Constitutional Hill

Why is the DA government advocating lawlessness?

Power does funny things to people. A communist who becomes a Minister suddenly believes he has a right – at tax payer’s expense – to be driven around in a million Rand limousine and to stay at the luxurious Mount Nelson Hotel, probably the most colonial of Hotels in Africa. Democratic Alliance (DA) leaders who squeal day and night about the flouting of the Rule of Law by the ANC suddenly blithely advocate lawlessness on the part of law enforcement officers when they become MEC’s.

The latest victim of this kind of power-sickness is a man named Robin Carlisle, the Transport and Public Works MEC for the DA Western Cape government. Carlisle has instructed law enforcement officers to pull over drivers and, if they are believed to be fatigued, to confiscate their car keys to force them to rest. The problem is that there is no law that empowers law enforcement officers to detain drivers in this way and to confiscate their car keys.

When asked about whether it was legal to confiscate the car keys of drivers, Carlisle said: “I have no idea, but I don’t care either… We have got no option but to pull out all the stops, whether illegal or legal… I just don’t know what else to do than to become very rough.”

It might well be that tired drivers pose a danger to other motorists and to themselves. If there was an accurate method to test drivers for fatigue (which, I suspect, there is not) and if there was an empowering law that allowed officers to limit the right to movement of ordinary citizens in this manner, Carlisle’s idea might have been worth exploring.

The problem is there is no law that empowers this kind of behaviour, so Carlisle is brazenly admitting that he has instructed law enforcement officers to break the law. This is the very law that officers are supposed to uphold, the law that limits the powers of law enforcement officers in order to protect citizens from the potential abuse of power by those who can so easily lord it over the rest of us because they wear a uniform.

What Carlisle is in effect saying is that there is one set of rules and principles that should apply to the ANC government and another set that should apply to the DA government. When the ANC flouts the law, it is the end of civilization as we know it. When the DA instructs law enforcement officers to flout the law they should be cheered on because the DA could be trusted to flout the law only if it is in our collective interest.

What makes it worse is that Carlisle has not issued any guidelines to protect ordinary citizens against the abuse of power that will inevitably flow from this unlawful instruction. In the absence of legally imposed guidelines to direct the exercise of such a drastic and invasive discretion by law enforcement officials, it is inevitable that some motorists will become victims of arbitrary harassment by officers, who – let’s face it – are not known for their wisdom and their deep respect for the rights of others.

Who is going to protect innocent motorists from the possible power-hungry or insecure traffic cops out there? Who will make sure that traffic cops will use this power fairly and will not target motorists based on their race, class or gender? In almost all cases it will be impossible to determine with accuracy whether a driver is fatigued or not. This means that if Carlisle gets his way, a traffic cop will be able to stop anyone and confiscate that person’s car keys because the traffic cop says so.

Although not posing the same degree of danger than statements by politicians and police leaders to “shoot the bastards” (“bastards” who might or might not turn out to be criminals), the principle remains the same. This is the thing with principles: one has to stick to them. If one applies a different set of principles to oneself than one applies to one’s opponents, one will rightly be called a hypocrite. Apart from the hypocrisy, it is also deeply illiberal. The DA is supposed to be a liberal party, so when one of its MEC’s advocate the brazen flouting of the Rule of Law, this raises serious questions about the party’s commitment to liberal values.

And make no mistake, the larger issue here is the absence of respect for the Rule of Law. Carlisle is advocating lawlessness, which flouts one of the most important provisions in our Constitution. One of the founding values set out in section 1 of the Constitution is respect for the Rule of Law. A fundamental part of the Rule of Law is the principle that public power cannot be exercised if it is not authorised by law.

There are very good reasons for this. If law enforcement officers were empowered to use their discretion to invade our privacy, to limit our freedom of movement and to do as they please – even when they are not authorised to do so by any law – a message is sent that they are not bound by ordinary laws, that they are allowed to take short cuts to get results and that the rights of ordinary citizens do not count. It sends a signal that the means used can justify the ends even if those means are unlawful.

This is a dangerous kind of precedent. I am quite certain that if an ANC MEC had blithely stated that he does not care whether his order was legal or not, the DA would rightly have made a big fuss about it. It is when law enforcement officials are told that they should not worry about whether what they are doing is legal or not – as long as they get results – that we move into the realm of a state in which the very people who must uphold the law are empowered to break the law and to infringe on the rights of citizens for the greater good of all.

