Constitutional Hill

Why the criminalisation of consensual sexual exploration between teenagers is unconstitutional

Is it in the best interest of children to turn up to 80% of them into potential criminals? Is it constitutionally acceptable for teachers, principals and parents to abdicate their responsibility to educate children about sexual matters by potentially criminalising all forms of kissing, cuddling, touching and other forms of sexual exploration between children, despite the fact that such behaviour are ordinarily associated with the normal physical and emotional development of children? Thankfully, Judge Piere Rabie of the North Gauteng High Court this week ruled that it would not. Predictably, the sexual perverts and prudes who see sex as something dirty, disgusting and corrupting are up in arms. This is why they are wrong.

The High Court was asked, among others, to consider the constitutional validity of section 15 and 16 of the Sexual Offences Act. These sections prohibit 12 to 15 year old adolescents from engaging in voluntary and consensual conduct with one another that would include anything from kissing, holding hands and light petting, to oral sex and other forms of sexual intimacy including sexual intercourse, if there is more than a two year age gap between them. If a child of 15 kisses a child of 13 both commit an offence. However, if a child of 17 kisses a child of 15 only the 17 year old can be prosecuted. The Act therefore provides an incentive for children younger than 16 to engage in sexual activities with people older than 16.

The Act also states that when a child deceives an accused into believing that he or she is already 16, then the older child or adult will not be guilty of an offence. This means that when a girl pretends to be 16 (but is, in fact, 15) and has sex with a 16 year old boy (or kisses that boy), neither of them could be prosecuted. However, if the same 15 year old girl has sex with (or kisses) a 15 year old boy, both could be prosecuted because the exception does not apply to children younger than 16.

The Act further places a legal duty on any person who has knowledge that any of these sexual offence have been committed against a child must report such knowledge immediately to a police official and failure to do so constitutes an offence for which the person is liable on conviction to a fine or to imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years. This means that where a 15 year old boy informs his mother that he has kissed a 17 year old girl, his mother will potentially become a criminal if she does not report her child to the police.

The Act bestows a discretion on the NPA to decide on whether to prosecute the children, but requires the NPA to prosecute both parties involved in the sexual activity if they are both younger than 16, regardless the circumstances. However, the Act does not provide any guidelines for how this discretion should be exercised, meaning that the enforcement of these criminal prohibitions will necessarily be selective and arbitrary.

According to statistics submitted to court between 39% and 80% of adolescents surveyed in Cape Town and Polokwane had engaged in kissing; between 25.8% and 33.8% had engaged in heavy petting; and between 15% and 26.8% had engaged in vaginal sex. The reality is that most adolescents experiment with their sexuality and this is recognised by our law.

Thus, in order to protect adolescents against HIV infection and pregnancy, section 134 of the Children’s Act prohibits any person from refusing to sell condoms to a child over the age of 12 and requires the provision of condoms to all children over the age of 12 on request where such condoms are provided or distributed free of charge. Contraceptives other than condoms may be provided to a child on request by the child and without the consent of the parent or care-giver of the child if the child is at least 12 years of age. The Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act further provides that “no consent other than that of the pregnant woman shall be required for the termination of a pregnancy”, meaning that any 13 year old is entitled to terminate her pregnancy without knowledge or consent of her parents or caregivers.

The expert evidence submitted to the court indicated that “given their developmental stage and their developmental tasks, it is not unusual or necessarily unhealthy and harmful for adolescents to engage in sexual behaviours as they begin to learn about their sexuality and become more mature in several life domains.” Experts defined “healthy” sexual behaviour as “behaviour that is mutually consensual, wanted desired, non-violent, safe (in terms of using methods to minimise risks of STI transmission and pregnancy), and for which the individual feels emotionally and physically ready.” Different children will obviously be ready for different forms of sexual exploration at different stages of their lives. The best possible way to help children deal with their sexual development in a healthy manner is to ensure that they seek out advice and help from appropriate individuals.

