Constitutional Hill

Why Rastafarians can’t be fired for wearing dreadlocks

Seemingly neutral codes of conduct often discriminate against individuals or groups who do not belong to the dominant economic, religious or cultural group in a society or in an organisation. But because those who draft such Codes are often unaware that they are merely codifying assumptions, prejudices or beliefs that they themselves are steeped in, they often seem incapable of accepting this fact. A recent Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) judgment, confirming that the dismissal of several Correctional Services officers for failing to adhere to the Department of Correctional Services Dress Code was unlawful, illustrates this point well.

When the Department of Correctional Services fired several warders for refusing to cut their dreadlocks, they must have thought that they had a watertight case. After all, the Departmental Dress Code clearly prohibits male (but not female) Correctional Services officers from dying their hair or cutting it “in any punk style, including a ‘Dreadlocks’ hairstyle”.

What they never realised is that even if you ignore the terminally unhip assumption that “dreadlocks” is a “punk” hairstyle (don’t these people watch Vuzu, MTV or Mzanzi Magic), the Code is highly problematic because it aims to impose a very distinct religious and cultural worldview on all employees. In fact it has the whiff of apartheid era conservatism about it.

For, example the Code declares that for Female Officials “[u]nnatural hair colours and styles, such as punk, are disallowed”. But what are “natural” and “unnatural” hairstyles? Is a weave “natural” or “unnatural”? If a blond officer colours her hair black is that “natural” or “unnatural”. If an African officer colours her hair blonde is that “natural” or “unnatural”? Who decides what is “natural” and “unnatural” hair and on what basis? Don’t the people who drafted this Code know that hair is a highly political issue, often implicating race, gender, sexuality, culture, ethnicity and – yes – religion?

The Code further instructs that men may not wear their hair “longer than the collar of the shirt when folded down or cover more than half of the ear”. (I am almost certain they lifted that rule from the hair rules applicable to boys at Pietersburg Hoërskool in the early eighties when I was a pupil there.)

In Department of Correctional Services and Another v Popcru and Others, the SCA (in a judgment authored by Maya JA) did not comment on the specific cultural, racial and religious assumptions underlying this Code. But it did uphold the decision of the Labour Appeal Court that the dismissals were automatically unfair on the basis that it discriminated against the officers on the basis of religion, culture and gender.

Some of the dismissed officers based their claim on the fact that they were members of the Rastafarian religion, asserting that they wore dreadlocks as an outward manifestation of their religion – much like wearing a headscarf or a cross would be an outward manifestation of the religion of some Muslims or Christians. Other officers gave cultural reasons for their hairstyle. One – Mr Ngqula – said he wore his dreadlocks to obey his ancestors’ call, given through dreams, to become a “sangoma”  in accordance with his Xhosa culture. Another – Mr Kamlana – said he was instructed to wear his dreadlocks by his ancestors and did so to overcome “intwasa”, a condition understood in African culture as an injunction from the ancestors to become a traditional healer, from which he had suffered since childhood.

The dismissed officers were relying on section 187(1)(f) of the Labour Relations Act which states that a dismissal is automatically unfair when it is based on either direct or indirect unfair discrimination. The Department originally argued that there had been no motive to discriminate against the dismissed officers and that they were dismissed, not because of their religion, culture or gender, but because of their failure to comply with a neutral policy and a lawful instruction to cut their hair.

This was obviously legal nonsense. Our law does not require you to prove a discriminatory motive before finding that discrimination had taken place as it focuses on the effects of the actions and not on the motives for it. Moreover, our law also prohibits indirect discrimination which occurs when a seemingly neutral rule or code disproportionately affect the members of a specific group. Clearly, a “neutral” rule prohibiting the wearing of “dreadlocks” will have a disproportionately negative effect on Rastafarians. Similarly, a “neutral” rule prohibiting anyone from wearing a “weave” would have a disproportionately negative effect on black women.

After dropping this patently silly argument, the Department proffered new reasons for the discrimination. First, it said that a prohibition of the wearing of “dreadlocks” by male (but not female) officers was:

critical for the enforcement and maintenance of discipline and security in a prison environment. Any deviations from uniformity to accommodate diversity would open the floodgates for exemption requests to the department’s detriment. Dreadlocks also posed a particular risk because they could easily be grabbed by an inmate to disarm an official.

Of course, this argument is often trotted out by the dominant group in the hope that it would make the discrimination invisible. But such an argument is highly problematic as it relies on the assumption that the dominant norm that the so called “neutral” rules are trying to impose on everyone would be invisible to all. I suspect that for many who devise these Codes and enforce them, the dominant norm is indeed invisible. Like fishes who spend their days in the sea and never get upset about being wet all the time because they have no idea how it must feel to be dry, most people steeped in the dominant culture do not realise that their views are a mere reflections of the assumptions, prejudices and beliefs of those who dominate the culture.

For example, I can’t imagine that in our macho culture a workplace Code of Conduct would ever prohibit male workers from wearing pants at work and would require them to wear skirts when they come to work. This is because the gender stereotypes about how men are “supposed” to dress are so deeply embedded in our culture that many people actually think it is “natural” or normal” without ever asking why or without ever thinking that some men might not like dressing up in pants.

The Department then came up with a new excuse for discriminating against officers because of their religion and their culture; that the real problem was not the dreadlocks, but the use of dagga that accompanies the wearing of dreadlocks. As the SCA explained:

The risk posed by dreadlocks, it was argued, is that they render Rastafari officials conspicuous and susceptible to manipulation by Rastafari and other inmates to smuggle dagga into correctional centres. This would negatively affect discipline and the rehabilitation of inmates.

This argument was also dismissed – for obvious reasons. Nothing in the Code actually link the wearing of “dreadlocks” with the use or smuggling of dagga and the point was only raised in the SCA. The obvious point not made by the SCA is that our prisons are awash in dagga – and not because there are a handful of Rastafarian warders in the Department of Correctional Services.

Lastly, it was argued that it was an inherent requirement of a job for warders to have short hair (well, at least if they are male warders – somehow it is never an inherent requirement for the job that a female warder should have short hair. This argument was also dismissed by the SCA who pointed out that:

Even assuming otherwise, no evidence was adduced to prove that the respondents’ hair, worn over many years before they were ordered to shave it, detracted in any way from the performance of their duties or rendered them vulnerable to manipulation and corruption. Therefore, it was not established that short hair, not worn in dreadlocks, was an inherent requirement of their jobs. A policy is not justified if it restricts a practice of religious belief – and by necessary extension, a cultural belief – that does not affect an employee’s ability to perform his duties, nor jeopardise the safety of the public or other employees, nor cause undue hardship to the employer in a practical sense.

This is not the first (and neither will it be the last) case in which those who embody the dominant prejudices, beliefs and assumptions of a specific institution or of broader society discriminate against others who do not form part of the dominant group and do not share its values. Why they never seem to learn from the mistakes of others is beyond me.

  • Mike

    I thought we lived in a secular state where religous symbols were not supposed to to be imposed on the laws of the state.
    From a safety point of view I think the SCA made a booboo because neck attire is not allowed to be worn on people using macjinery or involved in repairing macjinery.