This kind of logic leads to the unofficial sanctioning of the torture of innocent people and of unlawful arrest and detention. It leads to an abuse of power. Always. After all, if results are all that matters, then surely we should not worry too much that our law does not empower police officers to torture ordinary citizens as long as the torture lead to the arrest of people who might be criminal suspects.

I don’t want to live in a country where traffic cops think that they can stop me without any good reason and take away my car keys because some cowboy MEC has told them to ignore the law. Helen Zille should immediately take action against MEC Carlisle who is bringing her administration into disrepute and creating the impression that the DA government endorses lawlessness. Quite frankly, I would feel much safer if Carlisle is fired forthwith. If no action is taken we will know that Zille, too, does not respect the Rule of Law when it suits her and when a few votes could be won by flouting it.

  • Blue Ozone

    Zille requests deployment of SANDF in WCape farm areas

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=343559&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    Still no comment. Why?

  • Gwebecimele

    Is the President thinking of Mcdonald, Lonmin and other foreign interests???

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/zuma-warns-against-foreign-control-of-sa-1.1437995

  • malcolm
  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Eish – what a wanker!

    “I have no idea, but I don’t care either… We have got no option but to pull out all the stops, whether illegal or legal… I just don’t know what else to do than to become very rough.”

  • http://www.themarineengineer.com jeff owen

    Thanks for this article. I am an old fashioned Helen Suzman Progressive. Has this article been sent to the DA. Right address for some quick action and retraction. Appreciate your input. Could not share with DA on FB?

    Regards,

    Jeff.

  • Blue Ozone

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!
    December 10, 2012 at 12:49 pm

    So I guess they will get the COLOUREDS twice now. Once for protesting about a living wage and once for driving after consuming the wages in kind.

  • Zoo Keeper

    I agree Prof.

    Never a good idea when the securocrats find ways to make their jobs easier. Maybe there’s some common ground between you and Brett?

    Helen Zille has popped up here before, hopefully she’ll do us the courtesy of chatting about this too?

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Prof De Vos writes:

    “The latest victim of this kind of power-sickness is a man named Robin Carlisle, the Transport and Public Works MEC for the DA Western Cape government. Carlisle has instructed law enforcement officers to pull over drivers and, if they are believed to be fatigued, to confiscate their car keys to force them to rest. The problem is that there is no law that empowers law enforcement officers to detain drivers in this way and to confiscate their car keys.”

    Prof De Vos, I believe you owe Mr Carlisle an apology. Such action by traffic officers are mandated by National Road traffic Act 93 of 1996. Section 31 reads:

    “Powers and duties of traffic officer
    In addition to the powers and duties conferred upon him or her or under this Act, a traffic officer may, subject to the provisions of this Act or any other law-

    (f) if a person, being the driver or the person apparently in charge of a motor vehicle, appears, by reason of his or her physical or mental condition, howsoever arising, to be incapable for the time being of driving or being in charge of that vehicle, temporarily forbid the person to continue to drive or be in charge of that vehicle and make the arrangements for the safe disposal or placing of the vehicle as in his or her opinion may be necessary or desirable in the circumstances . . .”

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    ‘action are” should read “actions are”

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Interesting Chris, I hope we get a response from Pierre so that we can have a balanced discussion.

  • Brett Nortje

    Damn. Chris is a traffic court prosecutor. To think I kinda liked his contributions….

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Brett Nortje says:
    December 10, 2012 at 13:54 pm

    God forbid! I’d rather work for UCT than be a traffic prosecutor.

  • Brett Nortje

    Robin Carlisle did say “I have no idea, but I don’t care either… “

  • Brett Nortje

    Anyone feel like a traffic cop joke?

  • Zoo Keeper

    Thanks Chris

    Didn’t know that part of the Act, gotta retract my agreement with the Prof then!

