One should not easily call a person a liar. One should especially not call somebody a liar if the President of the country has purported to appoint that person as the head of the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) and has endorsed that person as fit and proper, thus as possessing the necessary honesty, reliability, truthfulness and uprightness required by the law for him to be lawfully appointed by the President as National Director of Public prosecutions (NDPP).
It is an even more serious matter if that person will potentially be called upon to decide whether the President (who purported to have appointed him) should be prosecuted for fraud and corruption. One should therefore think twice before calling Menzi Simelane a liar, given the fact that he might have to decide the President’s fate. After all, if the DA is successful in having the NPA decision to withdraw charges against President Jacob Zuma set aside, Simelane will have to decide “without fear favour or prejudice” whether to proceed with the prosecution of the President.
This is therefore quite a big deal.
Unfortunately, I have to point to the following exchanges between Simelane and Advocate Wim Trengove before the Ginwala Inquiry which demonstrates that Simelane is a liar and attempted to mislead the Ginwala Inquiry. He is therefore not the kind of honest person which would be fit and proper to be appointed as NDPP:
SIMELANE: Well I am correct, because he himself would say that you are the accounting officer, so you deal with the issues.
TRENGOVE: Have you taken legal advice on the issue?
SIMELANE: It’s pretty straightforward, it doesn’t need legal advice in my view.
TRENGOVE: Won’t you answer the question. Have you taken legal advice on the question?
SIMELANE: No.
[...]
TRENGOVE: You said you took no legal advice on this issue, correct?
SIMELANE: No, I don’t remember really getting counsel opinion on it. No in fact, yes I think you are quite right, we actually did, we got the opinion of Adv Maleka, yes now I recall and Adv Khoza, yes we did.
TRENGOVE: Mr Simelane, you said you took no advice. You repeated that same answer and then when you saw me turning up a document you changed your mind.
SIMELANE: No you are quite wrong. What I was trying to recall was what the opinion was and it actually covered quite a lot of issues, more than this one specific issue. So I am quite correcting myself that we did actually get an opinion on a whole range of issues about the role of the NDPP. If I recall that was our opinion yes.
[...]
TRENGOVE: Yes. You were intimately involved in the preparation of the papers.
SIMELANE: Absolutely.
TRENGOVE: And in those papers one of the grounds, one of the accusations advanced against Mr Pikoli is precisely this difference of opinion between you and him, correct?
SIMELANE: Yes.
TRENGOVE: And yet you don’t tell the commission that you have taken legal advice on the question.
SIMELANE: Sorry, can you repeat that, I didn’t hear it nicely.
TRENGOVE: You don’t disclose to the commission that you had taken legal advice on the question.
SIMELANE: No I didn’t think there was a need to disclose that I took legal advice on the particular issue.
TRENGOVE: But how can there not be a need to disclose it to the commission when you sit with senior counsel’s opinion that contradict your own?
Ginwala was in fact rather kind to Simelane. On the basis of these and other exchanges (see full transcript here) it would be surprising if the Advocates profession do not apply to court to have Adv Simelane struck off the role of Advocates on the basis that he is no longer a fit and proper person. If the Bar Council does its job, Mr Simelane will be struck off the role which would also make him ineligible for appointment as NDPP.
Just a thought.
“f the Bar Council does its job”.
Eish!
Shocking! The stomach turns.
I have to agree with the Professor and presumably every other reasonable person who has had a look at what Simelane is about: Simelane should be ashamed of himself.
I would be very interested to hear someone try to defend Zuma’s decision to appoint Simelane.
And I too think that this Simelane character should not be an advocate.
lol Pierre i was just thinking that, if theres a will theres a way
I totally agree with you Prof, Menzi has shown himself to be a rather shady character not fit to be our NDPP.
I’m not so sure though about him being struck off the roll, certainly not on this basis alone.
I read the transcript of Trengrove’s questioning of MS – they seem to talk at cross-purposes through the whole thing. I think one should be careful before reading too much into it – Trengrove could (and would) manipulate Mother Theresa into sounding like a lying lowlife.. this is what he does for a living (at god only knows how many thousands of rands per hour).
