Constitutional Hill

Why is Mthethwa trying to stop inquiry into police incompetence?

The South African Police Service (SAPS) is not well known for its conscientious, efficient, no-holds barred investigations into serious and violent crime, especially when the victim is not a foreign tourist or a blond rugby player. Where the victim is poor, black, gay, lesbian or transgender the indifference of the Police often borders on the criminal. This is also true in Cape Town, where you will almost certainly receive far better service at the Sea Point or Hout Bay Police Stations than at the Harare Police station in Khayelitsha. But for once it is the national government (and not the provincial government) who is blocking attempts at addressing the unequal treatment of citizens in the mother city.

When Western Cape Premier Helen Zille finally appointed a Commission of Inquiry into reports of SAPS inefficiency in Khayelitsha and the breakdown of trust between the Khayelitsha community and the Police (buckling under sustained pressure from civil society groups), it was widely seen as a good first step towards addressing the shockingly high crime rates – one of the highest in the country – in Khayelitsha.

But then, inexplicably, Minister of Police Nathi Mthethwa rushed to court to try and stop the Commission from continuing with its work. Mthethwa seemed particularly worried about the fact that the Commission can subpoena members of SAPS to force them to testify before it. As the Constitution requires various spheres of government to co-operate with one another in “mutual trust and good faith” by, amongst others, “consulting one another about matters of common interest”, Mthethwa told the court that he was not adequately consulted about the move to appoint a Commission of Inquiry. Mthethwa furthermore argued that the Premier encroached upon the powers of the national government by appointing a Commission of Inquiry into SAPS inefficiency in the Province.

The Western Cape High Court (in a majority decision) rejected Mthethwa’s application for an interim interdict to stop the Commission from doing its work. The minority argued that – in terms of the principles of co-operative government – there was a duty on Zille first to engage with the Minister before appointing such a Commission. Now Mthethwa has approached the Constitutional Court in a last ditched effort to stop the Commission from finding out why the SAPS in Khayelitsha is so dysfunctional.

In my opinion Minister Mthethwa is cynically using spurious legal arguments concocted by overpaid lawyers (and thereby wasting millions in taxpayer’s money), to stop an Inquiry that could help to improve policing in Khayelitsha.

Section 206(8) of the Constitution explicitly empowers the provincial government (whose executive authority is vested in the Premier) to appoint a Commission of Inquiry into any complaints of police inefficiency or a breakdown in relations between the police and any community in that province. The section also states that once the Inquiry has been completed, the Premier must make recommendations to the Minister of Police about how to address any problems relating to the SAPS management.

There is no constitutional duty on a Premier to consult with the Minister about the appointment of a Commission of Inquiry. In my opinion, both the minority and majority judgments got this completely wrong. As the Constitution explicitly grants the Premier the power to appoint a Commission of Inquiry into Police conduct, the Premier does not have to consult the Minister before exercising it. This is because the appointment of such a Commission is not a “matter of common interest” between the Premier and the Minister. Rather it is a matter only constitutionally of interest to the Premier who was granted the exclusive power to appoint a Commission of Inquiry. It only becomes a matter of interest to the Minister once the Commission delivers its report.

Where the Constitution explicitly and exclusively grants a power to one organ of state, that organ of state can and must exercise that power without having to consult with other organs of state. To hold otherwise would be to require the kind of incessant and debilitating consultation that would bring government at all levels to a grinding and permanent halt.

Just as the President does not have to consult the Premier before appointing a Commission of Inquiry into the failure to deliver textbooks to schools in Limpopo or into the cost implications of introducing a National Health Insurance scheme, so the Premier does not have to consult the Minister when appointing a Commission in terms of section 206. It is only once the Commission has delivered its report that the Premier has to consult the Minister about what steps could be taken to improve policing in Khayelitsha. As the implementation of policing in the province is not an exclusive provincial competence but one shared between the national and provincial spheres of government, the various parties must consult about it as required by the Constitution.

In fact, I would argue that the co-operative government provisions in the Constitution require the Minister (as well as the National and Provincial Police Commissioners) to co-operate with the Commission, to ensure that Police officers testify before it and that the Commission is granted access to all the necessary documents to complete its task. By rushing to Court and failing to co-operate with a Commission legally appointed by the Premier in terms of the powers granted to her by the Constitution itself, the Minister is in breach of his constitutional obligations to assist and support the Premier and to avoid legal proceedings against the Provincial government. This is because the Minister and the National and Provincial Commissioners share the constitutional powers to manage the police with the provincial government (as they do not share the powers to appoint a Commission). In my view the High Court should never even have considered the merits of the case and should have dismissed it out of hand.

Of course, once the Commission has concluded its Inquiry, both the Premier and the Minister will be required to engage with its report and would have to co-operate to try and find solutions for the abysmal management of the SAPS in many of the poorest areas of Cape Town. The Minister and his legal team are subverting the principles of co-operative government by trying to interfere with the constitutionally mandated exercise of powers of the Premier.

There is no rational reason for the Minister to have gone to court to try and stop this Commission of Inquiry. Politically, the Minister can only lose by appearing to want to protect possible corrupt or incompetent police officers rather than wanting to protect the ordinary people of Khayelitsha. Moreover, the power to appoint a Commission of Inquiry into the police is a limited one and exercising this power will not have immediate policy consequences. A Commission is no more than a fact finding exercise – it cannot make binding decisions. Where a Premier appoints such a Commission she can therefore never be said to assume powers of functions reserved for the national government. Once the Commission has concluded its Inquiry, the Premier will have to consult the Minister on what should be done – as required by the 206(8) and the co-operative government provisions of the Constitution.