  • Some ouen

    Chris, interesting post. However this comment attributed to Carlisle is unforgivable:

    “I have no idea, but I don’t care either… We have got no option but to pull out all the stops, whether illegal or legal…”

    Whether or not Prof Pierre apologises to Carlisle he should still go and look for another job if those words were said by him.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Chris (not the right wing guy!)
    December 10, 2012 at 13:44 pm

    Hey Right-Wing-Guy

    “Such action by traffic officers are mandated by National Road traffic Act 93 of 1996. Section 31 reads:”

    This one????

    http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=70930

  • Blue Ozone

    Zille requests deployment of SANDF in WCape farm areas (continued)

    Bitter legacy of dop system stalks farms

    http://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/bitter-legacy-of-dop-system-stalks-farms-1.1138132

    Foetal alcohol syndrome is on the rise, says study

    “FOETAL alcohol syndrome is ravaging Western Cape farming communities, with hundreds of children affected, research has found.

    That’s according to the preliminary findings of a five-year study, currently in its fourth year, being conducted by UCT, Stellenbosch University, the University of New Mexico in the US, and the Medical Research Council of South Africa (MRC). The areas studied include Wellington, Bonnievale, Robertson, Ashton and Montagu.

    According to the findings, the Western Cape still has the highest incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome worldwide.’

    http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/foetal-alcohol-syndrome-is-on-the-rise-says-study-1.1149361#.UMXT-PlvUVY

    What does liewe Pierrietjie have to say about using the army against “the [poesdronk] poor”.

  • Blue Ozone

    Blue Ozone
    December 10, 2012 at 14:28 pm

    So my question is this to DA and their supporters. What are you good, liberal “nonracial” folks doing about this?

    “According to the findings, the Western Cape still has the highest incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome worldwide.”

    Really – I would love to vote for you but I believe you are a bunch of racist, hypocritical cunts.

  • Hoof_Hearted

    @BO
    Blue Ozone
    December 10, 2012 at 14:28 pm

    Apparently Aunty Hellen wanted to shut down all the shebeens in the Western Cape but she was nearly tarred, feathered and run out of town by the non-racial liberalists ;)

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go! says:
    December 10, 2012 at 14:18 pm

    No, that version you’ve got there was make with a Olivetti typewriter!

    Section 31 of the Act as it reads now was inserted by s. 2 of Act 21 of 1999.

  • Some ouen

    Maggs, presumably it’s in one of the amendments see:

    http://thornton.co.za/resources/National%20Road%20Traffic%20Act%20&%20Regulations.pdf

    Section 3I (3 eye) not 31

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    Foetal alcohol syndrome is the fault of the mother, nobody else.

    Not sure why a political party, of any type, should be responsible for irresponsible motherhood which is an individual choice?

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Some ouen says:
    December 10, 2012 at 15:14 pm

    My apologies, it is 3I and not 31. (Inserted by s. 2 of Act 21 of 1999.)

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Chris (not the right wing guy!)
    December 10, 2012 at 15:09 pm

    Some ouen
    December 10, 2012 at 15:14 pm

    Got it, thanks

    P20 :

    (f) if a person, being the driver or the person apparently in charge of a motor vehicle, appears, by reason of his or her physical or mental condition, howsoever arising, to be incapable for the time being of driving or being in charge of that vehicle, temporarily forbid the person to continue to drive or be in charge of that vehicle and make the arrangements for the safe disposal or placing of the vehicle as in his or her opinion may be necessary or desirable in the circumstances;

    So Robin Carlisle appears, by reason of his or her physical or mental condition, howsoever arising, to be incapable for the time being of being in charge of Transport and Public Works – therefore Zille should make the arrangements for his safe disposal or placing in an institution as in her opinion may be necessary or desirable in the circumstances.

  • Blue Ozone

    Hoof_Hearted
    December 10, 2012 at 14:58 pm

    And how about, at the very least, farmers in the Western Cape paying a decent wage [in cash], instead of blaming it on government for establishing a minimum wage? Surely “minimum wage” is a threshold but nothing stops them from paying more.

    Where is the social investment, what urgent and profound interventions are made to reconstruct the lives of these COLOURED people. I assume it far from being a priority.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    So Carlisle is lucky that Right-Wing-Guy saved his ass. It’s pretty dumb to make rules without checking if those are lawful.

    Be that as it may the DA owes Right-Wing-Guy (aka spoiler, aka party-pooper, aka other bad stuff) lots of dop!