Prof and anyone who feels strongly about the appointment should take the president to court if you feel it’s illegal. Stop playing to the gallery of the general public and egos of ANC opposition parties. Prove it in court.
When the CJ was appointed, many in opposition were unhappy. Qualification were ignored because it was not the choice for many irrespective of his ability. The mere fact that Adv Simelane disagreed with Adv Pikoli( much respect to him) does not preclude him from being appointed. Nor does his line of interpretation of the question from Adv Trengrove. In court, it’s not my duty to disclose information except if it exornerates me. That was the duty of Adv Trengrove to find out if it helped his cause.
I’m not in anyway involved in law but, these are my interpretation as a member of the public.
See the last few lines in the transcript Pierre is referring to – Simelane expressly states that he does not read the relevant provisions in the constitution in such a way that the independance of the NPA is guaranteed:
“TRENGOVE: I see. So your fundamental difference with him is that he contends that the Constitution guarantees the independence of the NPA while you dispute it, correct?
SIMELANE: I dispute that the Constitution says so.”
AMAZING!!!
John says:
November 26, 2009 at 13:48 pm
See the last few lines in the transcript Pierre is referring to – Simelane expressly states that he does not read the relevant provisions in the constitution in such a way that the independance of the NPA is guaranteed:
“TRENGOVE: I see. So your fundamental difference with him is that he contends that the Constitution guarantees the independence of the NPA while you dispute it, correct?
SIMELANE: I dispute that the Constitution says so.
——————————————————————————————————-
That necessarily means that he is at odds with the government on that as well – per clause 2 of Government’s agreement with Pikoli (Pierre De Vos says:November 24, 2009 at 9:44 am http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/pikoli-the-npa-and-the-r7-5-million/) :
“2. the Government reaffirms its commitment to the principle of prosecutorial independence in terms of section 179(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 and section 12 of the National Prosecuting Authority Act 32 of 1998 in terms of which the Prosecuting Authority is required to exercise its function, without fear, favour or prejudice;”
See also the First Certification Case where the Constitutional Curt said the following:
[146] NT179(4)providesthatthenationallegislationmustensurethattheprosecuting authority exercises its functions without fear, favour or prejudice. There is accordingly a constitutional guarantee of independence, and any legislation or executive action inconsistent therewith would be subject to constitutional control by the courts. In the circumstances, the objection to NT 179 must be rejected.
Mr Simelane’s view is therefore not only wrong, but displays either a breathtaking ignorance of the law or a subversive disrespect for the Constitution and the Constitutional Court.
And how is the constitutional guarantee of independence enforced when in conflict with contrary political intent? It seems to me that the challenges being given to our law and its bodies become more serious by the day. Is the danger of doing nothing any less or greater than doing something? Is it a conundrum we’re faced with?
My observation of the law’s present credibility in South Africa is that it has weakened significantly. It’s plausible that justice is in fact weakened to the point where it cannot support itself, or strengthen.
“Too late”, she cried.
Pierre et al, please leave Msholozi and Simelane alone. The commission you are referring to was not a judicial inquiry and therefore its outcomes cannot be used to determine the competency and eligibility of Simelane as an advocate. There is therefore nothing illegal in JZ’s appointment of Simelane. If I may ask who amongst you have never lied in your life? Are your positions, for instance yours Pierre as an academic, also not requiring some degree of honesty, reliability, truthfulness and uprightness? Why should Simelane’s vices be considered more damaging than yours?
According to our representative democratic system, by voting for the ANC we voted for Zuma, and by virtue of having appointed him as a president we, as a country, mandated him to take decisions on our behalf as he deem fit as long as he follows the rules of this country as contained in the constitution which is what he has done. If this is not palatable to some of you, hard luck.
Prof says, Nov 25, 2009
“I feel ashamed that I have given our president a benefit of doubt for all these months”.
I like your regret Prof for, together with others, having argued at some point in time for people to give JZ a chance with the hope, I presume that he will be a better devil than Mbeki. But one thing good about you that one must not fail to mention is that you did not fail to admit that JZ is not a better person SA deserves as a president.