  • John Roberts

    “…dismissal of several Correctional Offices for failing to ..”

    Methinks you should rather write an article on why a building can’t be fired

  • Thu

    this is so wrong in so many levels, I can imagine you are trying to imply uniformity isn’t everything. if so, then why would everyone at school be forced to wear a tie (for an example)?. The intention of rules is not created to fit a specific group of individuals, but EVERYONE – Rasta or not. What happens to female muslims who work for the Department? do they wear hijab work? With every constitutional right there is a limitation and this for me the SCA has fumbled big time.

  • http://www.unisa.ac.za sebjeni Moyahabo

    The SCA has just rectified a mistake that happened in Prince’s case. It has taken the minority view.
    In any event, it cannot be established that if dreadlocks are dealt away with, there will not be smuggling of substances, that to me is a clear speculation and a desperate attempt to practice intolerance of the worst order.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    Are we still Bricsa?

    (Financial Times) — Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, has moved to inject some moral fibre into the country’s top-level bureaucrats and state employees by giving them a three-month deadline to close their foreign bank accounts and divest themselves of offshore assets — or face the sack.

  • Lisbeth

    Gwebecimele
    April 4, 2013 at 18:11 pm

    One might have thought that the brainiacs at UCT would know that Indians are also Caucasians.

  • Lisbeth

    @ Mike

    “macjinery”

    You could be forgiven for misspelling ‘machinery’ once. But twice, and in the same sentence?

    You’re fired.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    April 4, 2013 at 18:49 pm

    LisB,

    “You could be forgiven for misspelling ‘machinery’ once.|

    You’re forgiven for mis-spelling “macjinery” only because it often gets mistaken for “machinery”.

    Mike will explain!

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus spelled backwards sounds like sausage! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    p.s. If you’re wondering what “macjinery” is …

    It relates to utterances by our President’s spokesperson trying to explain what the president meant

    p.p.s. Explain is a euphemism for “lying through his teeth!”

  • Captain

    Pierre De Vos,

    So you are saying that government depts. may not discriminate all the time, only some of the time?
    There are many instances of discrimination from government depts. but they are allowed. Promotions at the SAPS is an example, one can be discriminated against there based on merely ones skin colour.
    How is it allowed in one dept. and not another.

    Apart from the rastas the others were part of the dominant group, zulus and xhosas are very much in the majority and these warders were practising beliefs that are part of the dominant groups culture/religeon. How then is it that the dominant group can discriminate against its own beliefs?

    I am no expert please, but from the street this man sees some contradiction and double standards.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Just what the prison service needs – less discipline.

    Perhaps the culture could be extended to the police and the army?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozone, Mike at al

    I must say the figures below came as a HUGE surprise to me. I thought whitish types were at the bottom of the totem pole in the NEW SA!:

    “According to the South Africa Survey, in 2011 the median monthly wage for African earners was R2,380, for coloured earners R3,030, for Indian earners R6,800 and for white earners R10,000. John Endres, CEO of Good Governance Africa, a research and advocacy organisation, said these figures were a further indication of how BEE had failed in South Africa. “BEE has not closed the income between white and black,” he said. “In 1996, white income was 7.9 times higher than black income and in 2011 it was 7.7 times higher. “”

  • Ronald

    Sad to say that there is no norm (normal) anymore . . . or should I say there is no abnormal anymore. Maybe over time other so called no-no’s will become acceptable and a norm in our changing society. What defines neat and clean? Should I iron my uniform shirt? What defines acceptable body odour (with or without perfume)?

    Maybe the day will come that nudism (a minority life style) at work will weigh heavier than all the indecent exposure laws that exist.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Please read section 9(2) of the Constitution as well as Minister of Finance v Van Heerden.

  • http://www.joy-mari.com Joy-Mari

    So does the Rasta aspirant lawyer have a constitutional case, then? Aspirant lawyers may not smoke dagga.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
  • Gwebecimele

    http://www.thenewage.co.za/90423-1007-53-Nehawu_ball_back_in_manuels_court

    “…He is also not being honest when he wants us to pretend that apartheid never existed. His statement that we cannot ‘blame everything on apartheid anymore’ is dishonest,” said Pamla.

    “What he forgot to mention was that the current government has spent the last couple of years trying to reverse some of the disastrous policy positions that he championed as the Minister of Finance.”

    He said Manuel supported neo-liberal macro-economic policies, and privatisation, outsourcing and public-private partnerships that had proven “disastrous for the public sector”.

    He advocated a “lean and mean” state with no clear human resource strategies and, in the health sector, this resulted in reduced capacity to deliver services, said Pamla of the former trade and industry, and finance, minister.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Yup. I agree with Pamla.

    Clever Trevor has had to poop-scoop the ANC for a looooong time.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gwebe

    Gwebe is right. But I have a different point. Is it not time for Manuel to join his friends in the liberal DA, or at least get into to bed with the finger-pointing Ramphele? We cannot just abandon overnight the narrative that APARTHEID is to blame for everything. We will always defined by our history. As the wise man said: “You may be done with your past — but da past sure ain’t done with you!”

    Thanks.

    Thanks.

  • Mike

    @Lisbeth – The J an the H are right next to each other.Either finger trouble or interference with the cordless keyboard by the Boeings.

  • Mike

    @MDF – Ever heard of the saying that there are lies damend lies and then there are statistics.
    What you have presented is an argument that all blacks only earn R2,380 pm and all whites only R10,000 pm.
    I have sibling with two law degrees working for the department of justice in the High court doing the Judges research editing judgements and sometimes writing them earning R18,000pm at the age of 30.
    Would you like to comment on the fact that many black municipal employees with qualifications earn more than that per month.

  • Mike

    @MDF – Correction should be “no qualifications earn more than that per month.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Of course there are two sides to the coin.

    Is a short hair cut a requirement of the uniform of the service? It is in the military, where discipline is paramount. What is the difference with the correctional services then? Do they require discipline and uniformity?

    If yes, then it is quite within the remit of authorities to dictate the dress code and presentation of the employee. If they have not sufficiently defined other haircuts then that is another matter. The fact is, dreadlocks are distinguishable and identifiable. The danger to the servicemen of having them gripped by an inmate is actually quite real. One reason soldiers have short hair is so it does not get in the way. Same thing with correctional services, they deal with people who are often violent. Long hair is a disadvantage.

    I think the SCA is not wrong, religious freedom does not trump all comers. They are still free to be rastas, but if they want to be jail warder rastas they have to cut their hair.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Mike. the useless kunts responsible for what is euphemistically known as ‘the Joburg Billing Crisis’ are out on strike – they say they want ‘pay parity’?

    Obviously, that does not mean they want to be paid what they are worth!

  • Mike

    @MDF – I am still waiting for your reply.

  • Mike

    @Brett – Ja you are right. MDF argument is that your qualification and subsequent contribution should not come into the debate about what determines your pay it is simply in his opinion about the colour of your skin.
    It reminds me of unskilled workers in the construction industry not understanding that your earnings are increased by improving your skills and not by striking.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Mike, you are right.