    Pierre on the other hand has done a similar thing as Carlisle – so PdV here’s a something just for you!

    http://rlv.zcache.com/eat_humble_pie_tee_shirts-ra771e834a3244d53a6d5ca5e2bde4416_804gy_512.jpg

  • Graham

    Pierre, we know you start suffering from withdrawal symptoms when you haven’t had a go at the DA for a week or two; but don’t you think that your topic, in the greater scheme of things, is somewhat trivial and tending to be a bit of bottom-of-the-barrel scraping? Its such a bummer when the DA gives you meagre scraps with which to hammer them.
    Clearly, Carlisle is a bit of a doos – his behaviour regarding Chapman’s Peak tolling attests to this – but I don’t think that his cavalier attitude is by extension that of Helen Zille or the DA. The chances are that Ms Zille has already phoned him and given him a good talking-to.
    In any event, Chris points out that Carlisle may well have been within his rights to issue such an edict, even if he himself wasn’t aware of this.
    I suggest you read Friday’s M&G if you really want to understand flagrantly unacceptable political behaviour. There’s enough material there to keep you occupied for 6 months. Their revelations make Carlisle’s “transgression” the equivalent or leaving the toilet seat up.

  • joeslis

    Robin Carlisle is passionate about his job,and he’s just about gatvol with Western Cape’s drivers. With good reason.

    Give the guy a break!

  • Hoof_Hearted

    Blue Ozone
    December 10, 2012 at 15:35 pm

    Jissie BO, I had no idea that giving “those COLOURED people” more money would result in them consuming less cheap pap-sak hey. Do you think the same would be true for poor HONKEYS and CHAROUS ? (although the way some people carry on, you’d swear there were no poor indian ouens)

  • Blue Ozone

    Hoof_Hearted
    December 10, 2012 at 16:07 pm

    Yours and others responses in here is why I shall NEVER vote for the DA.

    I would rather vote for Julius Malema or the fokken AWB.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Graham
    December 10, 2012 at 15:43 pm

    Hey Graham,

    “Their revelations make Carlisle’s “transgression” the equivalent or leaving the toilet seat up.”

    In this instance it hardly mattered if Carlisle left the toilet seat up.

    He forgot to undo his zip!

  • Gwebecimele
  • Hoof_Hearted

    Blue Ozone
    December 10, 2012 at 16:12 pm
    “Yours and others responses in here is why I shall NEVER vote for the DA.”

    I don’t vote for them either charna, the solidarity is most welcome. I am however quite pleasantly surprised that you would consider voting for anyone other than the commies

  • Hoof_Hearted

    …. and I should add (just before I head off home to enjoy a bottle or two of Roodeberg) that the responses of OB and others in here is the reason why us COLOUREDS will NEVER, and I mean NEVER Ma’s se kinnes, vote for the SACP

  • Zoo Keeper

    Graham

    I saw the South Park expose on the consequences of leaving the toilet seat up. I now ensure all the seats are nailed down in my house…

  • Zoo Keeper

    Hoof

    You can’t vote for the SACP even if you tried – they don’t put any candidates up because they don’t believe in democracy.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Blue Boy

    “I would rather vote for Julius Malema or the fokken AWB [than for the DA]”

    Blue Boy is right. Let’s face it Mr Malema was young. He had a lot to learn. But even THEN I would rather have been ruled by him than the DA!

    Thanks.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    P.S. You forgot to mention that Pierrjie was educated at BROEDERBOND Stellenbosch!

  • ozoneblue

    @ZK

    Im sorry but the sort of “democracy” that is contingent on a principle of feudal enslavement where babies are born brain-damaged because their mothers are paid with alcohol you can shove right up your arse.

  • Chris (Not the right wing guy)
  • Gwebecimele

    The apology and explanation sound honest. Surely this did not deserve a posting here nor the Simelane matter.

    C’mon PdV we are in our last week to Mangaung and chapter 9 institutions are under attack.

  • Gwebecimele

    Is Vavi collapsing under pressure? Lately he seems to disappoint when it matters most.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Sleepy-drivers-Key-seizures-lawful-20121210

  • Gwebecimele
  • Trevor Wells

    De Vos says “…what makes it worse is that Carisle has not issued any guidelines…” We all know the DA’s stance on guidelines. The DA employed a lawyer to tell them that they did not have to follow treasury guidelines, convention or international best practice when they moved the tender process behind the closed doors of the Premiers’ office. She promised to resign if nothing untoward was found and we are still waiting? Guidelines mean Zilch to Zille at the top, what will they mean to her employees?