I for one, together with others of course, stood firm and said he is the worst person to lead not only the ANC but the country and that you cannot plant a fig tree and expects to reap oranges. What we are seeing now is the confirmation that the fish indeed rots from the head. By the time people who sing `holy Jesus uMsholozi’ realize what a bad decision it has been for them to have blindly fought JZ’s course to be the president despite all the allegations and his conducts during his trials including the dropping of his charges which was enough an evidence to every sane and properly thinking person that he was not worth his salt, worse a president of the ANC and the country like SA; the greatest damage to all what we fought for as a country and a nation will be beyond repair.
Given how the man has gone about recycling everything that was declared bad and immoral, wrong and illegal, to be good, moral and legal; everyone accused of misconduct and convicted criminals into democrats, all in pursuit of self protection and benefit, popularity, discrediting Mbeki and being seen as another Mandela; I dare guess that if Idi Amin, Mobutu Sese Seko, Sani Abacha and Bongo were alive, he was going to use his state power to ensure that they become key leaders of the SADC and AU. He was also going to honour them with the highest Orders such as Companions of OR Tambo and the Boabab.
If you ask me how the future looks like all I can say is the young ones are not yet born. Like I have said there are still many rogues of our political community who are waiting for their share of the cake. Instead of expecting the bar to struck Simelane junior off the expect the reinstatement of Simelane the senior in to the Law Society as an attorney which will pave the way for him to be next on the line for high office as a payback for what his son has done for JZ and what he is still going to do from now henceforth. We have now arrived in that country where the interests of the president come first, followed by the party he leads and then the rest of us mortals as PdV would put it.
Is there any visible or tangible way in which citizens or organisations can protest the present government’s flagrant disregard for the rule of law? So many issues have been high;ighted in this blog.
I think that this appointment shows the cynicism (and the fear) among Mr Zuma and his people. I also predict that this will be seen as the turning point, although the travesties have been occurring for some time now.
There may be pain and suffering ahead forr those who speak out, but are we ready to give up on justice and truth now, and creep back into our shells?
mayimele says:
November 26, 2009 at 16:38 pm
Yes, I’m afraid if the bar wanted to have Simelane struck off the roll, they would have acted long ago. The bar is strickt, advocates have been struck off the roll for less than perjury, but nothing is going to happen here. My prediction is also that to the contrary he will be Adv Simelane SC shortly.
Perhaps FUL will consider challenging the appointment. What a debate we will have should that happen!
Musa says:
November 26, 2009 at 13:12 pm
Musa, are you lobbying for the position of DNDPP?
________________________
John says:
November 26, 2009 at 13:48 pm
As they say in South African: Amma-Zing!
___________________
Mike Atkins says:
November 26, 2009 at 16:49 pm
Oeee, weee?!, weee!?, wee my ?!!(ons)?
Peter says:
November 26, 2009 at 13:07 pm
…..” this is what he (Trengove) does for a living (at god only knows how many thousands of rands per hour).”
It happens to be a free market system, if you do no want to pay him the thousands of rands you can always hire a Simelane look alike.
If you read Die Burger, M&G, or the postings on many news articles, analysts and blogs in South Africa, one can see we’ve arrived again. This is a new time, equally as potent as before.
So what’s next? Maybe hindsight can help.
I have a dear friend. He was in relationship for many years with someone we his supporters and friends cautiously accepted; he loved her and gave her every benefit of the doubt when conflictive issues arose, even when friends tried to subtly and politely warn him, as in: “Hey bro, how’s it going with your sweetie”? Unfortunately, although concerned, we did not see just how deeply serious and self-interested her exploitive relationship was. Knowing relationships are always challenging, and although uneasy with all the worrying signs, nevertheless we wanted to give them a chance. So we accepted her into our lives.
Fact: she was regularly unfaithful, she pillaged his funds, and that happened because he allowed it by weakly denying his own strength… then she decimated him, attacking his business, properties and car, taking his children and his life as he knew it. He fled to foreign realms, to drive a tractor for a foreign boss.
Pity he never realized divorce was a possibility long before she took him for everything.