    I now realise that to say that the study that says that the “median” monthly wage of African earners is R2,380 and that of white earners is R10,000, is actually saying that, to use your words “ALL blacks only earn R2,380 pm and all whites only R10,000.”

    Thanks very much for correcting my error!

  • Mike

    @MDF- The median wage for blacks is R2,380 because the median black worker is semi skilled.

  • Mike

    @MDF – So how does your argument disprove the fact that like for like qualification blacks are earning more than whites.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus died for our sins! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    April 5, 2013 at 13:06 pm

    Mike,

    “@Lisbeth – The J an the H are right next to each other.Either finger trouble or interference with the cordless keyboard by the Boeings.”

    Are you saying that “macjinery” does not translate to “Mac Jinery”?

    Damn – I just started using that to describe Mac Maharaj’s rather creative interpretations of Professor Zuma’s utterances!

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus died for our sins! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mike
    April 5, 2013 at 13:12 pm

    Mike

    “I have sibling with two law degrees”

    Hayibo – It comes as a surprise to me and Dworky that you and Dmwangi are brothers!

    Dworky – wdystt?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Mike

    “So how does your argument disprove the fact that like for like qualification blacks are earning more than whites”?

    Mike, I hasten to note that I agree completely with you.

    Someone less inclined to agree would point out that I never said anything one way or another about like qualifications etc. I simply cited a study showing that white median income is about three times that of Africans. It would, notionally, be fascinating if you could cite a study showing otherwise.

    Thanks very much indeed!

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Dworky, what you should be saying is that the fact that the median white earns 4,2 times what the median black worker does, in no way detracts from the argument that ‘nothing is changing’, that “BEE has not closed the income between white and black,” per Mr. John Endres, CEO of Good Governance Africa, a research and advocacy organisation (LOLOL! Where?).

    This is not an invitation to jerk out your calculator, or make sarcastic remarks pointing out “In 1996, white income was 7.9 times higher than black income and in 2011 it was 7.7 times higher. “

    We know that is higher than 4,2.

    Be warned – obsessing about those kinds of technicalities will be regarded as ‘tendencies, white tendencies’!

    We also do not need funny remarks about Gini being recorded in like 20 countries but not in former British homelands like Lesotho or Zimbabwe.

    Thank you.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    While I always inclined to agree with you, I cannot be absolutely sure I agree until you clarify this sentence as to what I “should be saying …”

    “what you should be saying is that the fact that the median white earns 4,2 times what the median black worker does, in no way detracts from the argument that ‘nothing is changing’,”

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Maggs will explain.

  • Maggs Naidu – Jesus died for our sins! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 5, 2013 at 16:19 pm

    Dworky,

    Brett suggests that 62% of WHITE people are ugly.

    I hope it’s clear now!

    p.s. and also WHITE people stole all the land.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “Our law does not require you to prove a discriminatory motive before finding that discrimination had taken place as it focuses on the effects of the actions and not on the motives for it. Moreover, our law also prohibits indirect discrimination which occurs when a seemingly neutral rule or code disproportionately affect the members of a specific group.”

    REALLY? Since when?

    “as it focuses on the effects of the actions and not on the motives for it.” What if the effect is that you (or “members of your group”) cannot find a job and the motive is a noble one i.e. to “redress the wrongs of the past”?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    April 4, 2013 at 17:49 pm

    I’m not surprised. UCT is one of those HE institutions that indoctrinates its students into the most abhorrent forms of “identity politics”. Apparently that is how one builds a new “non-racial” society. But if such an disgusting poll was conducted under Apartheid it would obviously be obnoxious.

    “The pie chart, titled “UCT votes on most attractive race”, lists the races as Caucasian, Indian, Coloured, African, Asian, and Mixed.”

    “According to Varsity News editor-in-chief, Alexandra Nagel, the article was a commentary on how race affects social structure in the post-apartheid era.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    So what the fuck would be the difference between “Coloured” and “Mixed” races. Excuse me for asking. And are “Indians” not “Asians” no more?

    Not that I really give a fuck.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    “until the colour of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes” – There is a WAR.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Mike/Brett/Ozone

    Last night a shiny new BMW drove past. Guess who was driving? An obviously incompetent black man! Next car was an old Honda (perhaps 2001), driven by a white man. That was when it finally dawned on me that those so-called “statistics” about whites earning 3 times more than blacks are nonsense!

  • Gwebecimele
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    My granny (who lives in Westville), mentioned that there are at least three miliion whites living under scraps of corrugated iron bound together with twigs and old wire in Kloof gorge? Do you know anything about this?

    Thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 6, 2013 at 9:55 am

    He he. It seems I have got you thinking and may I say a slight bit obsessed. But the facts remain unchallenged.

    “Is it possible that there may be a subliminal aspiration to Cape Town’s upper-crust lifestyle – a closely guarded enclave of the rich, mainly white – by similarly rich, ambitious and perhaps greedy black sushi-eating elites who seek to take control of this socio-economic class? Is there a possibility that once again the “Holy Transformation” argument and the inevitable race card is being cunningly and selfishly used by narrow class interests for dominance, not for equality or justice but for replacement rather than transformation? Who really stands to benefit from this race rhetoric aimed at Cape Town? Will the poor people of Khayelitsha, Gugulethu or Mitchells Plein really see any material change to their economic conditions, or do the results of such complaints only benefit the well heeled? Could this be the sour grapes of black middle- class prima donnas hell-bent on forcing a specific version of transformation and integration on Cape Town that will benefit them and them alone? ”

    http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2012-12-11-cape-town-racist-or-a-bad-case-of-black-middle-class-sour-grapes/#.UV_aQtdvUVY

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    @mfd

    Hey mfd – please explain:

    “Who really stands to benefit from this race rhetoric …”

    Are you another agent?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    I tell you who is benefiting.

    The South African Institute of Race Relations

    “The Institute is an independent think-tank producing research, policy critiques, and risk analysis on South Africa. Our fields of expertise include the economy, business, labour, education, demographics, living conditions, crime, security, healthcare, land reform, service delivery, politics, and government affairs. We benchmark ourselves on telling our subscribers today what they will read in the media in two or three years’ time. ”

    http://www.sairr.org.za/profile/sponsors-and-donors

    Core support

    “Royal Belgian Embassy

    Anglo American Chairman’s Fund

    Oppenheimer Memorial Trust

    FirstRand Foundation

    Elisabeth Bradley Trust”

    “… to work for peace, goodwill, and practical co-operation between the various sections and races of the population of South Africa”

    And now the UCT brainwashed backed by their army of White liberals have discovered even more “races”. Or perhaps they are busy “constructing” them, as if we don’t have enough already?

    Caucasian, Indian, Coloured, African, Asian, Mixed.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Ozoneboy and Mike, have you heard about the 155 Afrikaans refugees living in a septic tank near Umkomaas? They apparently have a median income of minus-R2500!

    And they say blacks are poor!

    Thanks

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 6, 2013 at 13:30 pm

    Hey. mfd – I don’t know. Would those “Afrikaans” be Caucasian, Coloured, African or Mixed?

