Constitutional Hill

Why are South Africans not worried about deployment of troops in a civil war?

When should South African troops get involved in the internal disputes of another country? Should we ever send troops to protect the President of a foreign country and to train its army who is fighting a rebel insurgency? Would it be acceptable to send South African troops to Afghanistan to protect President Hamid Karzai and to train his soldiers fighting the Taliban? If not, when would it be wise to send troops to a foreign country involved in a war? For some reasons most South Africans do not seem to care much about such vital questions. But they should.

Earlier this week the Presidency announced the movement of about 400 South African National Defence Force (SANDF) soldiers to the troubled Central African Republic (CAR). The deployment was apparently authorised by President Jacob Zuma, who is also the Commander-in-Chief of the SANDF, on January 3 to “assist with capacity building of the CAR Defence Force” and to assist CAR with the “planning and implementation of the disarmament, demobilisation and re-integration” of rebel troops and is authorised for a period of 5 years.

Few South Africans would be aware that South Africa has had a military presence in CAR since 2007 in terms of a bilateral co-operation agreement between the two countries. South Africa and CAR signed a military cooperation agreement in 2007, which was renewed for a further five years in December 2012. That agreement is to provide CAR’s army with an array of military training, from infantry, artillery and Special Forces training to logistics and driving courses, as well as “refurbishment” of military infrastructure in Bouar and Bangui. South Africa’s military has also supported disarmament, demobilization and reintegration (DDR) programmes, and it assisted in CAR’s 2011 elections.

After the signing of the military cooperation agreement – and before the recent deployment – the numbers of SANDF personnel had fluctuated by between 20 and 46 soldiers. These soldiers served in CAR at the request of President Francois Bozize who came to power in a coup and won controversial re-election in 2011. The original deployment included a SANDF Special Forces unit, provided for “VIP protection to President Bozize.” This means South African troops have been protecting President Bozize (acting as a potentially lethal blue light brigade) for the past two years.

Section 201 of the South African Constitution authorises the President to deploy the SANDF “in fulfilment of international obligations”. However, the section also requires the President to inform Parliament “promptly and in appropriate detail” of the reasons for the employment of the defence force; any place where the force is being employed; the number of people involved; and the period for which the force is expected to be employed. Section 18 of the Defence Act further requires the President to inform Parliament of the “expenditure incurred or expected to be incurred” by the deployment.

When Parliament is not in sitting during the first seven days after the defence force is employed (as is currently the case), the President must provide the information required to the Portfolio Committee on Defence. This means that Zuma has until Thursday to inform the Portfolio Committee of the deployment as well as of the estimated cost of the deployment. If he fails to inform the Portfolio Committee as required, the deployment would become unconstitutional and unlawful.

There are two important reasons for the requirement to inform the Parliament of the deployment.

First, it prevents the President from deploying SANDF troops in secret, either inside or outside South Africa. In 1975 the apartheid regime invaded Angola, but this information was kept from the South African public. In Mark Behr’s novel, The Smell of Apples there is a scene in which the South African troops in Angola listened in astonishment as the South African government Ministers denied that South African troops were present in Angola. The apartheid regime saw nothing wrong with lying to the country about the Defence Force involvement in Angola.

South Africans only received confirmation of this invasion when it was revealed in Parliament by Frederick van Zyl Slabbert. Slabbert had to reveal the information in Parliament where he was protected by Parliamentary privilege in order to evade the strict secrecy legislation in place at the time. Our Constitution now requires the President to inform Parliament promptly of a deployment to prevent the government from misleading the public again in such a flagrant manner. As the deployment of South African troops in a war situation is a radical step, and as the President is accountable to Parliament and to the voters for taking such a step, the President cannot deploy troops in secret to avoid accountability for his actions.

Second, Parliament has the ultimate say over any deployment of troops, both inside South Africa and abroad. In terms of section 18 of the Defence Act, Parliament is authorised to confirm the deployment of troops; order the amendment of such authorisation; or order the termination of the employment of the Defence Force. This has to be done by a resolution “within seven days after receiving information” about the deployment from the President.

This means that if Parliament is not happy with the deployment of South African troops to a foreign country it may recall the troops. Given the fact that the ANC has a large majority in Parliament and that its members will not second-guess the President, it is sadly unthinkable at present that Parliament would use its power to amend the deployment order (by limiting it to a period of 6 months, say) or to recall the troops already stationed in CAR.