Mags – It seemed to me that MS was just being petulant in the face of a severe savaging by Trengrove, and was simply saying that the Constitution, as it stands, does not literally state that “the independance of the NPA is guaranteed”.
Tatera – what do you mean by “a Simelane look alike”? Also, I am not too sure that I want our legal system to be a free market system ie access to the fine lawyers and stalingrad defences for the rich and powerful only…
Collins Chabane is Adv Simelane s “look alike”, isnt it Tetera?…Anyway, I ve taken Prof’s OPINION on this for legal OPINION also. Seeing that merely forgetting what OPINIONS have one recieved can cause academics resort to name calling (e.g liar) to prove their OPINIONS.
I must say, I too am shocked at President’s Zuma’s appointment of Adv Simelane.
Zuma has such a record of integrity!
How could anyone have doubted?
Shocked! I am just shocked!
Sorry.
[...] TRENGOVE: And yet you don’t tell the commission that you have taken legal advice on the question. via constitutionallyspeaking.co.za [...]
Least I be accused of being TM, may I please quote Yeats!?
TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
I hear on the news that the Bar received a complaint against Semilane on 3 November.
Anon,
If you paid attention, you would have read my statement stating that i’m not in the law profession. Show’s a bit of ingnorance that you were able to respond without reading my whole comment.
Mayimele, your statement of equating our president to Mobuthu and the like indicates the shallowness of your understanding of the person he is and democracy we have. I said to all who disagree, that they must put a challenge through the legal structures as is the case by Adv Ellis of the Pretoria bar. Hopefully, we’ll see the same outcry from all of you my legal learnered friends tackling the issue about the Eastern Cape magistrate who called a person appearing in her court a monkey. There seem to be silent on that friend. Judge Harmse should also be persued with the same vigour of being not fit and proper for denying and still sticking to his guns that the third hand was involved in the killing of many blacks.
To all people here, those who agree or not, let’s not be hypocrites. If your don’t agree with me, it doesn’t mean that you should equate me to someone who’s stupid and uneducated. As the president said, lets debate the issue as many have done so here.
I meant “There seems to be silence on that front”.
@ Musa
I do remain somewhat shaken by President Zuma’s appointment if Mr Simelane.
On the other hand, Musa has helpfully put the matter in perspective. How can anyone complain about Mr Simelane, while Harms JA remains on the bench? Ditto, it seems absurd to point at deceit in departments of state when we know that (as Maggs points out), Mr Blair deceived Westminster about Iraq, and got away with it?
And let us not forget the historical “big picture.” So long as we recall that the Roman Senate ratified Caligula’s ascendancy, I hardly think any of us should be whinging about Mr Simelane, tender-rigging, the arms deal, or municipal service delivery!
@Musa
Eastern Cape magistrate who called a person appearing in her court a monkey. There seem to be silent on that friend.
um not really the judge was found guilty of hate speech
and anon was making a joke lighten up its friday.
as for Judge Harmse let it go man the guys work speak volumes and has carried out his duty post apartheid with honour.
Honestly I think people are sick and tired when people make comments ” OH but what about the people in apartheid”
but you deflecting from the actual debate, do you think Simelane is fit and proper and do you think the Justice Minster is correct in thinking the Ginwala report is not bestowed onto him?
Clutching at straws. Tilting in the wind. Really. I mean really.
Say Zuma had requested Trengrove to be the new NDPP head. Wouldn’t that have been the ultimate form of stupidity? I have never heard of a person opening a case against oneself. Never.
Maybe FUL can take this matter up. I am however worried that they are running out of Blacks to front their position (I don’t think it would be fair for the Arch to be involved as Pikoli has demonstrated these Principled positions don’t last).
It is time for people to emerge from these make believe world. To appreciate the increased securitisation of our country.
The appointment of Simelane merely serves to entrench the ring of steel around security. Many events that appear to be disconnected are however steadily infringing on our privacy. These vary from Rica, cameras on freeways, number plate recognition technology, etc
So, this appointment makes sense.
Dumisani says:
November 27, 2009 at 7:38 am
“So, this appointment makes sense.”
Of course it does now the Germans cant carry on with there investigations into the Arms deal.