    Perhaps they are confused like Happy Sindane about what they are and need the identity politicians and academic race experts from UCT/SAIIR to help clarify things. Perhaps a simple pencil test would do?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Ozoneguy

    “Would those “Afrikaans” be Caucasian, Coloured, African or Mixed?”

    So far as I know, all are classified as WHITISH. That is why they were fired by Transnet, and replaced by blacks who are less qualified!

    Thanks.

  • Dmwangi

    So if a correctional officer who is member of the pink mafia religion/culture insists on wearing a pink skirt, rainbow scarf, and red make-up, is he allowed to? It is, of course, an “outward manifestation” of his “religious” beliefs and identity.

    Or, given the nature of his job, would this be too much of a threat to prison order and safety?

  • joeslis

    Dmwangi
    April 6, 2013 at 16:21 pm

    :-D

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 6, 2013 at 10:01 am

    Hey Dworky,

    If your granny can see Kloof gorge from her verandah in Westville then maybe she has the same talent for foreign affairs as Ms Palin – what say you that we put her name forward as ambassador to CAR?

    p.s. Please help me with rating of beauty by race.

    Rate the following where 1 is really, really ugly (like Dmwangi or OB) – 10 is really, really gorgeous (like me). You and Brett can be “median”.

    African 1, 2 or 3 ___
    Indian 3, 4, or 5 ___
    Coloured 5, 6 or 7 ___
    Other Coloured (aka mixed race) (ignore)
    Asian (ignore)
    White (aka Caucasian) 8, 9 or 10 ___

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Ozoneblue
    April 6, 2013 at 13:49 pm

    Hey OB,

    “Perhaps a simple pencil test would do?”

    I got a pencil test for you.

    But this is a family blog so I cannot tell you where to stick it!

    :P

  • joeslis

    Maggs –

    Some fairly recent ancestors of mine were Roma, who are said to have originated in Northern India. Although I could pass for ‘whitish’, I’m now wondering if I’m really ‘mixed’.

    Could you possibly clear this up for me, O Wise One?

    Many thanks.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    April 6, 2013 at 19:03 pm

    “But this is a family blog so I cannot tell you where to stick it!”

    he he.

    So That is why our pencil tests always come out brownish!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Bob Marley – ja -man.,

    Da tribe of Judah.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFvuo41AoMU

    I say there will be WAR.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    You see things are not the way they used to be. I won’t tell now lie. One and all have to face reality now.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISaqFAKTh7I

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    April 6, 2013 at 9:55 am

    That’s amazing! Last time I went to buy pigeon food in Newlands a shiny new BMW drove past on the left. Guess who was driving? An obviously incompetent black man! Perhaps it was your guy! Next car was an old Honda (perhaps 2001), driven by a white man. That was when a little black kid came flying past the old car. Head high! Never seen anything like it! Like a rag.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com) says:
    April 6, 2013 at 19:00 pm

    Maggs is scared the brain-dead kids at UCT – who are such a poor reflection on the inspirational or conscientising powers of their lecturers, I must add – conduct a poll of the desirability of the menfolk on the campus next.

    (Maggs’ people are a bit femme, you see?)

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    joeslis
    April 6, 2013 at 20:02 pm

    Joeslis,

    There are simple tests of determining race.

    Are you impressed by Dmwangi? If yes then you are WHITE.

    Do you practice UBUNTU? If yes then you are an AFRICAN – all Africans everywhere practice UBUNTU.

    Are you a rent-seeking Indian (terrified at the thought of Idi Amin)? If yes you may be an Indian. p.s. It will help if you like bunny chow.

    (real p.s. these tests are the property of DM – his permission is needed to publish it).

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 6, 2013 at 23:33 pm

    Hey Brett – I am conducting a poll. Please contribute generously.

    1. On a scale of 1 to 10, how UGLY are WHITE people?

    (1 is very ugly, 10 is very ugly!)

    2. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much land did WHITE people steal.

    (1 is ALL the land, 10 is ALL the land)

    3. On a scale of 1 to 10, how racist are WHITE people?

    (1 is very racist, 10 is very racist).

    p.s. There’s no right answer so select at random if you’re confused as usual.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, with respect, none of your so-called “tests” capture the grim socio-economic dimension of being whitish in contemporary SA. That is why I suggest the following additional question; a positive answer to any one weighs in the direction of whiteness:

    “Do you live in a

    a. Shack.

    b. Hovel.

    c. Septic tank

    d. Hole in the ground.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    That is an improvement on your last questionnaire, my dear Maggs, which had black people at the bottom of the heap.

    You remind me of my ex-friend Jody who came back from her first visit to Israel to tell me how ugly Palestinian people are.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Warning!!! Long. SO hit your delete button or scroll that mouse if you do not want

    Nitty-gritty on where and how the ANC are making SA FUBAR:

    http://www.sake24.com/Ekonomie/Drie-groot-SA-stede-is-wankelend-20130405

    Drie groot SA stede is wankelend
    Apr 07 2013 05:30 Antoinette Slabbert

    Pretoria. – Die geldsake van drie van die land se agt metrorade is op wankelrige bene.

    Johannesburg, wat ’n groot en sleutelrol in die landsekonomie speel, en Tshwane, die setel van die regering, het die swakste gevaar in Ratings Afrika se jongste indeks oor finansiële stabiliteit. Mangaung, wat die Vrystaatse hoofstad, Bloemfontein, insluit, se geldsake is naas dié twee die onstabielste.

    Drie metrorade – Buffalostad (Oos-Londen), Kaapstad en Ekurhuleni – staan stewig – en twee metrorade – eThekwini (Durban) en Nelson Man­delabaai (Port Elizabeth) –­ het niks om oor te spog nie, maar kan darem nog die bankbestuurder in die oë kyk.

    Dít is die bevindings van Ratings Afrika, wat die metrorade se geouditeerde finansiële state vir die vorige boekjaar ontleed het. Dié state strek tot einde Junie 2012, maar was eers in ­Februarie almal beskikbaar vir die ontleding, wat pas voltooi is.

    Leon Claassen, ’n ontleder by Ratings Afrika, sê meer as 20 miljoen Suid-Afrikaners (byna 40% van die bevolking) woon in dié stede. Hulle speel ’n groot rol in die ekonomie van die land en die finansiële stabiliteit van die ­metrorade bepaal of dienste op ’n volhoubare wyse gelewer kan word.

    Suid-Afrikaanse munisipaliteite is self verantwoordelik om tot 80% van hul inkomste te genereer, in teenstelling met hul buitelandse eweknieë wat meer van hul sentrale regering kry, sê Claassen. Dit beteken dat die plaaslike owerhede se geldsake nou verwant is aan die welvaart van die plaaslike onder­nemings en nywerhede.

    ’n Groot deel van munisipaliteite se uitgawes is vaste koste en personeelkoste is ’n belangrike deel. Die koste van personeel en raadslede vir al die metro’s tesame het in die boekjaar byna R34 miljard beloop en was gemiddeld 40% van bedryfskoste. Die persentasie het die afgelope drie jaar stelselmatig gegroei, sê Claassen, wat toon dat produktiwiteit daal. Hy meen die metrorade moet dringend hier briek aandraai.