Which leaves us with one of two options: either the Minister is trying to cover up corruption, nepotism or incompetence in the SAPS in Khayelitsha, or he is allowing his own ego and his antagonism towards the opposition to cloud his judgment – to the detriment of the people of Khayelitsha.

  • Jane Mason

    I did not get the sense that DA Premier, Helen Zille in any way appointed her Commission of inquiry in any way ‘buckling under sustained pressure from civil society groups’. Her stance has always been a bold defense of the rule of law and we who reside in the Western Cape are fortunate to have such a principled leader of our province.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    “Where the victim is poor, black, gay, lesbian or transgender the indifference of the Police often borders on the criminal.”

    That must be the biggest load of self-pitying nonsense I have ever read. How would police know you are gay, lesbian or transgender by just looking at you?

    Poor and black are quite obvious from outward appearances.

    I dare you now, walk into almost any police station in South Africa with your fancy outlandish accent, no matter what color you are, and you will see you get helped first before the “white trash” from Coronation park or Coloured glue sniffers from Mitchell’s Plain – if they get any help at all.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Jane Mason
    February 4, 2013 at 16:17 pm

    Jane,

    “I did not get the sense that DA Premier, Helen Zille in any way appointed her Commission of inquiry in any way ‘buckling under sustained pressure from civil society groups’. Her stance has always been a bold defense of the rule of law and we who reside in the Western Cape are fortunate to have such a principled leader of our province.”

    Is that your final answer or do you want to call a friend?

    Whether it was the dear madame “buckling under sustained pressure” or responding to calls from civil society (as all good premiers should) is neither nor there for now.

    But it is certainly not the case that she got up one morning and decided to appoint the CoI all by her lonesome!

  • postman

    This was relevant to the previous blog and it remains relevant to this one

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=354862&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “it is certainly not the case that [the Madam of Zillestan] got up one morning and decided to appoint the CoI all by her lonesome!”

    Maggs is right. Most responsible and ethical leaders tend to wake up in the morning and just do things by their lonesome. (Mr Zuma is the exception that proves the rule.)

    The Madame, by contrast, does not jump before she is pushed!

    Thanks.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 4, 2013 at 18:11 pm

    Dworky,

    “Mr Zuma is the exception that proves the rule.”

    Professor Zuma had nothing to do with the Nkandla Compound fiasco.

    He went home one day to say hello to his family and neighbours, saw the helipad, the astroturf, the cattle tunnel, the lifts, the underground bunkers, the tuckshop, the new roads, the triple bullet-proof glass, the airconditioners + more stuff.

    Then he thought to himself “things looks a little bit different around here” and he went back being Presidential saying “I had a dream that one day all this will be free”.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. But thank you Dworky for dissing the notion that Zille was not pressured by civil society to get a bit of action on the side!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, you know that I am no conspiracy theorist. But can we ignore the possibility that, far from “buckling” to NGO pressures, Madam Zille elicited/evoked/invited so-called “independent” NGO input, in order to justify her little “investigation”, designed to embarrass the Minister and SAPS? I would not put it past the devious dancing monkey! Would you?

  • Brett Nortje

    Outstanding analysis!

    The Minister’s antipathy towards the inquiry has to be seen in compliment with the ANC’s vehement opposition to the Western Cape Community Safety Bill and their bristling at any suggestion of holding the NPA to account.

    The warlords want unbridled power. They certainly do not wish to share.

  • sirjay jonson

    This is what the Social Justice Coalition has to say. They were a principal organization fighting for the Commission.

    http://www.sjc.org.za/posts/minister-of-police-and-saps-appeal-to-constitutional-court-to-stop-oreganpikoli-inquiry-wasteful-abuse-of-public-money

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    So when will anybody, including the author, attempt to explain how it is “Constitutional” to deploy the SANDF to suppress a popular revolt. Isn’t that a bit like …hmm the Soviet republic of Romania? Or just like regular military coups in banana republic DRC? or just like Apartheid South Africa?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Zille requests deployment of SANDF in WCape farm areas

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=343559&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    I’m still waiting.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    sirjay jonson
    February 4, 2013 at 21:02 pm

    Thanks Sirjay – hopefully that will put to rest that the arguments around how this CoI came to be.

    You still owe me an explanation of why you think the Richard Wilkinson piece, “The many confusions of Pierre de Vos”, is not plain nonsense (see link in postman February 4, 2013 at 17:01 pm) or at least which parts of that you find sensible.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, whilst I agree that Mr Wilkinson has written a lot of nonsense, he seems spot on in identifying a vast gulf between ANC and DA policies in one respect. The DA believes in CAPITALISM. By contrast, the ANC is fundamentally committed to SOCIALISM.

    In the long term.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 4, 2013 at 22:34 pm

    “By contrast, the ANC is fundamentally committed to SOCIALISM.”

    LOL. I can hear that 18 000 000 ZAR Buffalo bull bellowing against the African winds.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    “Unlike the ANC, DA provincial governments would reform African customary law and transfer land and power away from the chiefs and to the people.”

    LOL.