If one criminalises consensual sexual acts, this will discourage adolescents from seeking help with respect to their sexuality, because they may then be prosecuted for such behaviour and because it reinforces the social stigmas and taboos around sexuality. Because the Act silences and isolates adolescents regarding their sexual exploration, it makes unhealthy behaviour and poor developmental outcomes more likely and does not advance the best interest of children as required by section 28(2) of the Constitution. As the court pointed out:

This would also increase the likelihood that adolescents will engage in risky behaviour by making it impossible for caregivers to provide advice, counselling and support on issues regarding the child’s sexuality. Such caregivers would obviously also, from their side, be reluctant to enquire too much and would thus be inhibited in their actions, and actually be prevented from performing their duties as they are supposed to do. The existence of the offences also increases the risk that children will experience unhealthy sexual contact, by teaching them that consensual, developmentally normative sexual behaviour is wrong and deserves to be punished.

There is an even bigger problem with the impugned provisions: it may discourage rape survivors from reporting the rape. Because it would be far easier for the NPA to prove consensual sex occurred between the minor and an adult, than it would to prove rape occurred, there is a danger that the NPA will tend towards pursuing a charge of consensual sex.  Where the alleged rapist is under 16 years old, the victim of the possible rape must herself also be charged with contravening section 15. It would then be for her to prove that the sex was non-consensual and thus avoid conviction under section 15. Failing this, she would be convicted.

The problem with these provisions is that it treats children not as individual social beings. Instead, in an attempt to impose a narrow, moralistic, view of sexuality not in line with the  lived experience of children, it runs the risk of turning many children into criminals for no other reason than that they explored healthy  sexual behaviour as part of their normal development as human beings. To emphasise this point, the High Court quotes from the Constitutional Court judgment in S v M (Centre for Child Law as Amicus Curiae) where the purpose of the children’s rights guaranteed in section 28 of the Constitution is described as follows:

Individually and collectively all children have the right to express themselves as independent social beings, to have their own laughter as well as sorrow, to play, imagine and explore in their own way, to themselves get to understand their bodies, minds and emotions, and above all to learn as they grow how they should conduct themselves and make choices in the wide social and moral world of adulthood.

As with all High Court orders declaring invalid legislative provisions, the order of invalidity will not come into effect until it is confirmed by the Constitutional Court. For the time being, it thus remains a criminal offence for a 15 year old to kiss or hold hands with a 13 year old, which might come as a relief to some parents who believe the criminal law should do their parenting for them, but is not in the best interest of children exploring their sexual awakening in the normal and healthy manner.

  • Hugh Knight

    Thioughtful piece of writing. Best for those who prefer to think rather than react.

  • Brett Nortje

    Straw man! Straw man!

    “The Act therefore provides an incentive for children younger than 16 to engage in sexual activities with people older than 16.”

  • Chris (not the right wing guy!)

    “There is an even bigger problem with the impugned provisions: it may discourage rape survivors from reporting the rape. Because it would be far easier for the NPA to prove consensual sex occurred between the minor and an adult, than it would to prove rape occurred, there is a danger that the NPA will tend towards pursuing a charge of consensual sex.”

    Perhaps of greater concern: It gives the girl a motive to cry rape when caught having consensual sex.

  • Beetle

    You use the word PRUDE.
    You therefore ridicule anyone who may have a practical, religous or cultural reason to make an informed decision not to approve of 12 -16 year old rabbitng [paraphrasing] as they please.
    This flies in the face of your championing the rights of persons to do their own thing, be it gay, political racial or whatever. [the immediate pevious post]
    Just as, for instance, Atheists may be disbelievers as is their inalienable right, so might parents or social groups choose to have a conservative or should I say different view.

    The fault lies in the law surely?
    Should it not be less complex and state that no children under 15 should experience penetration.

    What of male teachers and sugar-daddies who are predators in the locker room? Permissible if it is consensal? Or do we another set/ or blurring of rules?

    The data from which you quote – did the researches state what percentage of 12, 13 and so on, by age group, actually know where babies come from?

    Allowing that our current schooling system results in Matrics that are barely literate or numerate, how do you, your quoted researchers and the law allow that the defined age group can communicate or formulate any informed decision?

    Simplify the law… and protect the very young.
    No 12 year old should be pregnant even if she thinks she wants a baby!

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Beatle

    “[The law should] state that no children under 15 should experience penetration.”

    Beatle is right. I say that children under 15 who behave like rabbits should be sentence to prison for a long time. I say that penetration of children was superimposed by colonial agents sent by the VATICAN! (Dmwangi will explain.)

  • Zoo Keeper

    The law has no business in the consensual matters of the private individual.

    If an assault occurs, that is of course a very different matter to a consensual act.