But please watch the BAE investigation from SFO im afriad Zuma wont be able to stop that one nore blair unless BAE settles out of court. However I think that is also unlikly becuase the US is also involved in BAE investigations.
Professor, I just took a look at legalbrief and saw that your views about Simelane were quoted. Let me say this: you certainly have pluck to consistently and publically stick it to the ANC which has repeatedly shown itself to be a disgraceful party. Thank you. Lady Justice may not need to see but she certainly needs a public forum.
Chris, I think Adv Simelane is fit and proper for the position.
As for anon, I don’t take kindly to demeaning jokes.
Judge Harmse: Perhaps it’s easier for you to let go because you didn’t lose members of your family. To me it’s much harder when i see double standard when laws are applied. I guess it depends on who are people who are tired of being reminded of apartheid.
Avoid double standards. We have the racism dossier compiled by the Judge Hlophe (Much hated in the Cape legal profession). That article has never been taken to task by many on this blog because it does not sit well with many. Will we ever get an advocate to ask the Justice Ministry what has been done to ensure that there’s racial harmony in that province within the legal profession. Answer is an absolute NO. I will never be comfortable appearing before many of the judges in our courts. Fortunately for me, i keep within the laws of this country.
Musa says:
November 27, 2009 at 7:57 am
Chris, I think Adv Simelane is fit and proper for the position.
how so?
I just wonder what people would then say if Menzi Simelane were to re-instate charges against our president. Would the loud mouths still call him a ‘liar’? and more importantly, would they still find him ‘neither fit nor proper’.?
Cause to me, there seems to be a lot of double speak here. The city of Cape Town has given away 4.2 billion rands to a group of white men for approximately 8 cents a month and nobody seems to have a problem with that.
khosi says:
November 27, 2009 at 8:03 am
guys come on how is this issue now turning into a balck and white thing?
Would the loud mouths still call him a ‘liar’? and more importantly, would they still find him ‘neither fit nor proper’.?
Well if charges Zuma, that would be rather funny and I would have to give him respect to have the balls to pull that move off.
However he is found to be a man wanting, so i highly doubt he would recharge Zuma. soi dont see any base for your question
Khosi, whether Simelane would re-instate charges against Zuma (as ridiculously improbable as that is) is irrelevant. That is, even if he would re-instate those charges, he still lied under cross. And it is his dishonesty which suggests heavily that he is not fit and proper.
Musa, while I am not claiming bottomless depth of knowledge in South African politics and democracy in general, knowledge of and understanding of Zuma as a person, a politician and president; I doubt if yours, not with regards to the above issues, but with the correctness of what you think you know and what you actually know. If you ask me, based on your post above you appear to be a boastful novice who does not know what he knows and what he does not know,
For instance, if you really know Zuma very well how could you dispute my alleged comparison of him with Idi Amin on the ground that he (Amin, among others) is stupid and uneducated? Does Zuma, in your deeper and bottomless knowledge of him, possess any formal education that makes him different from Amin?
Between you and I whose statements demonstrate shallowness in knowing and understanding, just Zuma, before we go to the complex subjects of politics and democracy?
I can go on and on Musa, but I can see that your problem is deeper than the ocean in this regards.
Chris, he’s adequately qualified for job. Knows the intricacies within the NPA, though he was on the opposite end. As for being called a liar, i stated my case in my first posting.
It’s obvious that he’s disliked whether or not he does his job appropriately. This is based on Chris’ response to Khosi.
One thing i’ve noted with many people at law is that almost everyone has their own political opinion regarding legal issues e.g. who should be the CC judge, NDPP, etc. This is evident from comments on this site and reading through quotations of anonymous advocate on M&G website and within NDPP office. That is acceptable. However, it must not result in maladministration of justice.
@ Mayimele
Please do not seek to impose your western colonialist conception of “formal education” here.
Comrades Zuma and Malema may not be your ivory-tower intellectuals. But they have both been educated in the struggle. They know intuitively about what is best for our people. Furthermore, they have both shown an enormous capacity to learn from the masses.
(Bush has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Verwoerd had a Phd (Psy.) Would you prefer such snooty white intellectual to lead us?)