    That is even funnier than the other one.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 4, 2013 at 22:34 pm

    Dworky,

    “The DA believes in CAPITALISM. By contrast, the ANC is fundamentally committed to SOCIALISM.”

    Where does the sword-making guy say that?

    But “the DA’s open opportunity society” makes a lot of sense – whatever does it mean?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. WDYSTT?

    So, on paper, the parties could not be more different with respect to policy./i>

    On paper, eh.

    Where De Vos might have had a point is if he had said that, after being elected into provincial government, the DA has not implemented these policies to the fullest possible extent.

    hahahahaha.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 5, 2013 at 6:36 am

    Maggs – how do you and Dmwangi feel about the [whitish] DA “reforming” those primitive African customary laws. It looks like first the DA took on LABOUR and now they want to take on King Goodwill and the Zulu nation too.

    Do you think the African people will embrace these white customary laws, or will they need to call in the SANDF again?

  • Brett Nortje

    So you agree that 3/4 of the country should perpetually be stuck in the 18th Century crying ‘we are suffering!’; blaming those nasty mhlungus for taking the land breaking the agricultural backbone of the country made up by black peasant farmers taking vegetables to market by oxcart? (Which somehow they could not replicate in the tribal homelands the Brits gave them?)

    While the population triples every 30 years?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    February 5, 2013 at 9:20 am

    Blue Boy,

    Sometimes you say really stupid things, at other times even more stupid things.

    HFT will I know how Dmwangi feels?

    Anyway – I dunno what you’re on about re SANDF.

    Be a good boy and go play with yourself.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    February 5, 2013 at 9:29 am

    “So you agree that 3/4 of the country should perpetually be stuck in the 18th Century crying ‘we are suffering!’; blaming those nasty mhlungus for taking the land breaking the agricultural backbone of the country made up by black peasant farmers taking vegetables to market by oxcart? (Which somehow they could not replicate in the tribal homelands the Brits gave them?)

    While the population triples every 30 years?”

    Brett. I think it is an issue of democracy and mutual respect. I have tried to explain those concepts to you before but just like maggs you are a little bit dof. For you the only thing worth respecting is British culture. You don’t have the RIGHT to tell other people, especially the majority, how to think or how to behave. Neither are you in any sort of position of power to do so. It is called paternalism, it is the essence of colonialist racism – when are you and your fellow White liberals ever going to get that into your fukcing heads?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “Where does the sword-making guy say that?”

    Doesn’t the intrepid sword-welder somewhere contradict PdV’s ridiculous claim that there is little difference between the policies of ANC and DA?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs, here is the sentence in Wilkinson’s piece I thought was dead right:

    “[T]he policy differences between the DA and ANC (even after accounting for the National Development Plan) are frankly too numerous to mention.”

  • Brett Nortje

    Dear chump

    What on earth makes you think I am in love with the culture of the British Imperialists who put my Irish greatgrandmother in one of their deathcamps with her babies and contrived that the first thing my grandfather would see as he was lifted from the oxwagon he was born in in 1904 was home – a farm razed to the ground?

    Are you kidding?

    I agree with you about the paternalism of telling black people to modernise, which the huge bulk have absolutely no intention of doing! What can I say?

    Missionary zeal? Or is that how one negotiates the external environment one is willing or wishful to live in? Communication?
    Of course, you are the stereotypical Afrikaner who lays down the law to his family so you would know nothing about negotiating with other public in ones external environment – you simply tell them how it is going to be, right?

    There is only one solution left, and that is S235.

    Blue Ozone says:
    February 5, 2013 at 10:17 am
    You don’t have the RIGHT to tell other people, especially the majority, how to think or how to behave. Neither are you in any sort of position of power to do so. It is called paternalism

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 5, 2013 at 10:27 am

    This is what irritated me the most. Such shrill neoliberal propaganda.

    “Mugabe, Castro and the North Koreans and align our foreign policy with governments that support human rights.”

    It is a bit like comparing Hitler and Mother Teressa.

    The DA must still come clean on here they stand on using the SANDF to suppress democracy or the grotesque human rights abuses committed by the Zionist state of Israel (perhaps some sponsors) even as we speak and stop complaining about the thousands of selfless Cuban doctors that is saving our “health system” from total collapse.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 5, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Ja Dworky,

    “[T]he policy differences between the DA and ANC (even after accounting for the National Development Plan) are frankly too numerous to mention.”

    But sword-guy does say that in practice there is very little difference (with excuses of course).

    IOW (sorry but I gotta use the banned word “duck” again even though this is a family log) – it looks like an ANC-duck, it walks like an ANC-duck, it quacks like an ANC-duck so it must be a DA-duck!

    p.s. BTW re “accounting for NDP” – I’m thinking that “struggle accounting” will suffice. WDYSTT?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Blueish Guy

    “The grotesque human rights abuses committed by the Zionist state of Israel …”

    BG, there is no such thing as a Zionist “state.” The correct term is “Illegal Zionist Entity” (“IZE”).

    Please remember that going forward.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 5, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Dworky I’m always impressed by what political parties say they will do even though in practice the don’t do it or do other thing.

    COPE for example was gonna “defend our Constitution” – they’ll get round to that when they work out the, er, policy differences between the head-honchos.

    IFP was gonna – oh shucks what was the IFP gonna do – they’ll think of something.