    Prof

    Could you also turn your attention to the increasing tendency by the State to criminalize knowledge?

    If I know someone has done something bad, surely in a free country I am free to decide what to do with that knowledge? It is only the persons involved in the incident who might have committed a wrong. So why could it possibly be lawful for the State to extend criminal sanction to those who might “know” something?

    In criminal matters it is the State’s duty to investigate in terms of strict rules to prevent the oppression and abuse of the citizen. Extending criminal liability to those who didn’t run their mates in is to me an extremely problematic approach to policing.

    What do you think Prof?

  • Gwebecimele

    That is why they are worth every cent, its never their own money.

    http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/content/en/mineweb-mining-finance-investment-old?oid=170567&sn=Detail

  • Gwebecimele

    No version of this law or government can replace good parenting.
    Adult behaviour and cultural influence will breed the youth we deserve.
    Just look at the billboards on your way home and switch on your tv when you reach home. As they say “SEX SELLS”. Who wants to miss out on the “COOL” life around us. Why not start using the real consumers of alcohol and cigarettes in the adverts, pick them up from AA and the streets.

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  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    So is sex with children no longer illegal?

  • Pierre De Vos

    No, anyone older than 16 who knowingly engage in sexual activity with somebody younger than 16 – consensual or not – commits an offence.

  • Gwebecimele

    Well argued point by Mangosuthu, as usual courts leave us in a worse off position.

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=351132&sn=Detail&pid=71616

  • Sanja Bornman

    Thank you for this blog entry, Pierre! I’ve been getting worked up all week by uninformed and sometimes plain idiotic reactions to the judgment, and reading this was like a holiday for my blood pressure.

  • spoiler

    Gwebs if you think thats a well argued point I’d hate to think what your think a bad argument looks like. The law already protects kids from exploitation by older people and should not be criminalising children for engaging in what is usually normal behaviour that their parents should be monitoring. Period. Judging by the reactions, many SA’s still have a long way to travel before they actually appreciate how valuable our constitution is and start applying some thought and reason to situations rather than defaulting to “cultural” and religious dogma when the opportunity for growth and change arises.

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  • Dmwangi

    Yep. Shocking. PdV supports any ruling that will facilitate more black children being killed in utero. Jasa nailed it. People like PdV, who believe 13 year-olds performing felatio is a normal, healthy manifestation of sexuality, are responsible for the sexualisation of our children and all of the resulting violence, STIs, and unplanned pregnancies that accompany it. He should not be making dogmatic assertions about child developmental psychology, which he is completely ignorant about, as a rationalisation for the de-criminalisation of sexual acts between his juvenile catamites (Maggs, MDF).

    But let’s see how the CC responds.


    Dept worries over sex offences ruling
    Published: 2013/01/15 10:16:00 PM
    Source: SAPA

    Johannesburg – The justice department will study a ruling by the North Gauteng High Court in Pretoria against certain sections of the Sexual Offences Amendment Act, an official said on Tuesday.

    Judge Pierre Rabie ruled earlier in the day that sections 15 and 16 of the act, which criminalise “consensual penetration” between children younger than 16 and older than 12, as well as section 56 (2)(b) of the act, were unconstitutional.

    Justice spokesperson Mthunzi Mhaga said the department was “reflecting on all the legal issues canvassed” in the ruling to see whether there were valid grounds for an appeal.

    “This judgment has far-reaching implications in the escalating rate of sexual violence among children under the age of 16 years, as seen in many cases dealt with by law enforcement and our courts,” he said in a statement.

    “The decision to appeal or not will be determined after a proper analysis of the judgment and will take into consideration the interest and rights of the children as dictated by the Constitution.”

    The case was brought by the Teddy Bear Clinic for Abused Children and Resources Aimed at the Prevention of Child Abuse and Neglect.

    The two organisations argued the sections often resulted in many underage pregnant girls not wanting to have abortions at clinics, as this would lead to criminal charges against them and their partners.

    It said the provisions infringe on their rights, and expose them to the trauma of the criminal justice system.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    (Asserting that Maggs and me are ["juvenile catamites]“)

    For heaven’s sake, Dmwangi, if you insist on labelling us as baby cats, just use the household word, “kittens.” You impress no one with obscure grad school circumlocutions.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 18, 2013 at 17:39 pm

    Dworky,

    Speak for yourself, juvenile catamite.