  • Dmwangi

    @OB:

    ‘Zoo Keeper
    December 10, 2012 at 15:14 pm
    OB

    Foetal alcohol syndrome is the fault of the mother, nobody else.

    Not sure why a political party, of any type, should be responsible for irresponsible motherhood which is an individual choice?’

    ZK is right. A foetus, as a tumour-like non-person, has no right to interfere with the lifestyle choices of its ‘host’ (mother), who may freely choose to drink without political interference until the umbilical cord is severed and the ‘appendage’s’ rights as a person obtain — for now.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Nope, no apology. First, because the post was about Carlisle stating that he does not care about the law and whether it is legal or illegal. That statement remains objectionable. Second, the section quoted is not going to help as it only applies when one is “incapable” of driving. When one is fatigued one is NOT incapable of driving, as one can control the car – although fatigued. In future one might well become incapable of driving the car, but when one is stopped while being fatigued one has not become so yet.

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Chris (Not the right wing guy)
    December 11, 2012 at 5:58 am

    “My bill is in the post.”

    Judas!!!!!!

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    p.s. But Right-Wing-Guy notice that Carlisle did an Mpshe on you!

  • Dmwangi

    ‘Second, the section quoted is not going to help as it only applies when one is “incapable” of driving. When one is fatigued one is NOT incapable of driving, as one can control the car – although fatigued’

    This cannot be correct. One may be both fatigued and capable or fatigued and incapable. But you cannot flatly state that since you’re driving perforce you’re not ‘incapable’ of controlling the car. One can be perfectly drunk and still not ‘incapable’ under your interpretation.

    Moreover, you glossed over a few things:

    ‘(f) if a person, being the driver or the person apparently in charge of a motor vehicle, appears, by reason of his or her physical or mental condition, howsoever arising, to be incapable for the time being of driving or being in charge of that vehicle,’

    If the person *appears* to be incapable…. The person need not even be incapable. Appearance will suffice. And you not only need to appear that you’re capable of driving but also that you ‘are in charge’ of the vehicle.

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Pierre De Vos says:
    December 11, 2012 at 8:31 am

    You don’t really believe the nonsense you have just posted, do you?

  • Brett Nortje

    Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Chris billed Carlisle? Just for S&Gs.

    I always thought Selfe would be much better informed if he read Dr Mouse’s explanation of the sentencing of the Waterkloof thugs.

  • Brett Nortje

    Are we not missing the central issue here?

    South Africa is no longer the kind of country where I pull off at a Ultracity and have a bit of shuteye if I feel tired.

    And the DA is so dof they want to punish the drivers for that.

  • Gwebecimele

    Cynthia Caroll’ message makes more sense than these 33 “wise men”. Theirs is nothing but trying to impose the clever Trevor plan on the ANC. In zulu there is popular saying that goes like this “Anike nizinuke amakhwapha” loosely translated means “smell your armpits first before complaining about bad smell”.

    I doubt if this group will support Cynthia’s diagnosis especially those CEO’s from mining.

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-safm-market-update/r-464

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-05-carroll-mine-violence-caused-by-legacy-of-apartheid

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    Congratulations to Habib. Will you set up a meeting between Habib and UCT’s Price?? He will certainly do better than Nongxa.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2012/12/08/prof-adam-habib-offered-wits-vc-post

  • Niel

    Well put Dmwangi. The appearance of incapability would in any event only be able to be determined by the facts of each particular case, sweeping statements notwithstanding.

  • Zoo Keeper

    OB

    What century are you in?

    The mother is the drinker. Nobody is forcing the stuff down her throat. Dop system is fundamentally illegal and anybody practicing it still is liable to be jailed. The dop system would appear to be extinct. Even if practiced it would be on such a small scale (because of its illegality) as to be irrelevant to the incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome.

    The mother is custodian of the child’s health whilst in her womb. If she is feeding it heaps of booze that is her fault.

    If she is an alcoholic she must either decide to avoid having children until she can keep herself clean, or take the full responsibility for her child’s health.

    The mother is at fault. Plain and simple. Why can’t people just be honest about it?

  • Peter Pan

    “When one is fatigued one is NOT incapable of driving, as one can control the car – although fatigued. In future one might well become incapable of driving the car, but when one is stopped while being fatigued one has not become so yet.”

    What a load of fucking bullshit. You should team up with Mac Maharaj.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Ozoneblue is right.