    The DA was gonna bring back the death-penalty and make Black people pay three-times the property rates which WHITE people pay; make shooting children playing in the field a national sport for scary Aryan-looking guys; issue visas for educational refugees from the EC; issue single-use- sex-vouchers to limit HIV-transmission; and some other novel stuff.

    The ANC was gonna create a better life for all after we all work together to do more; build a truly non-racial society by making WHITE people equally poor; banning hair-straighteners; shipping off all the dogs to Thailand; making it law to knock over-gays who stand in front of us and some other interesting thingies.

    The ID was gonna make all Coloured people WHITE by invading the DA.

    Rajbansi was gonna make wig-wearing, bunny-chow eating a national sport but he died before that could be achieved.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “[Wilkinson] does say that in practice there is very little difference [between DA and ANC.]

    With respect, this is nonsense. Everyone knows that the Western Cape is beset by corruption, overrun with squalid shacks, policed by brutish cops, served by the grossly underpaid, and stinks with uncovered toilets! By contrast …

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 5, 2013 at 11:16 am

    Thank you Dworky,

    “With respect, this is nonsense.”

    That’s about where I started – the Wilkinson piece is nonsense.

  • Brett Nortje

    LOL! Maggs die witbroodjie….

    No-one likes teacher’s pet.

    Pretty desperate change-agent, if you ask me. To come up with crap like
    “The DA was gonna bring back the death-penalty and make Black people pay three-times the property rates which WHITE people pay; make shooting children playing in the field a national sport for scary Aryan-looking guys; issue visas for educational refugees from the EC; issue single-use- sex-vouchers to limit HIV-transmission; and some other novel stuff.”

    Looking for a new paymaster, Maggs?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 5, 2013 at 11:27 am

    Ja Goofy,

    “Looking for a new paymaster, Maggs?”

    I’m bored – only soft-targets here!

    Any suggestions?

  • Brett Nortje

    You could go sell samoosas….

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Or I could sing!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iASjS5EGpio&feature=player_embedded#!

    p.s. Real samoosas are too valuable to sell. But if you want spinach and feta, sweet corn and mayo, honey and cabbage … we can talk.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “That’s about where I started – the Wilkinson piece is nonsense.”

    Coincidentally, Maggs, that is where I started too. You and I agree with Mr Wilkinson in ONE respect only: as to the vast gulf between ANC and DA’s fundamental economic policy. We all know that the DA believes in CAPITALISM; by contrast, the ANC is fundamentally committed to SOCIALISM!

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 5, 2013 at 11:35 am

    “Real samoosas are too valuable to sell.”

    LOL. The DA thinks all you Indians, you Gupta’s are in fact arrogant trying to sell newspapers instead of samoosas or bunny chows. You should know your proper place – which is in fact back in India.

    “The Guptas: A tale of two empires
    Andrew Donaldson
    02 February 2013

    Andrew Donaldson says the one created a great civilisation, the other brought us … The New Age

    THE Gupta empire, it’s written, spanned much of the Indian subcontinent from about 320 to 550 CE. A peaceful, prosperous civilisation, it brought together advancements in science, architecture, philosophy, religion, art and literature to form what is now considered Hindu culture.

    The game of chess was said to have originated here, as did the world’s first base ten numerical system. During this time it was also first proposed that the earth was not flat but round and rotated about its own axis. Thanks to the Guptas’ beneficence, the scholar Vatsyayana, fired by stirrings in the trousers department, wrote the Kama Sutra, the well-known knobbing manual.

    Those Guptas, of course, are not to be confused with the lot currently based in the Johannesburg suburb of Saxonwold. All they’ve given us thus far is The New Age, a newspaper of unswerving devotion to the ruling party. In return for its grovelling ovine fealty, the publication has, at least according to Helen Zille, been handsomely rewarded, and it is not surprising that the Western Cape premier has called for a judicial inquiry into its affairs.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=354858&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    Well at least long, long time ago in ancient India there were some good cool … erm.. Guptas.

  • Jeffman

    To answer the question, the ANC seems to believe that anything implemented by the DA must be opposed simply because it is the DA and regardless of it’s merits. They are motivated by blind hatred of the DA and the fact that they have been rejected by the voters of the Western cape.

  • Brett Nortje

    What it is is envy politics. The Iron Ladies do everything so well while everything that the ANC leadership touches turns to shyte.

    Consider how Antie Pat handled the appointment of a DA councillor to the CoCT’s payroll compared the way the ANC appointed 17 losing candidates in the last local government elections to the City (which has failed another audit) of Johannesburg’s staff.

    Everyone watch Carte Blanche’s expose of Friend of Ehrenreich Nosey Parker?

    Everyone watch Carte Blanche on Nosey Parker last night?

    Everyone watch Carte Blanche last night? OBS?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Jeffman, you are probably right. But you must bear in mind that our people will generally always support ANC because they know that, although ANC is currently on a detour into acquisitive capitalism — which is necessary to TRANSFORM the middle class — the medium and long-term trajectory of ANC is SOCIALISM, just as promised in the Freedom Charter!

  • Zoo Keeper

    Professor

    Zille has to have a reason to appoint a commission of inquiry – otherwise its very existence will be challengeable.

    “(buckling under sustained pressure from civil society groups)”

    Hardly – it is the very basis of the commission without which she could not proceed.

    Do you not think for one minute the DA would pass up an opportunity to set up a commission of inquiry into a national (and therefore ANC) entity?