    Die metrorade bestee gemiddeld 9,5% van hul bedryfsuitgawes aan herstel en instandhouding. Dít is volgens Claassen te min as ’n mens die bestaande agterstande in ag neem.

    Die gesukkel om verbruikerskuld in te vorder, strem die metrorade se kontantvloei. Dít lê hul vermoë aan bande om diens te lewer en infrastruktuur te skep en in stand te hou, sê Claassen. Dit is ’n belangrike faktor wat Mangaung, Johannesburg en Tshwane se ­finansiële stabiliteit bedreig.

    Die agt metrorade het saam R44,3 miljard se lenings. Johannesburg en Tshwane het naas eThekwini die grootste skuldlaste. eThekwini se goeie kontantvloei en kontantbeleggings verminder egter sy risiko, sê Claassen.

    Johannesburg is die rykste stad en sy inwoners het die hoogste gemiddelde huishoudelike inkomste per jaar, naamlik R183 247. ’n Mens sou dus verwag dat hy finansieel die sterkste sou staan. Die rooi ligte flikker egter sterk vir die Goudstad, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die grootste probleem is Johannesburg se swak kontantvloei, wat spruit uit probleme met sy rekeningstelsel. Die stad werk hard om dit reg te ruk, maar ten spyte van goeie vordering bly die stad se finansiële stabiliteit laag. Hy het in die vorige boekjaar ’n tekort van R607 miljoen getoon op sy bedryfskapitaal.

    Die stad se hoë skuldlas volg op groot beleggings in infrastruktuur die afgelope paar jaar, maar word darem afgewerk. Johannesburg se besonder lae besteding aan herstel en instandhouding is waarskynlik ’n gevolg van sy gebrekkige kontantvloei. Dít hou ’n groot risiko in dat infrastruktuur kan ingee en dienslewering benadeel.

    As eThekwini (Durban) se geldsake so aanhou verbeter, kan hy in die toekoms die groen lig kry vir finansiële stabiliteit, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die grootste remskoen is sy groot skuldlas wat op 83,1% van bedryfsinkomste die hoogste van al die metro’s s’n is. Dít is te wyte aan eThekwini se belegging van R13,5 miljard in infrastruktuur die afgelope drie jaar.

    Die stad se kontantvloei was nie­temin verlede jaar positief. Uitgawes haal inkomste in, sê Claassen. Personeelkoste is hoog en styg steeds.

    Die metroraad het die afgelope paar jaar goed gevaar met die invordering van sy verbruikerskuld en die afgelope twee jaar ’n besonder hoë invorderingskoers van 97% behaal.

    eThekwini het genoeg kontant om sy verpligtinge, wat die terugbetaling van lenings insluit, op kort termyn na te kom, sê Claassen.

    Kapenaars kan tevrede voel dat hul metroraad finansieel stabiel is, sê ­Leon Claassen by Ratings Afrika.

    Sy posisie het sedert 2008 stelselmatig verbeter en is tans die beste van al die metro’s. Dit lyk boonop of die stad die situasie die volgende paar jaar sal kan handhaaf. Kaapstad het sy kapitaalbesteding in die vorige boekjaar tot R4,3 miljard verhoog en kon dit sonder verdere lenings finansier. Sy besteding aan herstel en instandhouding is ook verhoog, wat toon dat hy op die gehalte van infrastruktuur en dienslewering fokus.

    Die personeelkoste is hoog en styg steeds, waarsku Claassen.

    Die metroraad bestuur sy likiditeit en kontantvloei besonder goed en het genoeg kontant om sy verpligtinge na te kom en lenings te delg. Hy kan selfs ’n bietjie meer leen as dit nodig is.

    Buffalo City, wat Oos-Londen en omgewing bedien, is finansieel stabiel, maar sukkel op bedryfsvlak, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die metro se eie inkomste het nie sy bedryfsuitgawes in die boekjaar gedek nie. Claassen sê dit kan dui ’n gebrekkige begroting, tariewe wat te laag is of uitgawes wat te hoog is.

    Besteding aan herstel en instandhouding is verhoog tot 8,3% van die bedryfskoste. Personeelkoste is hoog.

    Die stad het in die vorige boekjaar sy finansiële posisie verstewig deur kapitaalbesteding in te kort en het sy lenings so fluks terugbetaal, dat hy ruimte het om weer te leen as dit nodig is.

    Die invorderingskoers het effens verswak en as dit voortduur kan dit Buffalo City se finansiële stabiliteit bedreig. Die stad het genoeg kontant om sy verpligtinge na te kom.

    Bloemfonteiners het rede tot kommer omdat die Mangaung-metroraad se finansiële stabiliteit hardnekkig swak bly, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die invorderingskoers vir verbruikerskuld het dramaties verswak van 90% in die vorige boekjaar tot 72% in die 2012-boekjaar. Dit is te laag om volhoubaar voort te bestaan, sê Claassen.

    Mangaung het nietemin die afgelope drie jaar groot kapitaalbesteding gedoen en moes geld leen daarvoor.

    Die metroraad se vlak van lenings is laag, maar weens sy swak likiditeit kan hy nie meer leen nie. Claassen sê Mangaung het die afgelope vyf jaar telkens ’n bedryfstekort en het ’n behoorlik gefinansierde bedryfs- en kapitaalbegroting nodig.

    Voorsiening vir herstel en instandhouding is aan die lae kant, en personeelkoste is nie buitensporig nie.

    Pretorianers het rede om wakker te lê oor die finansiële stabiliteit van die Tshwane-metroraad, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die metroraad se geldsake is al die afgelope drie boekjare wankelrig en kom nie reg nie, maar hy leen al hoe meer en sy personeelkoste is heelwat hoër as die gemiddelde.

    Tshwane vaar die swakste van al die metrorade in Ratings Afrika se indeks van finansiële stabiliteit.

    Tshwane het in die vorige boekjaar R4,5 miljard aan kapitaalprojekte bestee, wat hoog is. Teen die einde van die boekjaar het sy lenings R6,7 miljard beloop, wat byna 60% van sy bedryfsuitgawes is – van die heel hoogste onder die metrorade.

    Sedertdien het die metroraad nog R1,38 miljard se effekte uitgereik wat vandeesweek op die JSE genoteer is. Dit verhoog Tshwane se skuldvlak verder tot 63%.

    Claassen sê Tshwane het geen oorskot-kontant om sy risiko te beperk nie en daar is geen buffers as iets onvoorsiens gebeur nie.

    Die verhoogde skuld gaan sy finansieringskoste verhoog en dus ook sy tariewe en dit gaan verdere druk op sy bedryfsbegroting en invorderings plaas. Die raad sukkel toenemend om sy verbruikerskuld in te vorder, wat verdere druk op sy likiditeit en kontantvloei plaas.

    Claassen sê Tshwane het verlede jaar ’n tekort van sowat R602 miljoen op sy bedryfskapitaal getoon en dít het na die jaareinde verder verswak.

    Dít laat twyfel of Tshwane sy korttermyn-verpligtinge kan nakom.