Section 20 of the Defence Act allows soldiers stationed in CAR to exercise powers and duties for the purpose of the successful execution of their employment. As the soldiers have been deployed to disarm rebels and to protect the President, this seems to authorise our soldiers to get involved in fighting in CAR. How else will one disarm rebels who are refusing to lay down their arms and how else will one protect President Bozize if he is being attacked by rebels. Let’s hope it does not get to that.

But I guess that was also what many Americans said when they first heard of the deployment of their troops in Vietnam.

  • http://mhambi.com Wessel van Rensburg

    I have it from a reputable source that the reason for the troops is that the South African government has mining rights in the country. In other words, this is not about lofty ideals, but plain colonialist type extraction politics.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Are there any restrictions placed on the reasons for a deployment? Would it be different if the SANDF was fighting with the rebels? For example, what if the SANDF was deployed to fight against Ghadaffi?

  • Jeffman

    Interesting, but more interesting would be an article on the legality on the detention of Dr Karabus in the UAE, and the constitutional right to assistance from the govt to a citizen illegally detained. Perhaps a synopsis of the UAE legal system (or lack thereof) in comparison to our own and the lack of audi alterem partem might find its way in to the public domain and embarass the UAE govt into releasing him.

  • Gwebecimele

    Cruel reward indeed. A highly paid useless snr departmental official is behind this unfortunate situation. Sadtu is nowhere to be seen.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/01/09/brilliant-maths-teacher-loses-her-job

  • ozoneblue

    I must agree with Pierre. It is probably less problematic to deploy SANDF in Steelenbosch to help subdue “the poor”.

  • Anonymouse

    deja vu – Bosoorlog – hie’ ko’ o’s wie!

  • Gwebecimele

    Hats off to the journalist for digging up the unsexy stories of real south africans that we try hard to forget. Right to dignity my foot.

    http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-01-09-2013-the-fight-for-dignity

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    Because we’re being diverted to the common sense bigotry of Stephen Mulholland?

  • Truth

    There is no doubt that SA is a leader in Africa and as such it has the responsibility to ensure that there is democracy and stability in the content. How it achieves this is another story.

    The risks of getting involved in foreign conflicts are immense and the decision to intervene militarily should not be taken lightly. Getting involved in foreign conflicts can result in terrorist’s attacks here in our own soil. Furthermore, all rebel groups are propped-up by other states so your enemy is not just the rebel group you faced with but the state behind that rebel group as well, just as it happened in Angola when US and SA faced-off with Russia and Cuba.

    It always baffles me why SA allows the situation in Congo to deteriorate to where it is currently, after investing so much in that country and I can only assume that SA is not ready to face-off with the states propping-up the rebel groups in that country which may include some European countries.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Pierre, I find the comparison with the apartheid regime’s invasion of Angola odious. First, we have the best Constitution in the world. Second, South African assistance in defending the legitimate government of President Bozize against imperialist aggression is in keeping with AFRICAN SOLUTIONS TO AFRICAN PROBLEMS.

    Thanks.

  • ozoneblue

    Well said mfd. You dont find it strange that he is still steadfastly dodging the SANDF helps DA suppress democracy in WC debacle?

  • Mike

    @PDV -The troops that went into Angola knew very well that it was a clandestine incursion because if you interview them and I met many of them in the army in the 1970′s they will tell you that they were issued new uniforms and FNLA ID documents, this relates in particular to those that captured the port of Lobito.
    No sooner had they done this a cuple of later two Unicorn coastal tankers sailed in and re-supplied the SADF with fuel.
    So they were not surprised at the politicians denial that SADF troops were in Angola.

  • ozoneblue

    @mike

    Dont ever mention the Cold War. PdV and fellow USA arse-sucking White liberals dont have no memory of that.

  • sirjay jonson

    In this matter I am reminded of Canada’s role in developing one of the four pillars for maintaining world peace, the Peacekeepers. Ideologically and necessary, Peacekeepers are vital in our troubled world, being sent at risk to the aid of foreign countries for the sole purpose of protecting vulnerable civilians, to hold the line against savage intrusions on innocent civilian lives.

    Perhaps South Africa should realize that peacekeeping are not commissioned to support dictators but to protect civilians. Peacekeepers are not there to maintain control of oil or valuable resources or to share in criminal intentions. Thus the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa made binding guiding rules for the use of SA military forces in foreign countries.

    Its such a pity that South Africa doesn’t reach for the highest of civilized principles in their use of military forces, or for that matter in general. This present action reeks of suspicious forces at play.

