You’re missing the point, Maggs….

    Israel, like Apartheid South Africa, is one of those countries where the border patrol dogs face outward, like a normal watchdog in a normal home, bite strangers trying to get in, not their own people trying to get out….

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Sirjay

    “I came here from Canada, a country which has never colonized …”

    With respect. Sirjay, your entire so-called “country” is based upon the COLONISATION by Europeans of the land of the peoples of the First Nation and the Inuit. That is why I join the demand that English and French settlers go back to England and France, but not without paying compensation to the First Nation for all the stolen bear skins, beaver pelts and maple syrup!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 12, 2013 at 23:58 pm

    Brett,

    Salim was not trying to get into Israel – he was en route to Palestine!

    Vally, renowned in South Africa as an academic, educator and human rights activist, and member of the Palestine Solidarity Committee (PSC), had been invited to give several lectures in the occupied West Bank by German foundation Friedrich Ebert Stiftung, according to a PSC release. …

    Vally was traveling to see Palestinians rather than to visit “Israel,” however no one can visit any part of historic Palestine without passing through the occupation.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Lets not over-analyse, Maggs….

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “Israel, like Apartheid South Africa, is one of those countries where the border patrol dogs face outward”

    Maggs is making a serious point about IZE depredations. Why do you always have to bring your bloody dogs into everything? That aside, did you know that the walls of Rome were patrolled by fierce GUARD DUCKS? They were posted in pairs about every ten metres — one facing OUT, and one facing IN.

    WDYS?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    BTW, Maggs, I suspect that Mike, who complains that the Freedom Charter was imposed by COMMUNIST JEWISH tennis players, might have a few things to say about a whole so-called “state” of JEWS (the IZE), pushing their pushy weight around the Middle East!

    Mike, WDYS about this latest JEWISH outrage?

  • ozoneblue

    Lets not forget that Tel Aviv considered to be the gay holidaying mekka of the world. I m sure we will see a huge international outcry as they demonstrate their solidarity with the Palestinian people. Together with the DA.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Well, you see, Dworky…

    After the collapse of the Berlin Wall dog sport enthusiasts flocked to the DDR to buy up ex border patrol dogs. Really intense. Serious dogs. They could bite. The same thing with Czechoslovakia and their Pozranickistrasse dogs. The Soviet Union might have collapsed but at least its client states still had one commodity their people could survive off. Feeding a dog off your DDR earnings couldn’t have been easy. I remember standing next to a visiting German Shepherd breeder from the DDR and hearing her say to a guy standing next to her of the useless dog on the training field: “Of this one I make soup for the others!”

    The SAP had been trying to breed superior guard dogs for a long time. There was an institute at Roodeplaat dedicated to it. Escom had a dog unit to patrol its installations? The SADF had a batallion of dog handlers. Israel got dogs here. Taiwan got dogs here.

    So it occured to me forget all these smart people (code for sh1ttalkers, see?) with their development indexes and gini coefficients and suchlike.

    It seems to me the world can be divided into countries that people would die to get into and countries that people would die to get out of. Much simpler.

    Want to analyse governance in a country? Political systems?

    Are their border patrol dogs there to keep their own people in? Or envious strangers out?

    Now there is a real successful/failing state index!

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    March 13, 2013 at 0:18 am

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 13, 2013 at 8:18 am

    “It seems to me the world can be divided into countries that people would die to get into and countries that people would die to get out of. Much simpler.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncoFQdBIvU

    What about countries that built concentration camps in other countries where they lock up all the terrorists for ever?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Sirjay

    I liked your comment.

    By the Professor’s rationale, Italians should still be paying penance for the actions of the Romans.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Doesn’t change the fact that the US is the kind of country millions would die to get into, OBS….

    Remember, there were so many wannabe illegal immigrants to South Africa at the height of Apartheid an electric fence had to be put up that would turn people crispier than my beloved Taxi2 soulfire?

    (Of course, the ANC tore that fence down now half of Mozambique is poaching breeding-age rhino in the Kruger…)

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Brett, I must say I find you theory about the ratio of people exiting/entering a country fascinating. Would you say therefore that apartheid was UNCHRISTIAN for the additional reason that the propensity of whites to give food, education, sweets, roads and other goodies to local Blacks also had the effect of inducing blacks in neighbouring states to cross the border so as to get their share of the bounty?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    There is no ‘good enough’ for Christians, Dwork! We always strive to be even better.

    P.s. Did you take note of how many countries with a Christian character need to keep their people ‘in’ with border patrol dogs?