Musa, with respect, it seems a very fair bet that Simelane lied. Either that or he conveniently forgot that he took senior counsels’ opinion (which contradicted his own) on a score which was at issue. Moreover, the transcript shows that he only ‘remembered’ that he did when Trengove SC was about to produce hard evidence that would have run directly contrary to his testimony. To many a reasonable mind, the following seems to be the most likely way in which events unfolded at the inquiry: Simelane knew he took counsels’ opinion. He knew it contradicted his prefered (but untenable) view. He initially thought he could keep that quiet. Then during cross, he sought to deny it until that devastatingly classy and thorough litigator, Trengove SC, cornered him. That is, Simelane lied until he realised that his dishonesty would not wash.
(As an ‘aside’ [oh dear], I would say that Zuma strategy is plain for all to see: Cele, Shaik, Radebe, Simelane. It seems clear that to the president’s mind, the criterion for appointment to most influential offices which trumps all others is: can I count on you to have my back no matter what? Yes at one stage in its history the ANC brand had a lot of gloss. It sparkled and rightly so. But with the efforts of the president and his inner circle, that brand is fast-becoming as crude as Malema’s rhetoric and as dirty as the arms deal.)
@Leigh,
Pardon my lazy mind, but I thought Mbeki was the chief in appointing ‘yes men and women’ and according to Mbeki basher, you included, JZ was supposed to antithesis of all that Mbeki was.
If I read you correctly at 8:16 and especially at 9:03, you are saying that Zuma is surrounding himself with ‘yes men’. Am I wrong?
Mayimele, i guess there’s no point in arguing with you if conversations results in labelling others stupid. I would also not engage you on whether education is the only yardstick of intelligence. By the way, i have degrees too but don’t regard myself as the only intelligent person in the world.
Leigh, i fully appreciate your positive engagement. My interpretation of what Adv Simelane was doing was to outsmart Adv Trengrove. This is always the case in judicial cases. See engagement of Adv Nel and Adv Cilliers. This is what you guys in the legal profession do. Love it by the way how you exctract the truth. It didn’t work out for Adv Simelane. Does that then disqualify him for the post? All top lawyers in the country will tell that to win cases, certain information is withheld by their witness. it’s up to your opponent to extract it. Unless it’s a legal requirement to tell, why should I. In this case, was it his duty (Adv Simelane) to elaborate on every items he sort legal opinion. From my perspective, it wasn’t. Successful lawyers outsmart others.
Musa says:
November 27, 2009 at 8:31 am
you not answering my question, you been very vague on the matter. You telling me he is fit and proper with no facts how is he fit and proper what makes him fit and proper and you telling me he is qualified for the job with no facts. Please convince me that he is the right guy for the right job at the right time also bear in mind that this postion he has abtained is infact a demotion
I would like you to share some facts details with me.
Musa
“One thing i’ve noted with many people at law is that almost everyone has their own political opinion regarding legal issues”
the reason for this is rather natural esp when it comes to constituional law. Politics and the constitution work hand in hand the one can not do with the other, the one balances the other.
Musa:
Always pay extra attention to what Mayimele says: I don’t know him personally, but from reading this blog I have learned that he is one of the most intelligent persons to contribute here.
Chris: See his profile on the link below. Hope this helps. The question is whether he’s fit and proper? I’ve stated my case and i hope this will support my assertion to you.
http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/Pages/profilefull.aspx?IndID=2286
Regarding politics and constitutionally law, you given credence to my observation that we should not merely use the law to exclude others if they don’t adhere to our political views. That’s the problem with SA Law as is the case in the US with the appointment of judges.
Chris thank you for the headups on Mayimele. FYI i’ve been sitting on the sideline on this site for over a year. I therefore, have a very good idea on the contribution that many make on this site. My issue with Mayimele was the assertion that if you are not educated, you are therefore stupid. Unfortunately Chris, this is the line adopted by many contributers in SA media websites. There is a common belief by many on these websites that people voting for the ANC are stupid and brainwashed. They question many who voted the ANC and thus, Pres Zuma.
I accept differences but not disrespect. No one has franschise to intelligence.