    Should a commissi

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 5, 2013 at 16:12 pm

    That is much much, much better. Or did you bump your head getting out of bed this morning?

    Viva mfd! Viva!

    A luta continua.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    February 5, 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Racist Blue Boy,

    “Well at least long, long time ago in ancient India there were some good cool … erm.. Guptas.”

    India is always ancient!

    And it’s even better now that the modern Guptas were exported.

    Now what do you say to this – can we get some equity here?

    Johannesburg – White beggars in South Africa earn between R50 and R500 a day, the trade union Solidarity said on Tuesday.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/white-beggars-earn-r50-r500-per-day-1.1464701#.URFDz_LjBOw

  • Brett Nortje

    In their dreams, Maggs.

    The old lady I speak to who lives in Coronation Park told me last Saturday the previous weekend she made R6.

  • joeslis

    Blue Ozone

    “A luta continua.”

    Com certeza! Entretanto, a pilhagem continua furiosamente.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 5, 2013 at 20:14 pm

    Hmmm!

    So Professor Zuma’s plan to get WHITE people to be as poor as Black people is working.

  • Brett Nortje

    What you have to ask yourself is in who in SOuth Africa’s interests it is for one white South African to have one cent less in his pocket?

    I know you’d be hard put to find someone who is economically literate in the ANC, but, do you think this features in anyone in Luthuli House’s thinking?

    Can there be a more obvious example of the rampant generalised obtuseness in your favourite organisations than its efforts to cull the taxbase? LOLOL!

    I would be very surprised if there is one adult in Coronation Park who has not been an employer during his/her lifetime. A taxpayer.

    Beeld ran an article a couple of days ago noting a sharp drop in the demand for domestics. I am pleased, but in whose interests is it? How many families have survived off domestic work?

    The ANC are one fukkedup bunch of illiterates.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OB

    “Viva mfd! Viva!”

    Thanks very much. But we still need to know when you are going to apologise for referring to the Illegal Zionist Entity (“IZE”), as a “state.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 5, 2013 at 20:55 pm

    So G,

    “Beeld ran an article a couple of days ago noting a sharp drop in the demand for domestics.”

    If White people are getting as poor as is being reported (including by you) how come we rarely see White “domestics”?

    Anyway – the grand plans that we have in the glorious NDP should solve all.

    Let’s see – it goes like this. To create more jobs we need more enterprises including the fancy “beneficiation”.

    That should work – except to achieve anything meaningful the demand for electricity will increase. But Eishkom can’t meet present demand.

    Our road, rail and harbours are struggling – so maybe the helipads are a great idea.

    Eish!

    p.s. Eskom says it needs more funding from consumers to meet it’s capital and operational needs. But then they go on a drive telling us to reduce consumption, in effect reducing their income – it’s another brilliant strategy to raise more money, isn’t it?

  • Brett Nortje

    Been speaking to your friend the Sheriff again?

    Tell me about Valli Moosa (LOL! No, this is not another food-sales joke.) and the beneficiation of diamonds?

    Hey, Maggot, did you see your guys have run Pretoria into the ground? Can’t cover salaries. LOL!

    JHB is next.

  • Brett Nortje

    I would love to see whites working as domestics for other whites and as bijwoners on their farms.

    Can you imagine what it would do to the homicide rate?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Goofy,

    Johannesburg has got a surplus, according to reports.

    BTW – this is gonna be an interesting case – Moseneke asked how a municipality’s customer could be held so strictly in terms of a contract to pay for, for example, water, if they had not received it for six months.

    What happened to a municipality that was in breach of its own contractual obligation to actually provide the water, he asked.

    Claasen said ratepayers should make an application to the courts against the municipality, and not withhold their money.

    Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng commented that the court’s decision would have a profound effect on the approach to service provision in the country, the failure to pay for services, and protests related to service delivery.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/concourt-hears-rates-dispute-1.1464557

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, on any given day there are 60 000 potential applicants for damages in an action for pain and suffering due to stress and mental anguish over the Billing Crisis.

    The City has just failed another audit.

    Last year late the President sent Deputy Minister Obed Bapela on a fact-finding mission to JHB. On the same day the ANC council told him the Billing Crisis was over and there were no outstanding complaints the media published a number of 66 000 outsanding complaints.

    Dodgy!

  • Brett Nortje

    BTW, read the SCA judgement if you can. More executive-minded than the Executive!

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Link to the SCA judgement?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Brett Nortje
    February 5, 2013 at 21:22 pm

    “I would love to see whites working as domestics for other whites and as bijwoners on their farms.”

    I believe that doesn’t happen because inter-class prejudice is usually much stronger than inter-race prejudice. So there are two things happening here. The poor white women will not apply for a job because of the overwhelming sense of shame, and the well-off white will not hire a poor white woman because of a deeply felt class alienation i.e. they don’t want “white trash” working with their kids. As PdV has asserted “poor whites” are poor only because of some incorrigible character flaws.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 5, 2013 at 19:56 pm

    Thanks maggs. I feel solidarity with them.

    Now here is something different for you.

    Why I joined AfriForum

    “I want to encourage our black Africans to fight against new discrimination in our country. During the struggle against apartheid, there were many compatriots from minority groups who joined forces against the apartheid regime.