    Zille is to blame for Foetal Alcohol Sydrome. She wants the next generation to be so stupid as to vote for her instead of Mr Malema — whom OB and I agree would be a much better premier.

    Thanks OB!

  • Gwebecimele

    As Dworky would say it “WHITISM” strikes again, this time they want to derail Ntini’s appointment. Apparently he no longer speaks like house nigger.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=346495&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • spoiler

    A poor attempt at DA bashing – Carlisle’s comment was out of line, but at least he’s on the job and working to try and prevent road fatalities. His heart is in the right place I think, unlike so many politicians. And it appears his approach is justified by the Act. Fail.

  • Howard Klaaste

    Hallo Prof

    I think someone is hijacking your site as I received (and still receives) a lot of spam that appears to be coming from you but is about how I can make money.

    You may need to check it out.

    Regards

    Howard

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Howard Klaaste
    December 11, 2012 at 14:36 pm

    Howard,

    “I think someone is hijacking your site as I received (and still receives) a lot of spam that appears to be coming from you but is about how I can make money.”

    It’s not spam.

    It’s most probably Dmwangi assisting South Africans to become super rich.

    He’s a #CleverBlack-Economist, that one.

    Dworky – WDYT?

  • Deloris Dolittle

    Pierre

    Jou onderhoud op RSG was nie op jou gewone goeie standaard nie. Jy het nie so seker van jou saak geklink nie.

  • Lisbeth

    @ Prof

    “… but when one is stopped while being fatigued one has not become so yet.”

    That, I should imagine, is exactly Carlisle’s point.

    Example: have you never heard about the scores of people killed or injured because taxi bosses require their drivers to keep at it 24 hours a day, and who then fall asleep at the wheel, crashing their vehicle? This happens time and time again.

    Wouldn’t you agree that a whole lot of lives could be saved if such taxi drivers are stopped BEFORE they conk out from fatigue?

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) – Zuma MUST go!

    Lisbeth
    December 11, 2012 at 15:36 pm

    Lisbeth,

    11% of road accidents involve mini-bus taxis.

  • Gwebecimele

    Is this not the chap who bequeathed us high electricity prices that are killing small businesses and households????

    BOBBY GODSELL -Chairman of Business Leadership SA, Sunday Times Top 100 Lifetime Achiever 2012

    “In 2013, I hope that 51-million South Africans can unite around the vision of the country we set out in the National Development Plan. This vision sees a country of 58-million people in 2030, an economy three times its present size, with unemployment reduced to 6%, no one living below the national poverty line and inequality significantly reduced.

    The plan has been endorsed by all political parties represented in parliament, endorsed by our Cabinet and by most of the private sector and civil society.

    The two challenges in particular I hope South African business will address are these:

    Firstly we need a sustained period of economic growth, at least 2% higher than our population growth, so around 5%. This in turn requires most existing business to at least double their size over the next 18 years. And it requires that many new businesses be established.”

  • ozoneblue

    My pappa used to say it takes a man to admit you are wrong.

    Pierrietjie’s clumsy attempt at saving face after obviously making a fool of himself was not only comical but also pretty pathetic.

  • ozoneblue

    That is why we despeately need more real MEN in education.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2012/12/10/jm-coetzee-calls-for-more-male-teachers

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Gwebecimele
    December 11, 2012 at 16:47 pm

    LOL Gwebs,

    “The plan has been endorsed by all political parties represented in parliament, endorsed by our Cabinet and by most of the private sector and civil society.”

    “endorsing” the Plan means – “It’s such a nice plan, ne”

    Cabinet have other important priorities to IMPLEMENT – maximising the benefits from the HANDBOOK, building #NkandlaCompound, traveling to far away places, eating and living in the finest hotels and restaurants … well you get the drift!

    Trevor Manuel will be so proud that Cabinet “endorsed” his plan.

  • Lisbeth

    @ maggs

    “11% of road accidents involve mini-bus taxis”

    Thanks for that; you are a veritable fountain of facts and figures.

    Note that I used minibus taxis as an example. The carnage is so much more dramatic, wouldn’t you say, than in the case of one drowsy driver who nods off and hits a tree and ends up killing only himself.