    Karma’s a bitch, sometimes instant but if delayed, always inevitable.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    sirjay jonson
    January 9, 2013 at 19:49 pm

    Me non intelligunt non anglicus – placere transferendum ad latinam.

  • sirjay jonson

    ozoneblue
    January 9, 2013 at 19:44 pm
    @mike
    “Dont ever mention the Cold War. PdV and fellow USA arse-sucking White liberals dont have no memory of that.”

    OZ, really now, its time to seek out suitable therapy. Are you familiar with the phrase… “You have the right to speak out and the right thereof to make an ass of yourself.” Are you certain you want to keep doing that?

  • Brett Nortje
  • Brett Nortje

    sirjay jonson says:
    January 9, 2013 at 19:49 pm

    Don’t mean to lay the blame on you personally, Sirjay, but Canada did not come out of the RWanda debacle looking too good.

    The name Romeo Dallaire springs to mind.

    With respect to your other observation my gut says the same: The ANC learned a lot watching ZANU-PF aparatchics and nomenklatura getting stinking rich off the DRC’s minerals.

  • Dmwangi

    @Sirjay:

    “In this matter I am reminded of Canada’s role in developing one of the four pillars for maintaining world peace, the Peacekeepers. Ideologically and necessary, Peacekeepers are vital in our troubled world, being sent at risk to the aid of foreign countries for the sole purpose of protecting vulnerable civilians, to hold the line against savage intrusions on innocent civilian lives.”

    Canada is responsible for maintaining world peace? Are you high? The dop system has to go!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 9, 2013 at 21:57 pm

    Hey Silly-guy,

    “Canada is responsible for maintaining world peace?”

    You’re dumber than you look.

    Read more carefully.

    Sirjay said “Canada’s role in developing one of the four pillars for maintaining world peace, the Peacekeepers”

    Would you like an easy-to-read version or would you prefer an Idiot’s-Guide-for-Idiots!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    sirjay jonson
    January 9, 2013 at 20:53 pm

    Ja – me and mike both don’t seem to suffer from deleted-memory-syndrome. We should go correct the wiki.

    The Cold War must be deleted because it fucks with USA racist Critical Race Theory. Whites fighting with Blacks – wtf?

    The Cold War must be deleted because it accentuates the class struggle above “White Supremacy”.

    The Cold War must be deleted because then Apartheid was in fact a more than simple “White Supremacism”, but in fact part of the Western war against socialist doctrine?

    The Cold Ware must be deleted – because if it was about class struggle then the ANC and the majority Black middle/upper class must also share their wealth instead of just blaming Whites?

  • Dmwangi

    @Literalistic Fool:

    I didn’t actually mean that Sirjay is on the dop either.

    Point is, it’s absurd to claim Canada has had any substantial role in developing “one of the…pillars for maintaining world peace.” It’s not even a regional hegemon much less a world player.

    But thanks for stopping by Chaiwala.

  • Maggs Naidu

    *clears throat*

    Dmwangi – I think you’ve settled for the Idiot’s guide!

    Read Sirjay’s comment again. Slowly. Ok strike that slowly bit – you’re already.

    No where does he say “substantial”.

    Maybe Canada’s role was photocopying.

    Twit!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    he he -

    censorship one again.

  • Maggs Naidu

    P.s. Sirjay is “on the “dop”!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    “South Africa police fire rubber bullets at farm workers”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20957069

    No mention of SANDF being deployed by DA in WC.

    “DA says deployment of SANDF to Central African Republic unconstitutional”

    Where is our “constitutional expert” when you really need him.

  • Dmwangi

    Are you even qualified to serve chai?

    ‘Sirjay said “Canada’s role in developing one of the four pillars for maintaining world peace, the Peacekeepers”.’

    So now you’re trying to tell us that being responsible for developing 1/4 of the sine qua non mechanisms for maintaining world peace is not a ‘substantial’ role. Lol! Okay, Chai-guy. Stay away from IR and stick to what you know– chai and serving up loads of insignificant babble.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu
    January 9, 2013 at 23:03 pm

    Hey maggs. Stop talking kak now.

    Do you think that PdV also hates COLOUREDS just like Jimmy Manyi, and that is why he don’t mention WC. Perhaps they don’t fit into his “White Supremacist” world view – COLOUREDS being half White and half Black?

    Zille requests deployment of SANDF in WCape farm areas

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=343559&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “SANDF being deployed by DA in WC.”