    Amongst others, these include Helen Suzman, Neville Alexander, Ahmed Kathrada, Beyers Naude and Bram Fischer. We should all be appalled with the way the ANC’s policies have led to an increment in poverty amongst our people. Are we going to do nothing when the government lacks political will to prevent farm murders? The plundering and looting of our resources by a few of the ANC’s aligned elite requires us to engage in a new struggle. Aluta continua!”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=355366&sn=Detail&pid=71619

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Eish – what a fucking moron this Zama Khumalo!

    Katherine Shaddock was shocked when she logged on to Facebook to find that plans were being made to celebrate the death of her half-sister in the Westdene Dam disaster 28 years ago.

    Zama Khumalo had told his 493 Facebook friends he would be sending out invitations to a “Big Black Braai” to celebrate that 42 white children died when their school bus plunged into the Johannesburg dam in 1985.

    Khumalo, 24, who claims to be promoting a “black superiority complex”, said the braai would be on the anniversary of the disaster, March 27, and that there would be DJs and fireworks .

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/02/06/facebook-racist-opens-wounds

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 6, 2013 at 6:34 am

    I don’t care if he is a “moron” maggs.

    What he is saying is not out of line with what Andile Mngxitama said and we are yet to hear one single peep form anybody, including of course our White liberals.

    Not even Afriforum or Solidarity, neither Genocide Watch took any interest in Andile fantasies about an apocalyptic future for whites which Andile says we know are coming our way. And as I said – Andile is in a position of influence and his SAFHR receives sponsorship from rather influential places, including the SA government.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    February 6, 2013 at 7:53 am

    Blue Boy,

    It’s silly to compare Andile with the moronic Zama Khumalo.

    Andile has as much right to express his views as FNB to their.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. You can compare Khumalo to Dmwangi – maybe they are the same person!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 6, 2013 at 8:25 am

    Correct. And I have as much right to express my views, but even when I’m posting under a pseudonym that doesn’t give me the right to advocate for genocide of anyone. It shows us exactly where we are at this junction in time, that such racial hatred can be expressed by someone of the stature of Andile with so little public contention.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ BO et Maggs

    Just to let you know I may be organising a march on the French consulate to protest the IMPERIALIST aggression in Mali. What has happened to the principle of AFRICAN SOLUTIONS FOR AFRICAN PROBLEMS?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    February 6, 2013 at 8:58 am

    Blue Boy,

    “And I have as much right to express my views”

    Not really.

    But my atheism derives from a simple observation – no god would have been so cruel as to invent WHITE people.

    WDYSTT?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    February 6, 2013 at 9:20 am

    So then you believe like Andile, it would be better to perhaps wipe out white people? Or perhaps just chase them into the sea like Idi Amin did in Uganda.

    That is quite nazy and might result in some very negative karma for you.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “no god would have been so cruel as to invent WHITE people.”

    With respect, Maggs, you are being naive. Just read the following:

    “The Blackman is the Original Man. From him came all brown, yellow, red, and the WHITISH people. By using a special method of birth-control law, the Blackman was able to produce WHITISM. This method of birth control was developed by a Black scientist known as Yakub, who envisioned making and teaching a nation of WHITISH people (“blue-eyed devils”), who would be diametrically opposed to the Original People. A Race of people who would one day rule the Original People and the earth for a period of 6,000 years. Yakub promised his followers that he would graft a nation from his own people, and he would teach them how to rule his people through a system of WHITISH tricks and lies whereby they use deceit to divide and conquer, and break the unity of the darker people, put one brother against another, and then act as mediators and rule both sides.” (Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Blackman in America, Muhammad’s Temple No. 2, 1965 & Dorothy Blake Fardan, Yakub and the Origins of White Supremacy, Lushena Books, 2001)

    Thanks

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    February 6, 2013 at 9:26 am

    Blue Boy,

    “So then you believe like Andile, it would be better to perhaps wipe out white people?”

    Hmmm!

    Not really.

    But perhaps MLK Jr had a point when he implied “I have a dream that one day there will be no WHITE people”.

    Or Einstein “Generations to come, it may well be, will scarce believe that a WHITE man ever in flesh and blood walked upon this Earth.”

    Or Seinfeld in BEE Movie “honey slaves to the white man!”

    WDYSTT?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 6, 2013 at 9:29 am

    Dworky,

    Shut up – I’m having a serious discussion with Ozone fellow!

    BTW who said this of the WHITE man – Idi Amin? Dingaan? Dmwangi? Ejijah? Gandhi? Brother Leader?

    “I consider my Holding that appointment by leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the [WHITE] Race upon whom the stain of the late cruelties rested; and that I begged them to do me the favour to observe that I was there for that purpose and no other, and was now proceeding, with all convenient dispatch and merciful swiftness of execution, to blot it out of mankind and raze it off the face of the earth.”

  • Peter Vos

    Prof De Vos’ columns are generally worth reading as are many of the relevant comments. Why do we have to scroll through the usually irrelevant, often puerile and always long-winded, interminable rantings of Blue Ozone, Naidu and Fassbinder to get to them? Can’t you trolls get together on a private forum?

  • Jeffman

    @ fassbinder

    Clearly ‘your’ people are not my people, nor are they the majority in the Western Cape!
    Isn’t the Freedom charter an outdated irrelevant communist pipe dream anyway?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Peter Vos

    ” … long-winded, interminable rantings of Blue Ozone, Naidu … Can’t you trolls get together on a private forum?”

    Well said, Peter! I have long argued that those who do not wish to make a substantive contribution to our debate about topical matters in constitutional law issues should form their own “satellite” blog. PdV could post link for those few interested in the collateral discourse.