    Progressives, huh? LOL!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 13, 2013 at 8:52 am

    “(Of course, the ANC tore that fence down now half of Mozambique is poaching breeding-age rhino in the Kruger…)”

    But but but Brett. We must tear down all the fences (even imaginary ones as are detected by our White liberals at UCT/Stellenbosch?) if we want to build one nonracial, non-xenophobic United States of Afrika. Also those fences and security alarm systems that keep mags, Max Price, the honourable members of Claude Leon Foundation, Pierre and ANC/Zuma’s family safe and insulated at nite.

    Don’t you think?

  • Michael Osborne

    Monty Python’s expo on evils of Roman colonialism …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

  • Mike

    @MDF – Neither did I complain nor did I say that the Freedom Charter was imposed by Communist Jewish tennis players.
    BTW both them Israelis and the Palestenians deserve each other and I hold no brief for either of them.
    The sooner they both wipe each other the better.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    March 13, 2013 at 9:39 am

    LOL.

    Im sure you must have seen this one.

    Monty Python Communist Quiz sketch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=vZ9myHhpS9s

  • Gwebecimele
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    To get back on topic. I must admit I’m no fan of “forced integration” and quotas. I cannot believe there is no other way to manage that, like appointing senior staff who are pro-transformation and implementing non-discriminatory transparent policies. I mentioned before you are inherently talking supply and demand, allocation of limited resources. Why can’t they just implement a race neutral lottery/raffle on who are allowed into a specific hostel, that should ensure a reasonably balanced allocation with nobody claiming any systemic discrimination or feeling that they are being discriminated against.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Mike

    “Mike
    March 12, 2013 at 13:47 pm”

    Was this not you then?

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Ozoneblue says:
    March 13, 2013 at 11:46 am

    It is hard to believe there are still people around who would not want to share housing with people of other races. That would be really pathetic.

    But I am glad there are still those around who object as a matter of principle to having the silly ‘progressives’ like de Vos ramming their world view down others’ throats.

    But the point is this: If we are still talking about turf-wars for scarce resources how can we pretend to even be paying lipservice to S29 (1) (a) and (b) of the Constitution?

    “(1) Everyone has the right -

    (a) to a basic education, including adult basic education; and
    (b) to further education”

    Who do you think is meant by ‘E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E’?

    I am glad even a silly socialist can acknowledge the inevitability of the laws of “supply and demand”….

    Do you not think ‘E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E’ implies supply should exceed demand?

    Didn’t your silly Cde Blade announce a new University or 2? (After the ANC did SFA about the issue for 18 years?)

    Do you think Cde Blade’s plans are as far along to implementation as Afriforum/Solidariteit?

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 13, 2013 at 9:25 am

    Hey Brett,

    “There is no ‘good enough’ for Christians, Dwork!”

    So why did god make WHITE people from MUD????

    p.s. Your honest admission is refreshing!

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs


    So why did god make WHITE people from MUD????”

    Since you seem to have a hotline to god, care to tell us what BLACK people were made of? Or, for that matter, INDIAN people? How about COLOURED people?

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    March 13, 2013 at 15:56 pm

    Lisbeth,

    Clearly you have not yet heard of my world acclaimed theory combining the best of evolution and creationism!

    The short version is – billions of years>big bang>microscopic life>etc, etc>human beings (black people, women, disabled, gays, …>peace and friendship!

    4000 years BC>god self creates>bored god> god discovers MUD> god still bored> creates WHITE man (looks like a cross between Brett and OB – i.e. an ugly F$#%er)> pollution, corruption, halitosis, beer, guns, rugby, porn movies, obesity> and here we are today, no more peace and friendship!

    I hope it’s clear now!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Someone had to do something about all the biomass you damn Indians were putting down the Ganges!

    I’m scared a photoelctronmicroscope and DNA will show I’m 3/4 long-dead Indian….

    Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    March 13, 2013 at 15:14 pm

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 13, 2013 at 20:42 pm

    Hey Brett,

    “Someone had to do something about all the biomass you damn Indians were putting down the Ganges!”

    You are so racist. Stop insulting Indian people.

    I don’t offend racist White people (or a Kenyan fellow), I’m such a nice, kind, caring, decent person. Maybe I should be nominated for the Nobel Prize for harmony? Peace and friendship?

    p.s. have you heard that “Your Mama is so fat …” insults have now been replaced by “your Mama is so WHITE …” insults?

    WDYSTT?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Don’t you believe in recycling?

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 14, 2013 at 9:38 am

    Ok Brett – let’s try that

    “Don’t you believe in recycling?”

    Yo Mama is so WHITE, you should be recycled!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Sjoe! That is a deap-seated prejudice.

    You just don’t want to be recycled into a white person.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    March 14, 2013 at 10:01 am

    Brett

    “You just don’t want to be recycled into a white person.”

    I cordially decline your invitation – I don’t want to benefit from apartheid.

    p.s. Yo Mama so WHITE that Dr Vice will blush!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    Be careful of karma.