    I’m the adult catamite – sort of like a kitten but adult form!

    p.s. Don’t annoy Dmwangi – it’s Friday, we’ll have no one to amuse ourselves with if you chase him away!

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs

    p.s. Don’t annoy Dmwangi”

    OK, I won’t. In fact,I agree with what he says about the “sexualisation of children”. I mean, what’s next? Eleven-year-old boys being let off the hook for raping seven-year-old girls because at that age they can’t be expected to understand the word “no”?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Lisbeth
    January 18, 2013 at 18:31 pm

    Lisbeth,

    “I mean, what’s next? Eleven-year-old boys being let off the hook for raping seven-year-old girls because at that age they can’t be expected to understand the word “no”?”

    Under 16 is a broad range.

    A two year old saying “yes” to a 16 year old …

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    The pupil had told teachers she had been sexually assaulted twice by different boys in February 2011, a month before her death.

    The court was told she claimed 18-year-old Benn Miebaka had forced her to perform a sex act on him following a half-term party. She said a second boy – E6 – then threatened to smash Chevonea’s windows if she did not repeat the act on him the following day.

    Chevonea did not realise that this second episode was being filmed. She discovered a sex tape had been made and was being passed around the school only four hours before her death, the court heard.

    Mr Richmond accepted Chevonea did have sexual encounters with both men.

    He said: “Whether she was intimidated to comply, or out of her depth and unable to process what to do to extricate herself from the situation, is less than clear.”

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/delete-sex-video-or-i-ll-jump-1.1453761#.UPmF-_LxkRg

  • Lisbeth

    Maggs

    “Head teacher of St. Cecilia’s, Niall Gallagher, said that they had learned “a number of valuable lessons”.”

    Pity we didn’t get to find out what those lessons were … any ideas?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Cape Town – Murdered teenage girl Charmaine Mare’s body parts have finally been recovered – scattered almost 40km across Cape Town.

    Cops tracked down the 16-year-old Mpumalanga girl’s legs on a property close to Somerset West, just hours before her alleged killer appeared in court on Thursday charged with her murder.

    Johannes de Jager made a brief appearance at the Blue Down’s Magistrates’ Court before he was led away to a police cell.

    De Jager was arrested on Wednesday morning after cops found Charmaine’s arms stashed in the garage of his home in Elderman Street, Kraaifontein.

    They made the gruesome discovery two days after the victim’s mutilated and burnt corpse was found two kilometres away in an open field, just off Darwin Road.

    It is understood the suspect then led cops to an abandoned building in Firgrove, near Somerset West, where Charmaine’s legs were hidden.

    http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/teen-s-legs-found-40km-from-torso-1.1454580#.UPmGAfLxkRg

  • Brett Nortje

    spoiler says:
    January 18, 2013 at 14:12 pm

    I agree with Gwebecimele.

    One seldom sees so many straw men put up, so much by way of fallacious reasoning as in the justifications for this bit of social engineering.

  • sirjay jonson

    I remember becoming sexually aware. I think I was about six years of age, climbing on a 1st grade Cdn rural grade one room school (with drop toilet) and the swing apparatus available for climbing. I felt that energy deep within for the first time and it was soo goood.

    I remember a time a few years later on an a bordering farm (‘n plaas) where a young farm gal (I could have loved her forever) showed me how to masturbate a male dog, all the time I was hoping she would attempt the same thing with me; she didn’t. I was eight.

    Later: with a cousin, lots of exploration. Her mother found out. I was most discouraged when said mum told her that was something she needed to wait for, therefore no more play with me. She was later murdered with her daughter by a serial sex killer.

    Then I remember boarding school, all that sexual exploration between us boys; even holes in the wooden walls between our cubbies, which we made great use of.

    Then my first experience with real energetic sex, lying with a male boyhood friend in a shallow river with the water flowing over us; he wanted me to experience much more which I did, and then subsequently surprised as I looked skywards when coming for the first time and seeing the most beautiful female face standing there watching us as the river flowed, smiling, then walking away. I was 13.

    Children experiment, they seek out everything which draws them; its the natural order of life. The only crime in such circumstances is by those who oppress children with their so called warped self constricted ideologies and dogmatic, controlling morals.

    I’m an elder now, nine grandchildren, three greats.