    Actually, come to think of it, 11% is a lot, considering that minibus taxis don’t comprise 11% of the overall number of vehicles. Or maybe I’m wrong, being all too aware of my shortcomings in maths literacy.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneBoy

    “it takes a man to admit you are wrong”

    Ozone, you are right. But you are dead WRONG not to have reminded us yet again that “liewe Pierretjie” attended BROEDERBOND-Stellenbosch!

    Thanks.

  • ozoneblue

    I think he is a plant. This thread was in fact crafted to make the DA look good. The worse the “constitutional expert ” could come up with turns out to be load of prejudice shite.

    And miraculously he didnt even notice the SANDF being used by them for controlling disgruntled and heavily exploited citizens. I mean how fucking obvious can this get.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    December 11, 2012 at 18:27 pm

    Hey Lisbeth,

    If exhausted taxi-drivers get pulled over to “rest and recover”, will workers get paid for sitting in theWestern Cape sun for four hours?

  • Lisbeth

    @ Maggs

    Once upon a time, when I was a worker, I would have rather sat in the sun than spend time at the salt mines.

    Maggs:

    Those workers should be so lucky. Who wouldn’t want to sit in the sun rather than work for those slave wages they’re paid in the Western Cape? Besides, they’ll have a good excuse. But all that is of course academic: no cop in his/her right mind will ever stop a taxi driver for whatever reason.

    Going off on a tangent now, what’s this about “yikes, another seven years”? My calculations show that it’s only 5 years until the next Mangaung-style brouhaha, and then it’ll all be over for you-know-who, if not sooner. Much sooner if the DA wins the 2014 elections (rofl).

  • Brett Nortje
  • Chris (Not the right wing guy)

    Lisbeth
    December 11, 2012 at 20:35 pm
    “My calculations show that it’s only 5 years until the next Mangaung-style brouhaha, and then it’ll all be over for you-know-who, if not sooner.”

    Lisbeth, sometimes calculations are just of academic interest. Five years ago you-know-who proclaimed that he was not interested in a second term as you-know-what. Just as he demanded his day in court not so long before that. My prediction is that in five years time he will be at best campaigning for a third term, and if we are not so lucky, you-know-who will try for you-know-what-for-life.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    December 11, 2012 at 19:03 pm

    Just how exactly are they going to be pulled off?

    We all know implicit in Carlisle’s threat is policing by way of unlawful, unconstitutional JHBMetroPD/CTMetroPD credit-control road blocks.

    Have you ever seen a notice from the Commissioner of the SAPS authorising a roadblock at the roadblocks you’ve been stopped at?

    Can’t Jean Pierre come up with some kind of internal sanction against members of the DA talking sh1t more than six times an hour?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    December 11, 2012 at 20:35 pm

    Lisbeth,

    “no cop in his/her right mind …”

    Got some for you “right mind” one liners for you!

    - No MEC in his right mind will talk crap like Carlisle did.
    - No Premier in her right mind will dance like a monkey.
    - No person in his right mind in 2007 would have supported Zuma for ANC president (I cannot tell a lie – it was me!).
    - Dmwangi is not in his right mind (he left it at JFK and it was sent to recycling).
    - Ozone Boy has a right mind – hahahahaha April Fool!
    - Zuma knows what he is doing.

  • pekkil monta

    @ lisbeth @ maggs

    here’s another little bit of stats-abuse…

    You reckon that 11% of accidents involve taxi drivers, and I have no reason to doubt that. From industry figure last year, I understood that the taxi industry consumes just below 25% of all petrol in SA – therefore, they are far safer drivers than non-taxi drivers.

    Personally, I’d like to see those stats for suburb-mothers and their 4×4′s…

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • ozoneblue

    Brett NortjeDecember 11, 2012 at 20:46 pm
    Disgraceful!

    Welcome to the brave New Atheist world of the individual and unbridled greed. Another half a billion pissed down the gutter – ask maggs, who cares fuck the poor. when “the poor” become unruly we just send in the SANDF.

    At the end they will just blame it on WHITES and “apartheid” again.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    In what is being hailed as a landmark ruling on the way prisoners are treated by the state, the court ordered the Minister of Correctional Services S’bu Ndebele to pay all Dudley Lee’s legal costs on Tuesday. The case will now return to the Western Cape High Court which will decide what damages are due to Lee.

    http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-11-concourt-makes-landmark-tb-ruling

  • OCMoses

    What would be the test to determine when a a person is “Incapable”?

    It is nice to just say that De Vos is wrong, but this does not assist me in understanding under what circumstances keys would be taken away from me from being viewed as incapable.