    OzoneBlue, I have two questions for you:

    1. Is Zille now preparing to commit GENOCIDE in the WC?

    2. Is it because he was trained at the BRODERBOND “Maties” that PdV is trying to distract is from the DA’s MARIKANA II by talking about the Central African Republic?

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 9, 2013 at 23:22 pm

    Hey Dm,

    “Are you even qualified to serve chai?”

    In India, me and 1.389 billion other coolies don’t serve chai, we just drink it – stop talking like a WHITE person, we know you don’t have dogs.

    But you are really confused about what this means : “Canada’s role in developing one of the four pillars for maintaining world peace, the Peacekeepers”.

    You could ask for your wife’s help again.

    But I’ll also give you some clues on what to look for

    “Canada’s role”

    “in developing”

    “one of the four pillars” (note that this does not mean a 1/4 – the 4 pillars are not necessarily equal).

    Let’s hope that you wife is as smart as you say she is – but she is without a doubt smarter than you, but since you’re such a doos, that’s not hard to be – and can explain these simple concepts to you.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 1:17 am

    “1. Is Zille now preparing to commit GENOCIDE in the WC?”

    I don’t know MFD. I believe that subjecting a population to conditions conducive to FAS and given the history of the “dop system” perpetuated by the very same people who sponsored the Apartheid University of Stellenbosch is indeed a form of genocide and that the DA are doing absolutely nothing to address that legacy.

    “FOETAL alcohol syndrome is ravaging Western Cape farming communities, with hundreds of children affected, research has found.

    That’s according to the preliminary findings of a five-year study, currently in its fourth year, being conducted by UCT, Stellenbosch University, the University of New Mexico in the US, and the Medical Research Council of South Africa (MRC). The areas studied include Wellington, Bonnievale, Robertson, Ashton and Montagu.

    According to the findings, the Western Cape still has the highest incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome worldwide.

    The syndrome, which results from pregnant women drinking alcohol, is characterised in children by distinctive facial features, which include narrow-set eyes, a small head, small jaw, and a flattened groove between the nose and upper lip.”

    http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/foetal-alcohol-syndrome-is-on-the-rise-says-study-1.1149361

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Perhaps the DEAFENING SILENCE because these historically abused workers who earn a fraction of the Amapondo rock-drillers in NW province are Afrikaans speaking with Boer surnames like Lottering and Louw as Ronald Lamola would put it?

    “Some protesters carried placards in the Afrikaans language which read, “Agri SA [a reference to the body representing employers] you are apartheid farmers”, AFP reports.

    The workers, many of them seasonally employed to pick and pack fruit, say they cannot survive on a daily wage of about $8, Reuters news agency reports.

    “We are struggling. School is starting and we don’t have money for school clothes,” said Lena Lottering, 35, a mother of three.

    Another worker, Aubrey Louw, 47, told Reuters he had worked on the farms since the 1970s when he received 45 rand ($5) a day.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20957069

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Hmmm!

    So is Judge Phillip Burochowitz cautious about how he treats CJ Moegeng’s church?

    One church in particular, Winners Chapel International, opposite the Doll House roadhouse, has been allegedly operating illegally for three years.

    In October, the City of Joburg finally instituted action against the church by applying for an interdict because Winners Chapel is accused of being in breach of several by-laws. The church had until November 6 to submit a replying affidavit, which it failed to do. A few days later, the church obtained condonation from the court to submit its response by November 26, which it again failed to do, although it did submit it a day later. The matter was postponed to the end of January.

    The church has been rezoned by the council as a place of worship, but failed to submit building plans, and continued converting and altering outside buildings and neighbouring shops.

    The church’s legal representative admitted to The Star last year that plans had not been submitted.

    In terms of council by-laws, said Marian Laserson, who specialises in town-planning issues, the conversion of a building to an alternative use cannot start until building plans have been approved.

    Parking regulations had to be adhered to, so it was unlikely that any plans would be approved as there is no parking in the area. Using the parking across the road, at the Doll House, which the church is doing, is not enough to get plans approved, she said.

    Enraged residents claim that initially services were held once or twice a week, but now they were held every night.

    They claim electronic bands play until all hours of the morning and it is no longer just prayer services which are held. There are many Jewish people living in the neighbourhood who claim the loud noise disrupts their Friday night observations and other religious holidays.

    City of Joburg spokesman Nthatisi Modingoane confirmed that legal action had been taken against the church and said that Judge Phillip Burochowitz was not prepared to hear the matter and postponed it sine die, with costs reserved.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/illegal-churches-a-plague-1.1448758#.UO5a5azxkRg

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 10, 2013 at 8:12 am

    Hey maggs. Stop talking kak in here.