    Taking on the whites so much may lead to you to being reincarnated as as one – maybe a closet gay WASP businessman in a difficult marriage for social convenience, or a Calvinist dominee with a taste for the underage help… or MDF?

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Zoo Keeper
    March 14, 2013 at 11:25 am

    LOL ZooKy,

    When I speak of WHITEs, I usually mean Brett and OB with a hint of Dmwangi.

    Otherwise White people are pretty much like everyone else (i.e. full of kak).

  • Zoo Keeper

    Maggs

    You mean you’re talking about Coloureds after all?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, are you as excited as I am by the election of a TRANSFORMED Holy Father, who, by adopting the name Francis (from St Francis of Assisi), has clearly signalled his deep HUMILITY?

    Thanks.

  • Mike

    @MDF – The pope is a direct decendant of italian immigrants.

  • Paul Kearney

    I’m guessing PdV never even made the short list when he applied at Univ of Stell. Lekker bitterbek ne.

    Don’t let principal stand in your way.

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    March 14, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    Dworky,

    It is sooooooooo exciting to have a HOMOPHOBE as a leader of so many people.

    It’s good news indeed!

  • Maggs Naidu – MUD people are FUBAR! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    March 14, 2013 at 13:41 pm

    Mike, Mike, Mike – I’m so sorry I forgot about you. It wasn’t intended as a slight at all.

    You too are WHITE person.

    Maybe not as ugly as Brett and OB; eish, I lie you’re also an ugly f&%^er!

  • WoodForTheTrees

    Dear Pierre,

    I do have a few problems with this article which I hope you don’t mind entertaining.

    I find the fact that you are constantly attacking Afrikaners in this post very offensive and simultaneously ridiculous, seeing as you are an Afrikaner.

    1) ‘Almost all white people’ benefited from Apartheid policies? I don’t suppose that you are counting the thousands of Afrikaners living in poverty in South Africa among those? I find the argument that whites living in poverty are more advantaged than blacks living in poverty a downright absurd argument.

    2) Your point about black teenagers having to dress up to go to Sandton City in order to not be identified as shoplifters is irrelevant. Most security personnel and shop assistants at these malls are Africans, so are Afrikaners now to blame for the prejudices Africans hold against one another?

    Pierre, I am not usually the kind of person to get personal in a debate but I am afraid this is a special circumstance. I was raised in post-apartheid South Africa where day after day I have to hear about the terrible deeds that my forefathers committed. For the last 19 years I have had to hear about Apartheid and the terrible Afrikaner in class, on television, on radio and out of the mouths of Afrikaners like yourself. I am constantly bombarded by these words of hate dressed in the rainbow coloured dress of repressive tolerance.

    I have to experience the pain of having all my role models spat on by the people who have barely any concept of what they stood for: M. E. R. who fought for the rights of the poor. Christiaan De Wet who fought against an unjust enemy that starved women and children in the concentration camps. Pres. Kruger & Pres. Steyn who stood up in the face of the mightiest empire on earth to keep their people free from foreign oppression. All of them are painted as racists or forgotten because they do not fit in with your ideals.

    I have to listen to this hatred against Afrikaners and our heritage day after day and I am not alone in saying that I am tired of it.

    Pierre jy hoort jouself the skaam, jou voorvaders draai in hul grafte as hulle hoor wat jy te se het oor jou eie mense. Dit is verstaanbaar dat jy gevoelens van haat mag he teenoor die vorige regime wat teen jou gediskrimineer het op sekere gronde maar dit meen nie dat jy alle Afrikaners kan inkleur met die selfde potlood nie.

    Ek weet daar is baie meer in my volk se geskiedenis as net die afgelope 60 jaar.

    Ek sal nie meer langer jammer se vir die optrede van my voorvaders nie.

    Ek is n trotse Afrikaner en ek staan 100% agter Stellenbosch en enige ander organisasie wat die verwoesting van my erfenis en taal teenstaan.

    Pierre, ek hoop jy neem kennis dat daar n fynlyn tussen integrasie en gedwonge assimilasie is.

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  • cat

    I find this article extremely racist and blatantly insulting. Most whites actually work VERY HARD and sacrifice a LOT to get their children in to university. If we didn’t care we would send them to state schools…Every parent wants the best for their child. Even if we are able to send them to university and they are the best in their class, a black person will be given the job. This has resulted in whites now “training” their kids mind set from a young age to start their own business instead of working for someone else. Thus BEE is a useless exercise and in general only benefits one generation as many people do not try to uplift their children and relatives by creating long-term wealth (did anyone say black BMW that loses value once it drives out of the showroom?) . Whites will remain bosses as long as they are the ones starting their own businesses and not relying on hand outs and government jobs. No Thank You to BEE – it makes one weak and lazy.