Khosi, I take exception to you calling me an Mbeki basher. I rarely post when Mbeki is up for discussion. But I will concede that I have read some things about Mbeki which, were I to investigate them, could cause me to dislike him greatly.
I am not really saying that I think Zuma surrounds himself with yes men. What I am saying is that in my view, Zuma, in keeping with the current ANC culture, sometimes takes or promotes the taking of unlawful (or at least very questionable)steps to protect himself. Thus if you are seeking from me an unambiguous statement that I think Zuma and his henchmen are a dubious fellowship, then you have it.
JZ might have taken unpopular decisions but he is not stupid and uneducated.
His rise to power was a well calculated move that resembles the best strategic tactics you will ever find. He outsmarted those who thought they were the best minds in our politics. The smart ones even failed to launch a decent party but rather created an undemocratic vehicle to transport themselves back to parliament.
By the way Mugabe has 7 degrees.
Musa says:
November 27, 2009 at 9:37 am
Musa im lost: he has all the paper works in play, but hey so does Uncle Bob. Im sorry Uncle Bob is the set standard for africa a measuring tool im afriad
See being qualifyed and being a man of integrety are two very different subject matters.
would an allegid child rapist with an PHD be fit and proper to work at a primary school?
FACT:
1)He “did not heed the legal advice he had sought and received, and continued to assert powers he did not have”.
2)He had made a number of “spurious” claims aimed at getting Pikoli fired, which he was later forced to retract.
3)Simelane was painting an inaccurately rosy picture of the chronic lack of trained intermediaries available to assist child rape victims – who, in 86 percent of South Africa’s courts, are forced to confront their abusers face-to-face and unassisted he was later forced to admit how many intermediaries were trained
4)His refusal to help the german team investigations
5)He was suspended and demoted to NDPP
now why on earth if some one who is so “fit and Proper” be suspended in the first place and the demoted to a mere NDPP?
I dont understand what case you stated actually.
“why should I. In this case, was it his duty (Adv Simelane) to elaborate on every items he sort legal opinion. From my perspective, it wasn’t. Successful lawyers outsmart others.”
really? if he so out smarted Trengove then why was thi statement made:
Once the honesty of the DG is called into question, we could not ignore that. We had to direct the minister to follow up on that issue. There must be a due process that the minister will follow. We cannot pre-empt that due process,” Motlanthe said.
Look I understand he is black and the need to support him but surly the BLA has better gold carrets in the bag they could of nominated to Zuma to fillfull the role?
But you still need to answer me on why he is the right man for the right job at the right time? giving the fact how battered and bruised the Judiciary is? esp in light how the NPA is a former shadow of itself
Gwebecimele says:
November 27, 2009 at 10:05 am
I must admit i am in awe of Zuma he plays a very well calculated game but he has the money for it
Musa, you are right insofar as litigators (court lawyers) do try to outfox each other. If by citing Gerrie and Jaap you mean to demonstrate that opposing lawyers do not do each other favours when it comes to the merits of cases, then yes, I agree that this is often the case.
But Simelane was, in this instance, a witness and as such, he should have been forthcoming when Trengove SC put questions to him. One could even argue that Simelane was doubly obliged to be forthcoming given that he is an admitted advocate. Advocates are officers of the court. That status affords them certain capabilities. But very importantly, to gain that status, people must meet certain criteria and must bear certain responsibilities. I expect that apart from the Jeff Radebe’s of this world (that is, people who come up with very curious legal opinions) you would have to look far and very wide indeed to meet a lawyer who will not agree that an advocate that lied under cross would not be fit and proper to be a member of the Bar.
Well summed up Leigh. The more things change, the more they stay the same. It will be interesting to see how this debacle pans out in the next few weeks/months.
Musa, with due respect, if you are honest to yourself and to issues under discussion you will realize that by responding to your post I gave your post an undeserved credit. My reason for saying this is that, with the degrees you say you have, you do seem to thinking before you write your posts. You also seem to have problem with truth, reality and facts. You also seem to have problem in understanding what you are talking about and why you do so. To be precise, you invent words such as educated and stupid where they were not alluded to, place them on my door and the start throwing bricks at me for having created them.