    Let the children be.

  • Brett Nortje

    Sirjay, I can also recall masturbating my dog. For a couple of seconds, until I manged to guide him into a collection flask.

    The bitch had an STD so we did AI so as not to infect my male.

    Please tell me you were doing AI with the dog, Sirjay?

  • sirjay jonson

    Brett Nortje
    January 18, 2013 at 21:33 pm

    Long time, few discourses.

    AI: as in… alternative interests, alternative intelligence, or alternate intelligence? Please clarify.

    Most important: speak thy truth.

  • sirjay jonson

    Brett Nortje
    January 18, 2013 at 21:33 pm

    Keep in mind I wasn’t masturbating my dog. My friend was a young, possibly 13, rather beautiful blond Cdn boeremeisie on rural farm land in Canada in days when Canada and we its offspring were still innocent. I was simply observing with rising energy rushes raising considerable biological heat and all that was combined with mental confusion and a curious unknown desire which my childhood was attempting to understand.

  • sirjay jonson

    Brett Nortje
    January 18, 2013 at 21:33 pm
    Lets talk another day. My sweetie is calling. I’m off to bed.

  • sirjay jonson

    Brett Nortje
    January 18, 2013 at 21:33 pm

    One more passing comment.

    The purpose of life (just ask JZ he’ll tell you, babies and ANC economic policy et al) is ‘te vermenigvuldig’.

  • Dmwangi

    sirjay jonson
    January 18, 2013 at 21:00 pm

    One more passing comment: you and your ‘sexual energy’ should be prohibited from being within 500m of any minor! Keep your lewdness where it belongs– Pollsmoor.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Dmwangi, I say gay dog masturbation was virtually unknown in Africa — until YOU KNOW WHOM imposed this foul practice!

    WDYS?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 18, 2013 at 16:44 pm

    Hey Dmwangi,

    You’re right about Dworky – he’s a baby kitten thingy aka an evil spirit.

    What say you we send him the Ghana for treatment, eh!

    By Anas Aremeyaw Anas

    Thousands of children have been killed in Ghana because the communities they are born into believe they are evil spirits. When I first heard about this I could not believe it was happening in my country in the 21st century.

    The practice originally emerged as a way for poor families to deal with deformed or disabled children that they cannot look after. These families approach village elders known as concoction men and inform them that they suspect their child to be a so-called spirit child. The concoction man then takes the father of the child to visit a soothsayer who confirms whether or not the child is truly evil, without ever actually laying eyes on them.

    Once this confirmation has been received, the concoction man brews a poisonous liquid from local roots and herbs and force-feeds it to the child, almost always resulting in death.

    Over time, this practice has become a perceived solution to any problems a family might be having at the time of a child’s birth. By blaming the child for sickness in the family, or the father’s inability to find work or provide money to support his dependents, these communities have found an otherworldly explanation for their problems.

    In this highly patriarchal society it enables heads of family to pass the blame for their struggles onto someone else. And by branding the child a spirit from outside the family, they can disassociate themselves and feel justified in murdering their own offspring, while telling those around them that now all will be well – the evil presence is gone.

    But infanticide has always been a crime against humanity. I believe there is plenty of evidence of infanticide in the history of all human societies and its continued and widespread practice makes a mockery of the democratic credentials of the countries, including mine, where this crime still takes place. Many forms of civic engagement and advocacy have been used in a bid to eradicate this practice in Ghana and other West African nations. Sadly though, the limited efficacy of such techniques is illustrated by the fact that today children are still being killed in this way.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2013/01/201319121124284358.html

  • Jama kaSijadu

    Dogs & cats aside, this thing has “permissiveness lobby” written all over it.

    That being said, the law cannot do our parenting for us. The only law that hormone crazed teens should be concerned about is the law of their parents/ caregivers at home. Yet we read that they are driving each to suicide with “rape tapes”. Clearly these problems start at home, and we should be looking at ourselves as parents to see where we are going wrong?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    You and your LIBERAL friends may be as cynical as you like about Ghanian traditions – but Africans are more honest than the purveyors of MASS ABORTION in America and FEMALE INFANTICIDE in China!

    Thanks.

  • Jama kaSijadu

    @MDF

    I’ve heard some hospitals in South Africa are granting as many as 50 abortions a day. Infanticide seems to be trending worldwide.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 19, 2013 at 10:49 am

    Hey Small Kitten Guy,

    Is dogamite the opposite of catamite?