    Rather tell us why are you “makula” and those drunken over-concentrated “coloureds” in the WC (who apparently nobody wants to talk about) abandoning the ANC?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    January 10, 2013 at 9:51 am

    Ozone Boy,

    “who apparently nobody wants to talk about”

    Since you qualify as a “NOBODY”, feel free to talk about it!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    LOL.

    Perhaps I must start a satellite blog and invite all “White liberals” to comment?

    Something like: Why are South Africans not worried about deployment of troops in a civil war in the Western Cape?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneBlue

    I would not consider joining your so-called “satellite blog” so long as you describe the massacres in the Western Cape as a “civil war”. I call it GENOCIDE, and demand that Zille be investigated for WAR CRIMES..

    Thanks a lot.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Sirjay

    If Canada is so prominent in international peacekeeping then any breakdown internationally allows us to …

    Blame Canada! Blame Canada!

    (Its not a real country after all) :)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 10:54 am

    But you/maggs/Brett/Dmwani/MO have never made a single post besides your usual overblown hyperboles to question why PdV ignored and continues to ignore the virtually unchallenged SANDF deployment in WC while pontificating about the “constitutionality” of this deployment on foreign soil?

    Why is that? Why don’t you post on my blog? Why do I get blocked here on regular basis? Same as with Thought leaders? Is it because you are also a fucking spineless White liberal, a collaborator, preaching neoliberalism and racism in the guise of a fake assault on “whiteness” which you hope will distract us all?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Oh this horrible “whiteness” problem strikes another blow.

    UK university suspends Uganda degrees in gay law row

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20958929

  • Brett Nortje

    Uh…. Jou blog is ‘cringe-worthy’ hoor ek….

    Maar donner asb. aan – Ek wag angstig om te en gaan vir jare giggel wanneer ek hoor Pierrot het as motivering op sy aansoek vir ‘n vuurwapenlisensie gesit jy stalk hom….

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    January 10, 2013 at 9:55 am

    LOL Maggs, you’ve made my day!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    January 10, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    Uh…. Jou blog is ‘cringe-worthy’ hoor ek….

    AK is pretty “cringe-worthy” himself. I would rather take that as a compliment.

    As far as “stalking” PdV – - he is an internationally respected commentator and he makes statements that are quoted in the international press. He therefore shapes and controls my future and that of my kids.

    As maggs pointed out I’m “nobody”. I’m not in this for jerking off with on my own ego, or building a career for myself as seems to be what 99% of these professional White liberals are all about.

    But even the common, nameless, White man can have his say.

  • Donovan

    Eish, Prof to quote Mark Behr, who admitted to being an apartheid spy in the eighties….shame the lengths you will go to ignore context

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneBlue

    “you are also a fucking spineless White liberal, a collaborator, preaching neoliberalism…”

    OB, with respect, I am nonplussed you call me a “NEO-LIBERAL,” given that I have spent my entire life struggling against that creed. But I make no apologies for my condemnation of the cult of WHITELINESS in all of its manifestations. I join Prof Vice and Ms Schutte in demanding that you and other WHITISTS just SHUT UP about things that do not concern you!

    Thanks very much.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 14:01 pm

    So why did you not call PdV on SANDF in WC?

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    Zille requested SANDF back-up for the cops but as far as I know it went no further than a request. No ways the ANC is going to help out a DA-run province when the ANC/COSATU bunch are driving the protests!

    Bit of a theoretical issue then?

    The ANC has deployed military units quite often actually.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Come PdV, “Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder” and “Maggs Naidu”.

    Where is the outrage against this WHITENESS of employing SANDF to control unruly “COLOUREDS” in the WC, just as during Apartheid?

    “Troops occupy the townships

    In October 1984 the apartheid state responded to the Vaal unrest and the almost total boycott of the coloured and Indian elections by sending 7000 South African Defence Force (SADF) troops into the black townships of the Vaal to crush the uprising. They named this ‘Operation Palmiet.’

    The UDF, and a newly formed organisation called the End Conscription Campaign (ECC), demanded SADF troops out of the townships.

    In November UDF affiliates in the Transvaal organised the biggest work stayaway in 35 years. This was done through civics, youth groups, trade unions, and other township-based organisations. The UDF national leadership was in disarray at the time – either in detention or in hiding – and thus unable to meet.