Despite that, let me try to correct you and Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder here. Guys you are not focusing on the question or issues raised in this discussion.
I have never in my post mentioned or demanded that Zuma should have formal education. This is a manufactured statement from both of you guys and is based on Musa’s misunderstanding of my initial post where I said if Abacha, Amin and Seseseko et al were alive, JZ could have used his state power to ensure they play leadership role in structures like the SADC and AU. From this statement, Musa cooked the allegation that I am comparing Zuma with “someone who’s stupid and uneducated”. (i) there is no comparison in my post, (ii) if Musa and you Mikhail know and understand what you are talking about here you would have understood that the focus of my post in as far as it relates to Zuma and the leaders I have mentioned above is on them having committed illegal, immoral and criminal activities as opposed to them being educated or not; which make my post relevant to the Simelane discussion we are currently dealing with; (iii) still on this concerted aspect of formal education, Musa shows some worrying signs of misunderstanding what he is talking about and being a liar – by his statement on formal education above, he, in my understanding claiming that Zuma is actually educated while the other leaders I have mentioned are not educated. In an attempt to enlighten him, I cite just one leader, Idid Amin and do the actual comparison based on the education aspect he is so passionate about and which he claimed I did initially based my alleged comparison on and I do not find the difference he claims there is. And this is the garbage that Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder you are surprisingly buying at a highest bidder and accusing me of what I have never said.
If you have been a regular to this blog, you would know that I am on record of having stated in one of the topics relating to Zuma discussed that the kind of education we require from Zuma is to knows how to differentiate the right from the wrong and to be able to act as a leader when someone under his watch does something that is wrong, and not formal education. And the same goes not only for Malema but anyone who can demonstrate the above in his holding of public office.
I welcome you Musa and Mikhail not to respect my garbage posts with your responses but I will continue responding to yours because I consider them useful in many ways, and I will also try not to fail to correct you based on facts and figures when I think you are going astray.
Leigh, i differ when you argue that Adv Simelane was obliged merely, because he’s an admitted advocate. This was a commission and he was appearing as a witness in his capacity as the director general. Had he been in a court of law as witness, i would grant such responsibility.
@ Mayimele
I certainly respect and welcome your dissenting view.
Let me add something else though: If there is one golden rule in transformative discourse, it is that we always take the diametrically opposite position to whatever the DA’s stance is on a particular matter.
I view this as one more reason to welcome the appointment of Cmd Simelane.
I agree that the lack of formal education does not make you stupid. My grandfather never went to school, but he read more books during his lifetime than any other person I know. He never saw what the ocean looks like, but he could discuss almost any topic with any person. My father started his adult life as a farm labourer, but went as far as matric with his own education, and saw to it that all his children got a university education. I don’t see myself as more intelligent or even more educated than my father of grandfather.
The opposite is also true: I know many men and and women who hold LLB degrees, and I think of them as stupid. A formal education also does not make a person honest, and it does not give you integrity.
Prime Minister John Vorster had a LLB degree. If Vusi Simelani is a fit and proper person to be appointed as NDPP, surely Vorster, if he was still alive, would also have been a suitable, fit and proper candidate for the post.
Peter says:
November 26, 2009 at 19:53 pm
“….. . Tatera – what do you mean by “a Simelane look alike”? Also, I am not too sure that I want our legal system to be a free market system ie access to the fine lawyers and stalingrad defences for the rich and powerful only…”
You get what you pay for (except of course if you in government then the tax payer pays). If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
Peter says:
November 26, 2009 at 19:53 pm
The notion of King Zuma goes against the grain of a constitutional democracy!
Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder, other than his role in the dropping of Zuma charges, unbecoming conduct and lies in the Ginwala commission, I honestly have no reason to challenge Simelane’s appointment. The reason I am against it now is that, among other things, he has successfully proved to be the man who is going to serve the interests of JZ first, ANC second and then the rest of us later. So the independence of the judiciary which is the only thing we can hold onto after we failed to sustain our miraculous political transition from apartheid to democracy will definitely be eroded. Other than these, his appointment was going to be more than the word welcome in as far as it relates to transformation in general and that if the judiciary in particular.