    Ekurhuleni aan die Oos-Rand sluit die O.R. Tambo-lughawe in. Hy het ver­lede jaar begin met die herstel van sy finansiële stabiliteit en is tans onder die drie stabielste metrorade.

    Volgens Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika, het Ekurhuleni die afgelope drie jaar rofweg R2 miljard per jaar aan kapitaalprojekte bestee. In die vorige boekjaar kon hy dit sonder verdere lenings doen en het sodoende sy finansiële posisie versterk. Die swakker deel van sy mondering is die bestuur van sy inkomste en uitgawes. Ekurhuleni het die afgelope drie jaar meer as die gemiddelde aan herstel en instandhouding bestee en die afgelope boekjaar sy personeelkoste drasties verminder.

    Die metroraad het in die verlede nie sommer groot bedrae geleen nie, maar sedert 2008 het hy R3,5 miljard se finansiering verkry. Sy skuldvlakke is hanteerbaar maar relatief hoog, sê Claassen. Ten spyte van ’n groot afskrywing van slegte skuld het die metroraad sy invorderingskoers verbeter en sy kontantreserwes het gegroei.

    Nelson Mandelabaai het homself uit die finansiële gevaarsone gelig, maar staan nog steeds nie heeltemal stewig nie, sê Leon Claassen, ontleder by Ratings Afrika.

    Die metroraad het sy kapitaal­besteding verminder van die vorige twee boekjare se hoë vlakke en het nie nodig gehad om meer te leen nie.

    Sy bedryfsverlies in die vorige boekjaar is omskep in ’n oorskot van R563 miljoen. Dít is danksy ’n skerp styging in tariewe.

    Nelson Mandelabaai maak voldoende voorsiening vir herstel en instandhouding en sy personeelkoste is gematig. Die metroraad het R77 miljoen se lenings terugbetaal en sy skuld na ’n matige vlak teruggebring.

    Likiditeit het verbeter, maar is nog nie goed nie, sê Claassen. Die invordering van verbruikerskuld, wat voorheen wisselvallig was, het verbeter tot 94%. Dít is die sleutel tot verdere verbeteringe in Nelson Mandelabaai se finansiële stabiliteit, meen hy.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 7, 2013 at 9:18 am

    I have better plan.

    a positive answer to only one question classifies you as:

    1) “Do you earn below R 24 000 a year ?”

    You don’t exist.

    2) “Do you earn above R 24 000 and below R 300 000 a year ?”

    Black.

    3) “Do you earn above R 300 000 a year ?”

    White.

    4) “Do you earn above R 500 000 and below R 1 200 000 a year ? ?”

    British.

    5) 3) “Do you earn above R 1 200 000 a year ?”

    Jewish/Indian.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    So from the above category 1)

    – Happy Sindane, those drunken [Afrikaans] Coloureds slaving on WC farms simply and these apparitions simply don’t exist.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-j24yWhNQs

  • Maggs Naidu – (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 7, 2013 at 9:31 am

    Hawu Brett,

    “That is an improvement on your last questionnaire, my dear Maggs, which had black people at the bottom of the heap.”

    According to a recent scientific study conducted by a top research team from UCT, Black people are ugly!

    Here’s how the questionnaire was structured :

    a) are some Black people ugly?
    b) are some White people good looking?

    75% of respondents answered “yes” to (a)
    38% of respondents answered “yes” to (b)

    So there you have it, in BLACK and WHITE, that Black people are ugly!

    WDYSTT?

    p.s. next to question (a) was a picture of Dmwangi!

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 7, 2013 at 9:18 am

    Dworky,

    Shut up.

    Everyone knows that White people don’t live in shacks.

    Only Black people live in shacks.

    Even Minister Sexwale who is half White (ok was only half White) lived in a shack.

    For ONE whole day – er, one whole night – oh well, part of the night.

    That was a traumatic experience for him – “Never, never and never again” he bawled, borrowing from Mandela in full form, “shall our people live in such appalling conditions.

    He immediately set about instructing all and sundry to fix up the horrible conditions under which our people live.

    Civil servants, ministers, directors general gathered in great numbers; conferences were convened; plans were made; teams were spurred into action.

    With the rapidity last seen when our country was ceded to FIFA, buildings of splendour rose everywhere – it was a miracle.

    And that folks is how the Nkandla Compound and a better life for “all those who live in it” came into being.

    p.s. As for those living in squalor everywhere – well FUCK THE POOR!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “Everyone knows that White people don’t live in shacks.”

    Maggs, with respect, my maternal granny has been living since 2000 in the bottom of my garden, under a piece of tarpaulin supported by a stout branches. She was laid off and replaced by an incompetent black who get 2X what she used to earn!

    How do you explain that?

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 7, 2013 at 20:58 pm

    Dworky,

    Need I remind you that “(t)his blog deals with political and social issues in South Africa, mostly from the perspective of Constitutional Law. Written by Pierre de Vos”.

    If you want to give us your granny’s stories, you should start your own satellite blog.

    You could call it “Nani ka halwa” – i.e. Your Granny’s sweat meats!

    WDYSTT?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Maggs, horses sweat – grannies perspire!

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    oops – well spotted Brett.

    Dworky – make that “Granny’s sweetmeats!”

    Although it may well be that in the circumstances your maternal granny is a little hoarse.

  • Alibama

    | This was obviously legal nonsense. Our law does not require you to prove
    | a discriminatory motive before finding that discrimination had taken place
    | as it focuses on the effects of the actions and not on the motives for it.
    |
    This seems wrong: Laws aim to direct citizens’ actions. Actions are determined
    by motives. An elementary principle of ALL law is that unintended consequences
    can’t be legislated against.

    |Moreover, our law also prohibits indirect discrimination which occurs
    |when a seemingly neutral rule…
    |
    This Is consistent with PdV’s previous claim. I.e. the legislators decided they
    need not consider motive nor any complex multistage path that leads to [what
    they would decide WAS discrimination] was illegal.
    ==
    |After dropping this patently silly argument, the Department proffered new
    | reasons for the discrimination.
    =
    How did they ‘drop’ it? Was that done in their later application’s affidavit?
    Have you seen the record ? can *I* see the record ?
    ==
    | The Department then came up with a new excuse for discriminating against
    | officers because of their religion and their culture; that the real
    | problem was not the dreadlocks,
    |#
    How are they allowed to give NEW reasons, when I as a pro se must
    give all possible reasons before the first hearing, or was this
    all argued in the affidavits BEFORE the hearing?
    And NEW reasons can’t be brought when moving to a higher Court?

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Alibama

    “An elementary principle of ALL law is that unintended consequences
    can’t be legislated against.”

    Alibama, much of U.S. discrimination is directed at “unintended” discrimination, under the disparate impact doctrine. E.g., a voting reg. that only those with more than $30,000 income may vote is racial discrimination, irrespective of whether the legislature intended it — because a larger proportion of blacks have incomes of less than $30,000. Also, you are wrong is saying that law does not target unintended consequences; you can be fined for parking in a no-parking zone irrespective of whether you intended to. Mens rea in the form of culpa is not required for most regulatory offences.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele

    Comments below are good indication of how united we are about crime.