    The Transvaal stayaway showed the power of mass action, but it did not stop the repression. Both the mass violence and the government repression spread further.”

    http://www.saha.org.za/udf25/occupation_emergency_and_detention.htm

    I’m still waiting, boet.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    “I’m still waiting, boet.”

    OzoneBoet, I demand that you stop waiting and go back to what you were doing before. I demand further that you stop commenting in public on matters that are of no concern to WHITISTS.

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 16:02 pm

    Dworky,

    “OzoneBoet, I demand that you stop waiting and go back to what you were doing before.”

    I’ve got good news and bad news for you.

    The good news is that Ozone Boy has heeded your demand and gone back to what he was “doing before”.

    The bad news is that before he was, er, “waiting”!

    :P

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 16:02 pm

    he, he. Now answer the question.

    Thank you very much.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @OzoneBoet

    With huge respek, this is a matter for Africans, not those with WHITIST TENDENCIES to discuss.

    Thank you so very much.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 10, 2013 at 20:52 pm

    Oh Thanks. You are so fucking polite. So you, PdV, maggs and fellow “non-WHITIST” sell-outs are batting for the Democratic Alliance [now?]

    Just look how easily you useless White cunts got outed.

    LOL.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneBoet

    Personally, I would rather be ruled by Pol Pot than Mrs Zille.

    WDYS?

  • ozoneblue

    In fact I would rather be ruled by FW De Klerk than either of the two.

  • sirjay jonson

    Dmwangi
    January 9, 2013 at 23:22 pm

    My point DM was simply that the birth of international Peacekeepers was developed by Canada, as was the League of Nations which evolved into the United Nations. Canada’s Peacekeepers are still considered the best of the best.

    I am aware of Lieutenant-General Roméo Antonius Dallaire’s lack of action in Uganda. Canada felt suitably shamed at the time, although Dallaire was under orders from ‘management’ not to act. He went through a painful and emotional period following that incident.

    Its apparent that no one knew how to deal with Uganda then and not even today.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rom%C3%A9o_Dallaire

    PS: I’m not on the Dop but I do live in a Dorp. And I know how to serve chai.

  • Gwebecimele

    As Dworky would say, “They don’t have medals or play for the important teams”

    “Crime is Crime
    Not trivialising the horrible alleged hit and run that claimed the life of famed cyclist Burry Stander a couple of weeks ago, the outrage and horror South Africans expressed after his death is exactly how we should react no matter whom and where the criminal act takes place. As it is continuously said that SA is one the most violent countries in the world, this should adequate in motivating us to fight crime before we personally become victims of it (I know how much we value our material possessions).
    Just because someone famous is murdered today, should not take precedent over someone who was killed in Nyanga two days back. The approach should be to fight this pandemic and root it out to safe guard our communities instead taking into account the victim’s social pedigree or what kind of media headlines it will generate before deciding its seriousness. This will go a long way in proving to criminals that we will not let them hold power over us whether we in our homes, cars, hangout spots and the workplace.”
    http://voices.news24.com/bonga-dlulane/2013/01/its-criminal-only-if-its-personal/

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele, do you/have you see/n any signs that the provincial MEC may be inclined to take some responsibility for what appears to be a Shaka-let-the-impis-dance-on-thorns moment?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    January 11, 2013 at 10:15 am

    There is no question that certain kinds of “crime” is ultra violent, inspired by racial hatred and must be politically motivated.

    And please stop talking about crime as if it is a “problem” that, ag shame, we have no control over. Who appointed a friend of the mafia as Commissioner of Police? and then another corrupt bastard to follow in his footsteps. The same corrupt former Police Commissioner, fired form his job and now again elected to the ANC NEC?

    How do you solve “crime” that way?

  • Gwebecimele

    Brett

    Apparently the wealthy have a special need to have bigger engines that exceed 250 km/h while the rest of us must keep below 120km/h. Count yourself lucky everytime you reach your destination. BTW you can be knocked out by one of these, taxi, truck or a Blue Light.

    Thank God there were no cyclists, pedestrians and other motorists around.

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    “The same corrupt former Police Commissioner, fired form his job and now again elected to the ANC NEC?”

    I hope Cele will request you to support your claim that he is corrupt.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    January 11, 2013 at 11:08 am

    So he is not corrupt? Why was he fired then? More political games? but what is at stake here – the image of or state and our law enforcement capacity or more private interest of individuals and greed elevated above the needs of our nation who it is said to be suffering because amongst other things “crime”.