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Jeffman
    February 6, 2013 at 11:04 am

    So you reject the nonracial “pipe dreams” of the Freedom Charter?

    Much like Andile Mngxitama. Perhaps you deserve each other.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Jeffman

    “Isn’t the Freedom charter an outdated irrelevant communist pipe dream anyway?”

    You may believe that. But the point is that there are stark difference between the DA and the ANC, insofar as the latter remains, in principle, devoted to SOCIALISM, albeit in the long, long term. (This is also the visson of the CP of the PRC; state capitalism is only a means to the end of growing the economy so that, one day, the pie will be so big that that radical redistribution will yield prosperity for all.)

    If that were not so, I am fear that Wilkinson would be wrong, and Pierre would be right, in saying that the ANC and DA form a broad centrist bloc in our politics, and the struggles of many who fought for a radically different economic model would have been in vain.

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    vission = fission

  • Another frustrated reader

    @ Peter Vos……..you are quite correct of course but you do need to consider that the people you mention appear to devote their entire waking lives to this site. Rather sad actually. Without this activity how will they fill their days?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Frustrated

    “people [who] appear to devote their entire waking lives to this site”

    Can’t speak for Maggs and OB, but I view it as a privilege, not a burden, to
    educate the public about constitutional law and matters related thereto. Perhaps you and Peter Vos should consider making more than an occasional contribution!

    Thanks.

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Another frustrated reader says:
    February 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm
    Perhaps we should be more sympathetic to the stomme bliksems. As you say, they devote their entire waking lives to this site.

  • Colin

    Mrs Zille is rather selective with exactly what she wants the Commission to do. Why not include the City’s Metro Police Division for investigation? I was brutally assaulted by a Metro cop prior to a meeting addressed by Zille as then Mayor. She became aware of the matter but did nothing about it. Then, an overzealous Metro cop went on a shooting spree after an armed robbery but only ended up shooting the wrong guy. I understand the City settled this case out of Court for R1million plus but, the settlement details were never made public. Why are certain politicians so disingenuous with the facts? You cannot manipulate the system to suit your own political agenda!

  • Brett Nortje

    I understand they’re getting a fanclub underway for Anton Kleinschmidt….

    Another frustrated reader says:
    February 6, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    “Without this activity how will they fill their days?”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    February 6, 2013 at 13:57 pm

    Lol G,

    Well spotted.

    @ Peter Vos – February 6, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Let’s see, there’s a whole host of issues in addition to the blog post. There are issues of law, politics, racism, oversensitivity to race, humour, social issues, governance, corruption and and and.

    But you choose to reflect on …

    Not that I know anything about it, but if I did know anything about the Rorschach test then I would conclude (thanks Minister Blade) that you’re not quite right upstairs – but as I say, I can’t quite conclude that cos I dunno about all this intriguing stuff.

    Dmwangi will explain.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    February 6, 2013 at 13:18 pm

    Dworky,

    Leave AK alone and help me resolve the dilemma that Peter Vos finds himself in.

    It’s 100 years since the infamous Land Act.

    As we all know that act was to keep out the dastardly Blacks, those like you, Blue Racist Boy and me – you know the kind that don’t know how to behave properly in public spaces, lack web etiquette, social graces, respect for other people …

    So PV to celebrate that important legal history, has a great plan – create cyberstans to house you lot, far away from public view, where you will not ever be seen or heard from ever again. His granny really did create the internet.

    Not that Peter Vos is the modern day equivalent of Verwoerd, Smuts and the like, it’s just that – eish, I lie he’s got the same mindset!

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, I’m taking Enuus to the BCCSA over Freek’s misrepresentation of the 1913 Land Act on Monday night.

    Stay off the list, bud!

  • Maggs Naidu

    Lol G,

    I’ll trade you all rights to the Land Act if you allow Peter Vos to colonise cyberspace and create cyberstans.

    WDYS?

  • Zamandaba Sibiya

    Quite frankly I think government has completely lost the plot, they are overly defensive and offended by the slightest of complaint of their effectiveness. I see no valid reason why this commission was not allowed?

    Surely there must be something wrong where theres a place still with an alarming number of mob violence incidents, high reported drug use and crimes of all sorts, you would think Mthethwa’s people would welcome this move and start working for the people that elect them loyally.

    This was utterly disgraceful and disappointing considering we live a democratic state where government is meant to be transparent.

  • Truth

    “By rushing to Court and failing to co-operate with a Commission legally appointed by the Premier in terms of the powers granted to her by the Constitution itself, the Minister is in breach of his constitutional obligations to assist and support the Premier and to avoid legal proceedings against the Provincial government.”

    This is preposterous, how can one breach the constitution by going to court! Are you saying that the powers of the premier to appoint a Commission are beyond legal scrutiny? The minister is well within his rights to question the legality of the Commission. Just because certain issues seem obvious to you, it does not make them beyond the court’s scrutiny. Even if the minister is wrong in his interpretation, it is legally unsound and sensationalist to hold that he has breached the constitution by seeking legal recourse.

  • Colin

    Why has nobody responded to my comment of 6 Feb? The Commission of Enquiry must include the sins of the City’s Metro Police and Law Enforcement Units. A case of selective ignorance?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    As South Africans decry the scourge of rape, a three-year-old Limpopo girl has become a victim of sexual assault. She was allegedly raped by a relative.