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Top-ANC-MP-in-brutal-home-attack-20130408

  • Gwebecimele
  • Gwebecimele
  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    My word! One can’t take these crudesters from the ANC anywhere!

    Last week it was Cde Jackson claiming those who maintain Cde Beloved President is bullsh1tting about SA’s involvement in the CAR are pissing on the graves of our slain soldiers, this morning I had to read Fransman accusing the DA of underwhelming silence (ki ki ki!) on Politicsweb now it is Cde Godfather promising Marikana 2.0!

    Dworky, I was going to explain to Fransman what a m-a-l-a-p-r-o-p-i-s-m is when I heard my friend Dan Khumalo shriek from the past “Illiterates!!!??? You can’t tell them a THING, Madoda! They don’t listen. They don’t think. They don’t learn.”

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 10:04 am

    So is *intended* discrimination ok then. Lets say White trash ends up in squatter camp because they cannot find a job?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Gwebecimele
    April 8, 2013 at 10:15 am

    “Jou ma se rugby, van die kaap.”

    So how do you like to classify them gwebs. Coloured or “Mixed”? We know real Africans do not get violently drunk and support the Boks.

    http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/why-i-support-the-crusaders-1.1494658

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 10:04 am

    “E.g., a voting reg. that only those with more than $30,000 income may vote is racial discrimination, irrespective of whether the legislature intended it — because a larger proportion of blacks have incomes of less than $30,000.”

    So are you in fact saying that White trash do not even qualify for any sympathy, consideration or for the franchise because they are not Black?

    Poverty More than a Matter of Black and White

    “This elevated risk reflects past and current institutional practices that put blacks and other minorities at a disadvantage. But it’s also true that almost three-quarters of black incomes do not fall below the poverty line. Collapsing poor and black as if all poor were black and all blacks poor turns the “poverty” problem into a “race” problem.

    The white poverty rate does run much lower than the black rate, just under 10 percent, one-third of the black rate. But the white poor outnumber the black poor considerably, 19 to 7.8 million. White people make up 42 percent of America’s poor, black people about 28 percent.

    The basic numbers don’t change when we look at people living in extreme poverty, in households making less than 50 percent of the meager poverty line. Of the 20 million people who live at this alarming level of want and deprivation, about 42 percent are white, 27 percent black.”

    http://inequality.org/poverty-matter-black-white/

  • Michael Osborne

    Ozoneblue, no, intended discrimination may also be unlawful. I assume though you are referring to affirmative action. But the fact is that s. 8(2) specifically permits AA, so the courts have no option but to uphold it, subject to certain conditions. If you don’t like AA, amend the Constitution.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 15:00 pm

    “But the fact is that s. 8(2) specifically permits AA, so the courts have no option but to uphold it, subject to certain conditions. If you don’t like AA, amend the Constitution.”

    Where does it say in s. 8(2) or anywhere else in our Constitution that White or any other race of people must be discriminated against. ?

    Please clarify.

  • Michael Osborne

    Ozoneblue, there are relatively few things constitutional lawyers can agree upon, and one is that s 8(2) means that AA is permitted. (Note that it is not a “must”, as you say, but a “may.”) Note that I am against some AA as implemented, but it does not help to pretend that AA was not exactly what the framers of s. 8(2) permits. It is not a matter of interpretation, like the death penalty decision.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozoneblue (quoting US article)

    “The white poverty rate [in the US] does run much lower than the black rate, just under 10 percent, one-third of the black rate.”

    I don’t know, a differential of 3X strikes me as quite a lot …

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 15:48 pm

    “is that s 8(2) means that AA is permitted.”

    Oh, but AA can be implemented in many ways and on many different group descriptions. AA can be implemented to advance Rastafarians, Muslims, handicapped people or it can be implemented to advance poor people from Mitchells plain into WC government jobs (including DCS).

    Nowhere have you or any of your lawyers/judge types indicated yet that the Constitution prescribes that AA should be used to discriminate against White people or any socalled “race”, and even fucking worse that this unapologetic racism should become entrenched in our laws.

    That is all of your own conjecture.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Anybody else find the UCT attractiveness survey reaction hilarious because of the stupidity displayed?

    If everyone kept to their own each would be rated at 16.7%. So are above that marker, some below.

    All we know is some folks find those different more attractive than those who are the same. Big deal.

  • Michael Osborne

    Ozoneblue, s 9(2) refers to “categories of person.” Now you may not like it, but the fact is that is “race” is a “category of person.” The category may be difficult to define with precision, but that does not mean it is not a category. (You mention “handicapped” persons as category. That too is also not easy to define, since there is legitimate debate as to who counts as “handicapped.” But that does not mean it is not a “category.”

  • Zoo Keeper

    MO

    Do you know if anyone has challenged a racial definition? Or will OB be the first one to give it a go? :)

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 16:12 pm

    “Ozoneblue, s 9(2) refers to “categories of person.” Now you may not like it, but the fact is that is “race” is a “category of person.” The category may be difficult to define with precision, but that does not mean it is not a category.”

    But if that is the case, if it is arbitrary and without any real scientific foundation (aka pencil test as in Apartheid) – how can it be described as “fair”. How can it ever be FAIR, ether now or back under Apartheid, to deny somebody a job and condemn them to poverty because of the ostensible colour of his/her skin?

    “No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.”

  • Michael Osborne

    Ozoneblue, as I pointed out, the word “handicapped”, which you yourself cited as an example of a category, also has no “scientific” definition. It is a loose term, used colloquially on a case by case basis, for a wide range of physical and mental disabilities. If someone comes to court claiming discrimination on the basis of disability, there may well be a debate as to whether he falls within the category.

    For better or worse, the Const uses the term “race” in s. 9. If you don’t like it – and I have some sympathy with your view as a matter of principle – lobby for an amendment.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    A moment’s thought, please, for what the UK would have looked like had it not been for Margaret Thatcher…..

    Devastated by trade unionists and other Reds.

  • Zoo Keeper

    Brett

    I visited the UK in the early 1980s and the place was a mess. Young folk clamoured to get the heck out of dodge.

    Labour never forgave her for showing their stupidity to the world: “The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples’ money”.

    We still suffer their stupidity however.

  • Lisbeth

    @ Michael Osborne

    “… the fact is that is “race” is a “category of person”

    In his 2012 State of the Nation Address, President Zuma reminded us all that –

    “Therefore, the Constitution is founded on the values that ANC stands for, that of non-racialism, non-sexism, respect of human rights and prosperity for all.”

    It follows that neither race or gender, at least, were meant to appear in the (non-existent) list of “categories of person”.

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    April 8, 2013 at 18:23 pm

    Hawu Lisbeth,

    “In his 2012 State of the Nation Address, President Zuma reminded us all that …”

    Quoting Professor Zuma is scraping the bottom of the “people to quote” barrel – you might as well quote OB or Dmwangi.

    Despite his claims otherwise he really doesn’t know what he is doing (or saying)!