    Either way, sorry not acceptable.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Sirjay

    Dallaire’s inaction is one thing, but what about the global pain inflicted by Bryan Adams? Have you Canadians no shame? :)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    But the “freemarket” will solve all our problems. Until we run out of strategic resources, and then have too import at much higher cost. Just like wine farms are absolutely essential to “food security” I imagine.

    “Blom said Eskom would run out of coal in the Middleburg area, where its major power stations are, between 2015 and 2020, and transport costs would weigh heavily on it.

    Leon Louw, the executive director at Free Market Foundation, said that the country was suffering from a massive balance of payments deficit, so it was “ludicrous” to have a giant conglomerate upset about two of its suppliers’ business arrangements and potentially trying to restrict exports. “Everyone in South Africa wants to promote exports except Eskom.”

    Louw said it had no right to ask for special conditions. “That Eskom can even be taken seriously shows how serious the problem is.”

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-01-11-00-giant-merger-puts-wind-up-eskom

    The National Union of Mine­workers and the National Union of Metalworkers of South Africa also raised concerns about retrenchments and the increased risk to coal supplies and prices.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ BlueOzone-Person

    I place you in the same category as WHITENESS theorists like Gillian Schutte, whose liberal “anti-Racism” is demolished by Andile Mngxitama is the M&G today. As against Schutte, Andile cites the “coming apocalypse best described in JM Coetzee’s Disgrace:”

    “To his credit, Coetzee left the country, because he knows, like Lucy in the novel, that whites have to start from the beginning — like dogs. This kind of thinking offends liberals like Schutte, who just want a little bit of encouragement.”

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele says:
    January 11, 2013 at 10:58 am

    If you’re going to complain that Stander should not get any special consideration from the public (literally, you’re arguing a zero-sum-total for public attention and outrage) just because he is an Olympian then what about all the special attention Mandela received over Christmas over other old folks who might have had nothing to eat?

    Bud, the whole Burry Stander story is nothing in my life. If you want my attention interest me in good ideas or similar. Like dogs or pigeons or gun rights.

    If anything, it seemed to me that the taxi-driver was ‘arrested’ (based on media-idiots hearsay?) very quickly and that the window for due process was pretty small.

    Would we have seen ANY consequences though if the Burry-Stander-supporting public had not seized what opportunities came their way? How many of them would have felt either the screamed blue murder or the South African norm of ‘haikona matatazela’ kicked in?

    No consequences?

  • Brett Nortje

    Gwebecimele, I ask you again:

    Brett Nortje says:
    January 11, 2013 at 10:32 am
    Gwebecimele, do you/have you see/n any signs that the provincial MEC may be inclined to take some responsibility for what appears to be a Shaka-let-the-impis-dance-on-thorns moment?

  • Brett Nortje

    Now, whose place is it to ensure that consequences follow?

    All I can do is scream blue murder and talk shit on a blog.

    Why are black people doing even less?

    Pierrot, waar was jy op Veldskool in Std 8?

  • Gwebecimele

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-01-08-standers-death-the-fruit-of-a-poisoned-society

    That’s one way of looking at it. But there’s a detail no one seems to have grocked about this latest tragedy: both Njabulo Nyawose and Burry Stander were on the road earning a living. They may have come from different backgrounds, but the tarred roads that are paid for and maintained at the behest of South African taxpayers are essential to their respective bank accounts. No mountain biker can be competitive without spending the bulk of his training time on the road. And I needn’t spell out what roads mean for a taxi driver.

    In other words, both Stander and Nyawose used a public service in order to eat, and in turn maintained those services by paying taxes – not just on the money they earned from their jobs, but on the goods they purchased, like the petrol Nyawose pumped into his machine every day. There is no hierarchy in this equation – both men were entitled to use the road for their respective purposes, so long as they obeyed the rules that applied to them both, equally.

    So far, so obvious. What seems to escape South Africa’s ken, however, is the fact that everyone who uses our roads should be guaranteed safe passage. On Boxing Day, I had a good, old-fashioned, dry-as-a-bone gallows laugh – Sky News International ran as their lead story the death of a mother and her two children in a road accident somewhere in England. Horrific, I know.

    But over the holiday season in South Africa, there is a story like that every hour. The Road Traffic Management Corporation (RTMC) can’t count how many people have died since the middle of December – their rough estimate is around 1 300. That’s the population of a good-sized dorp. That’s four full Boeing 747′s, and a 737 thrown in for change. That’s almost half of the casualties from 9/11. That’s carnage. That’s a massacre.