    In Scottsville, Cape Town, a 21-year-old man was arrested on Saturday.
    “I can confirm that a murder and rape case is under investigation by the Kraaifontein police after the body of a 19-year-old woman was found yesterday afternoon at 3pm in the drawer of a bed,” said police spokesman Lieutenant-Colonel Andrè Traut.

    On Thursday, a 69-year-old grandmother was raped in Thaleni village, near Dutywa. Her alleged attacker was found sleeping in her bed.

    On Saturday, a 44-year-old man was arrested for the rape of a 21-year-old disabled woman in Sinqumeni village, also near Dutywa.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/02/11/outrage—but-rape-goes-on

  • Colin

    It is common cause and not in dispute that the Western Cape has no borders and is not a federal state situated on the periphery of our country. It is one of the nine provinces that forms part of the democratic South Africa and it is illegal for it to operate in isolation from the rest of our country.

    Certain segments of the media have fallen over themselves to report on the DA’s Commission of Enquiry that Zille established in Khayelitsha recently.

    As the matter is currently before the Constitutional Court and, therefore, sub judice, I cannot speak specifically on the case itself but will on another matter indirectly linked to it.

    In 2006, shortly after Zille became Mayor, I recall seeing a photo of her standing with her pale feet on a tattered mattress as if she was championing the cause of the poor. This followed her promise to a group of homeless people from Zilleraine Heights (ironically named after her) that she would include them in a pilot project in Grassy Park (not Pelican Park). It is common cause that she has since evicted these people who are basically waiting to be shipped out, apartheid style, to one of the many DA temporary relocation areas (on the outskirts of the City that works for you).

    I received a mandate to represent these people at a meeting with Zille on Human Rights Day in 2006, i.e. today, 7 years ago.

    I did not make that meeting as one of her law enforcement officers brutally assaulted me in the presence of an MP and an Advocate of The High Court.

    At this DA meeting where I was assaulted on Human Rights Day, Zille’s followers shouted the following, inter alia, at me:

    “You deserve it, you fucking cunt”;

    Also in 2006, while he was on official business with Zille, her DA Cllr, Derek Smith, called me a FUCKING CUNT in public – not once, but thrice.

    What does this have to do with the Khayelitsha “Commission of Enquiry”?

    You see, Madam Zille cannot be selective in what she wants the Commission to investigate.

    The Commission must also investigate the conduct of her troops, the City’s Metro Police and Law Enforcement Divisions.

    What is that Zille/the DA want to hide from us?

    Is it the illegal brutal assault on me on Human Rights Day?

    Is it the illegal shooting of an innocent male victim caught up in a botched armed robbery and where a moron, operating as a Metro cop, illegally and wrongly shot an innocent person? Does she want to hide the R1million+ out of Court payment that the DA’s “City that works for you” was ordered to pay the victim by the Cape High Court?

    Does she want to hide the incompetent moron operating as a politician who swaggers around whenever a “Metro” raid takes place? He swaggers so much that a case that her DA Metro cops opened against an innocent family on the Cape Flats collapsed a day after the raid when the DPP refused to prosecute as there was no case to answer. Nobody can “plant evidence”, like in the apartheid era, and expect it to stand up in Court. I would love to know what that other Madam, Kohler-Barnard, has to say about this alleged “evidence planting” seeing she wakes up the world whenever she mutters whatever it is that she mutters about the National SAPS on a daily basis.

    So here we are, on Human Rights Day again, where the people of Cape Town continue to suffer at the hands of a bunch of morons operating as Metro cops, and whose leader excludes them from being investigated by her own “Commission of Enquiry”.

    What is so “humanly right” about that?

    “See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their molten images are but wind and confusion. Behold, they are all vanity; worthless” – Isaiah 41

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Colin is right. But Zille’s plan to turn WC into a VOLKSTAAT, catering, as Mr Fransman has noted, largely to JEWS and LIBERALS, will surely be dashed when her Desperate Alliance is thrown out next year!

    Thanks.

  • sidneycoadwilliams

    THE MEDIA REPORTS ABOUT INCOMPETENT POLICE OFFICIALS AND ALLEGED CORRUPT POLICE OFFICIALS WHO SUCCUMB TO TEMPTATION BY ALLEGEDLY SOLICITING BRIBES IS DISCONCERTING TO SAY THE LEAST. COMPETENCY MUST BE RELEVANT TO THE RANK STRUCTURE AND ADEQUATE KNOWLEDGE OF THE VARIOUS LAWS AND PROCEDURES.NOT TO MENTION HONESTY AND CIVILITY. HONESTY CIVILITY AND JOB SPECIFIC COMPETENCE IS VITAL TO ANY OCCUPATION. SOME PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING WHY THERE IS AN APPARENT INEQUITABLE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SENIOR RANKS IN SOUTH AFRICA AND THE RANK STRUCTURE IN OTHER COUNTRIES. MANY EX POLICE OFFICIALS ARE SAYING THAT IN THE PREVIOUS ORDER THERE WAS ONE GENERAL AND HE WAS THE COMMISSIONER OF POLICE BUT TODAY GENERALS APPEAR TO BE PROLIFIC. THEY SAY COMPARE THE RANK STRUCTURES IN SOUTH AFRICA WITH POLICE RANK STRUCTURES IN OTHER COUNTRIES AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.