    I know under what circumstances a drunk driver can be charged, It just seem like a way for lazy cops to exercise powers indiscriminately if a driver is for example too cheeky.

    The fact that MEC Carlisle’s heart is in the right place, does not automatically means that he should authorise callous conduct from police. It irks me almost as much as the billboard stating : that if you speed you are a killer.

    Please promote the discussion by looking at this relevant aspect.

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    OCMoses says:
    December 12, 2012 at 8:27 am

    Prof De Vos makes the statement:
    “When one is fatigued one is NOT incapable of driving, as one can control the car – although fatigued. In future one might well become incapable of driving the car, but when one is stopped while being fatigued one has not become so yet.”

    That statement is clearly wrong. If that was the case, it would be senseless to “temporarily forbid the person to continue to drive” as stated in the Act. Why would you forbid a person to “continue to drive” if he is in the absolute sense incapable of driving, as suggested by Prof De Vos. There are certain rules and presumptions in the interpretation of statutes. One such presumption is that the statue must not be reduced to a nullity. One must look at the object the section was intended to effect. To construe this section as Prof De Vos does would reduce it to a nullity and ignore the intention of Parliament and the object of the section. Also see the remarks by Dmwangi December 11 at 8:59 am, with which I align myself..

    “Incapable” in this section can have only one meaning, that is the incapability to drive with safety to himself/herself or with that regard to the safety and rights of others which the law demands. To drive while being half asleep is reckless driving, because you endanger your self and others.

    What would the test be? Probably the same as the question, when is a person to drunk to drive a vehicle with safety? Where do you draw the line when deciding if you may shoot in self defence? When is there proof beyond reasonable doubt, or on a balance of probabilities? Each case must be dealt with on its own merits, and the person required to make the judgement must apply his mind to the merits and make a value judgement. There simply is no other way to do it. You use the example of lazy cops to exercise powers indiscriminately if a driver is for example too cheeky. That can happen. Just as the same as a cop can lock you up for being drunk in public, just because you were cheeky or even arrest you for drunken driving for the same reason. I’ve seen a case where a guy was arrested for drunk in public while being cold sober, simply because the policeman was too lazy to get a warrant for the arrest. But that is, as in the example you mentioned, not application of the law, but unlawful abuse of his position.

    To use a practical example, a traffic officer once told me that he was working in a road block, when they stopped a lorry carrying a 36 ton load. He could see that the driver was very tired and asked when last he had slept. The answer was that he had been driving for 48 hours, stopping only for diesel. That is a prime example of a case where a traffic officer would not only have the right, but a positive duty to prevent the driver for continuing with his journey. I’ll go as far as saying that should he allow that driver to continue driving, and the driver falls asleep behind the wheel and is involved in an accident the traffic officer would by liable for damages caused.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    Who formulate and pass these unconstitutional laws??

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    Gwebecimele says:
    December 12, 2012 at 10:52 am

    Our beloved ANC.

  • Brett Nortje
  • tim

    I think that Prof De Vos made a good point about Carlisle not caring about the law. But Carlisle has backtracked on that; and it has been shown that the law does in fact provide for the situation.

    Shifting the debate now to the absence of a certain standard for determining levels of fatigue is silly.

  • Gwebecimele

    Somoene must remind the Arch that Clever Trevor is an ANC NEC member and a long standing beneficiary of the Handbook, he’s got a BMW 7 series to show for it. Who knows he might get a wall built on his house next.

    http://www.moneyweb.co.za/moneyweb-south-africa/archbishop-tutu-criticises-nkandla

  • Gwebecimele

    Lets see how the God chosen ones will navigate this one.

    http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/12/12/soweto-man-wants-plan-for-end-of-the-world

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “The posthumous assertion of this untruth damages not only Justice Chaskalson’s peerless record of candour and integrity, but also the institution of the Constitutional Court,” they said.

    http://www.bdlive.co.za/national/law/2012/12/12/chaskalsons-peers-defend-his-reputation

  • Zoo Keeper

    Anyway back to Carlisle

    It turns out he had the authority all along. Fine

    But for any person in public office to even think of stating that he doesn’t care if its legal or not, should be sufficient to lead to disciplinary steps against him.

    So Prof wrong on actual authority, right on principle of not saying you give a damn about legality.