    Burry Stander is swallowed whole by that monstrous figure – he becomes a statistic within a statistic. One thousand three hundred. How many other cyclists belong to this number? A dozen? A hundred? Two hundred? The RTMC has no idea. They offer us bulk, not precision.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 11, 2013 at 11:24 am

    Thanks for the tip mfd. We are aware of Schutte/De Vos/Andile Mngxitama syndrome.

    “Schutte wants whites to relax because blacks have no ill intention towards them despite all that has happened in the past.”

    That is exactly why Brett, myself and all the other “racist Whites”, no matter our political or ethical convictions, must not be foolhardy or naive and be working on contingent action and formulate an appropriate response.

  • Gwebecimele

    Brett

    I am not sure what you want me to say. I hear Minister Ben Martins wants to implement a ” No drink & drive” but I am not sure what is the plan for drunk pedestrians,

  • Brett Nortje

    I take your point about drunk pedestrians, Gwebecimele, it ties in with the ISS’ research which shows that in 80% of homicides the victim and perpetrators know each other, social fabric crimes which little can be done about in terms of practical policing.

    What I’m arguing is that if you’re a member of the public, who wants justice, a little by way of consequences from the side of the state (action) for obvious wrongs don’t look to the system. Whether the wrong is my paying R5000 a month for water for two years while the City of JHB did SFA about my complaint or the kid knocked over by Mmemezi – who left the scene of the accident or Willies Mchunu’s victims or babies who die alone in a namechanged Potgietersrus’ hospital….

    The ANC don’t care. You cannot shame them into action. But they are scared of being blamed on camera.

    I want to tell you a little story that ties in with the experience of the heat-stroke victims. A vignette of white society. The power of ‘shame’ if you will.

    We went to visit my younger brother one weekend at the Provost School.
    (He was a VIP bodyguard in the Army and drove some of the ANC negotiators around who were trying to set up the National Peace Accord.)
    When we got there the first thing we noticed was all the kids had huge blotches of mercurochrome on their elbows. Turned out one of the NCOs had sensed slapgatgeit in the best Shaka tradition and everyone got what is called a ‘teer opfok’. In short everyone gets to do PT on the tar including a lot of leopard-crawling.

    When my brother spoke to my mom mid-week he was giggling. One of the moms had phoned the commanding officer of the Provost School first thing Monday morning and told him she was an absolute stickler for discipline too, but that no-one was checking to see that all the kids with infected elbows were healing up.

    Shit rolls downhill, no C.O. is tougher than an angry mom.

    A ‘shamed’ C.O. soon let the whole world know there was nothing dumber or lower than an NCO who did not take care of his kids when they were injured.

    If this is the situation that obtained in the special forces in white South Africa’s army why are things so different now, Gwebecimele?

    Why is the only defence mechanism ordinary people have to first muster the forces of public outrage if you are to have any hope of ‘consequences’ IN THE NEWSOUTHAFRICA?

  • Dmwangi

    Sirjay:

    1) Do you mean Rwanda?

    2) the LoN was a disaster.

    3) Canada was one of 42 founding members. Hardly seems worthy of the plaudits you’re showering on it.

  • Hlayisekamike

    There is what is best for the country…South Africa is not just country in Africa, but the best partner of African states.having invested billions of dollars in the whole continent shows what a best friend South Africa is in the continent.Many African countries rely on South Africa for their survival.Since 1994 South Africa has never betrayed even a single fellow African state.Both military and economically South Africa has served well the continent.ask Mozambique and Angola,you will find a good picture of South Africa as this were once big enemies of apartheid government now our best friends.both Angola and mozambique are doing well economical and military in partnership with the government South Africa of which president Zuma is leading.Democratic republic of Congo,Central african republic are very close in finding solution for peace and stability in partnership with South Africa.we now know that there are certain outside influences to distabilise Africa while gaining from its rich resources.African renaissance is not just an idea but a reality which strive to promote an African economic boom.African countries are becoming more responsible and united than ever before in promoting peace and stability in the continent.we a very close in achieving peace and stability in Africa which is leading to the economic boom.Sudan,Somalia,Mali,libya are also about to persue complete peace and stability soon.Africa is ready to face its own main poverty challenges as a resuilt of war,ignorance,corruption and instability to ensure that there is quick development to adress the bad African image in the world.AFRICA OUR MOTHER LAND IS READY FOR ECONOMIC BOOM OF THE CENTURY…