    Do let me know if you would like a few quotes to show how silly he is.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Lisbeth

    Under the doctrine of separation of powers, the fact that the President makes a pronouncement one way or another is of no relevance. He makes statements all the time that many believe to be contrary to the Constitution.

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs, Michael:

    My comment was meant to be entirely tongue-in-cheek. Zuma is our president … what he says, goes …

    Seriously, though: people should be categorised by which letter their surnames start with.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Limo

    “I searched for kidzone party bus on Lycos and ended up on your website”

    Maggs, how on earth could anyone searching for “kidzone” end up finding this blog?

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Sounds to me like Kleinschmidt having a dig at you kids. Again.

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 8, 2013 at 20:28 pm

    Dworky,

    “I searched for kidzone party bus on Lycos and ended up on your website”

    That’s nothing – I was searching for the tuck shop and ended up in the cattle tunnel!

    WDYSTT?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 8, 2013 at 17:13 pm

    “A moment’s thought, please, for what the UK would have looked like had it not been for Margaret Thatcher…..

    Devastated by trade unionists and other Reds.”

    Thank you Brett. We all know by now what you really stand for and what your pretences are.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 17:02 pm

    “Ozoneblue, as I pointed out, the word “handicapped”, which you yourself cited as an example of a category, also has no “scientific” definition. It is a loose term, used colloquially on a case by case basis, for a wide range of physical and mental disabilities. If someone comes to court claiming discrimination on the basis of disability, there may well be a debate as to whether he falls within the category.”

    So you first of all believe in the “categories” and secondly believe the “categories” can be applied “fairly” ?

  • Maggs Naidu – ! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    April 8, 2013 at 18:57 pm

    Lisbeth,

    “Seriously, though: people should be categorised by which letter their surnames start with.”

    Hmmm!

    So if your surname starts with “Z” then you should be the leader of your political party.

    If your surname starts with “M” then you could be a former President.

    It’s such a racist idea.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    I Yah man.

    I guess we will have to shoot the sheriff again (one more time).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrnZSLwfzVs

    But they will NEVER defeat us.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Pierre, why do you insist on retweeting Nomboniso Gasa at us?

    I could give a rats azz what dear Ms Gasa thinks about Margaret Thatcher.

    I’ll bet no R10m of her people’s hard-earned disappeared from any body Mrs Thatcher sat on….

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Why has this not happened at Africa’s flagship city?

    http://afrikaans.news24.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Zuma-gryp-self-in-by-munisipaliteit-20130408

    Why has no-one been fired in 3 1/2 years of ‘Joburg Billing Crisis’?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 8, 2013 at 21:49 pm

    Dear Brett.

    We are all really interested in what Meryl Streep has to say.

    But who the fuck is Meryl Streep?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ9myHhpS9s

  • Michael Osborne

    @ OzoneBlue

    “So you first of all believe in the “categories” and secondly believe the “categories” can be applied “fairly” ?

    Yes. Like it or not, the Const creates categories. Somehow, they have to be applied fairly – even if there are no watertight definitions.

    I repeat my question as to the “handicapped,”, a category that you do seem to think could be applied fairly. Is there an objective definition of disability, or the relative degree thereof? No. But we are stuck with the category, so long as we have the const in its current form.

  • sirjay jonson

    I for one am curious, what the prof thinks of this debate not to appoint white males to the bench. One comment on eNCA was that whites have never been discriminated against (obviously referring to SA). How does that factor? Further I would suggest whites have and are being discriminated against daily in this country.

    Ignorance is such bliss. Would that we not recognize truth at times. Perhaps those of us with conscience should question occasionally, ‘are we part of the solution or part of the problem?’

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 22:09 pm

    “I repeat my question as to the “handicapped,”, a category that you do seem to think could be applied fairly. Is there an objective definition of disability, or the relative degree thereof?”

    No. I believe there are “categories” but they are not rigidly cast in stone nor are they to be imposed by virtue of draconian laws.

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 17:02 pm

    “It is a loose term, used colloquially on a case by case basis,”

    i.e. Today you may be a “privileged White”. Tomorrow you may be “White trash” begging on the streets for a living.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Albert

    “Exactly how did you have the ability to construct a real excellent audience of commenters to your site?”

    This is a question I am sure Pierre asks himself every day.

    Thanks.

  • sirjay jonson

    It appears to me that in SA, whites are responsible for all that ills which confront us. ‘They are wealthy, they have stolen everything from us': This attitude is similar to the self serving exploitive hatred by the Nazis for the Jews… lest we forget.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Ozoneblue

    “I believe there are “categories” but they are not rigidly cast in stone nor are they to be imposed by virtue of draconian laws.”

    Yes. And that is why courts have struck down some (but by no means all), AA programs that they deem to be rigidly cast in stone and draconian.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Sirjay, you have to couple that blame motiff to a complete refusal to take any kind of personal responsibility by the black South African population which increased 10x in number during the twentieth century and tripled from 1978 – 2010.

    It is hard to see how huge inequality was not the only possible outcome.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Michael Osborne
    April 8, 2013 at 23:04 pm

    @ Ozoneblue

    “I believe there are “categories” but they are not rigidly cast in stone nor are they to be imposed by virtue of draconian laws.”

    Yes. And that is why courts have struck down some (but by no means all), AA programs that they deem to be rigidly cast in stone and draconian.

    So how come we have close to 1 mil Whites in squatter camps now? Cause they can’t afford the courts and the army of lawyers and judges to rescue them from “AA programs that they deem to be rigidly cast in stone and draconian”

    WTF has happened to the basic concept of decency and “human rights”?

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Well said, that man!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?
    April 8, 2013 at 23:21 pm

    “Well said, that man!”

    Never mind the bollocks. Now here we see the happy, smiling face of the bona fide privileged White.

    http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/195/e2689bb5d6a647ba8e48f7de18745848.jpg

    And you know why he is smiling?

    Cause he earns much more than over 500000k a month. And he is so much more morally superior than the plain White trash that had to give up their “White privilege” to AA programs that he believes the Holy Constitution demands.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Correction.

    Cause he earns much more than over 500000k a year.

  • Brett Nortje – 19 years of ANC rule! Is South Africa FUBAR?

    Nou gaan ek nagmerries he. Jy maak nie mens so skrik net voor slaaptyd nie!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ OzoneBlue

    “Close to 1 mil whites in squatter camps”

    OB, it saddens me that people continue their DENIALISM of whitish poverty. I know for a fact that there are more than 375,000 white children living in small caves their parents have dug for them in mine dumps near Boksburg!

    WDYSTT?

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Ozoneblue

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    April 9, 2013 at 0:43 am

    The good thing Michael is that the 1 mil White trash can know that White liberals and their middle class compatriots that “eats for them”. Much like our dominant and morally corrupt ruling Black middle class “eats for” their poor Black brothers we can all smile like Pierre.

    The only difference is of course that no decent human being refers to poor Blacks as “trash”, or deny their existence, or try to avoid the topic all together, luckily theres lot of concern about them and in SA they have a government with the full might of the state and the social support that represents their interests.

    WHITE TRASH in SA on the other hand, just like in the USA they simply don’t exist.

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