    Anyway this piece confirms as Dmwangi told us, that all Africans everywhere practice UBUNTU!

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2013/01/19/nurse-implicated-in-husband-s-murder-arrested-kzn-cops

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Maggs

    “Is dogamite the opposite of catamite?”

    No. You are thinking of a “dogmatist,” viz. one who insists on valuing canines more than people.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 19, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    Dworky

    If dogmatist is one who insists on valuing canines more than people, what are the “National Press Club” okes????

    Rhinomatists? Rhinomites? Racists? Looneys? #JustDon’tGetItGuys?

    http://www.citypress.co.za/news/rhino-named-2012-newsmaker/

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, with respect, I demand you cease wasting our time with fanciful neologic speculations. And Dmwangi, whilst I too am repulsed by Sirjay’s juvenile dogmaticism, it seems to me that your harsh criticism of those who stray from African traditions is inconsistent with the spirit of UBUNTU!

    Thanks

  • Dmwangi

    We get it, Maggs. You hate African culture so you want to portray it all as savage and backward. So why you remain here? Why not run back to India– that bastion of civilised culture where nothing barbaric ever occurs?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 19, 2013 at 17:42 pm

    Hayibo DM,

    “So why you remain here? Why not run back to India”

    Back??? I have never been to India!!!!

    You are the one who ran away from your Ubuntified country to here. I am a South African, I owe my being to the hills and the valleys, the mountains and the glades, the rivers, the deserts, the trees, the flowers, the seas and the ever-changing seasons that define the face of our native land. … Geddit???

    Now show me where I suggested that people in general, Indians in particular behave in consistent, predictable ways or that generalisations or conclusions could be drawn from their “culture”.

    You have been suggesting that.

    So come up with something more creative than that I “hate African culture”.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 19, 2013 at 17:37 pm

    Dworky,

    Don’t come here with those tendencies, those WHITE tendencies!

    If you continue, I’ll set Sirjay on you – then you will get to know what it means to be dogged!

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs:

    So you deny the concept of ‘culture’ exists. The word has no meaning, was created for no purpose. Ubuntu, for you, is a meaningless concept. Chinese people have no common habits or mores that distinguish them from Haitains by your lights.

    You’re either a dissembling stereotype of your culture, who wants to portray African culture as backward and savage without publicly admitting this intention, or you’re a bigger doos than I thought.

  • Maggs Naidu

    DM,

    Ok I concede that I’m a bigger doos than you think. It’s not a bad thing since you don’t think to well.

    Now setting that aside, do you still hold the view, as you have been consistently suggesting, that ALL Africans practice UBUNTU?

  • Dmwangi

    Dense guy,

    Why don’t you look at my post last week where I said no one was foolish enough to submit that *all* ~800M Africans practiced Ubuntu *all* of the time every waking moment of their lives, without exception.

    Now, catamite, maybe you can explain why you hate African culture. Or, in the alternative, why there is no such thing as ‘culture’ despite the fact that Taoism is not widely practiced in Haiti and voodoo is not a salient feature of China.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Sorry. Im sure every body missed me.

    Congrats to our demographic national soccer team. No Whites, no Coloureds, no Indians (God forbid) – all real Africans.

    0–0.

    At home.

  • Brett Nortje

    Sirjay, AI is Artifical Insemination. Looks like AI is the only option left to me to get a litter out of my old pitbull unless I can get someone to clone her for me – she always has funny seasons. And I would love a replay of the last 8 years – she’s been great.

    I’m already looking to import semen for my Malinois puppy.

    I was going to use AI to get babies from my 15 year old Janssen cock Champ over all my Janssen hens but he went infertile last year.

    Isn’t science amazing?

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, you’re just being sniffy over Ghanaians because they told SAFA they want the bottom stands of our football stadiums cleared of women.

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    A bunch of losers thinking WTF?

    No pride, no honour. No love for their continent of their country. No love besides money.

    Nothing worth the ticket. I this what my country is all about?

    http://img3.soccerladuma.co.za/files/2013/01/4a5d97d2940964874492615ced8705e9.jpg

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    As much as I respect you, I am *not* going back to Slovenia either. I practice UBUNTU daily, with all the zeal of a late-adopter. As for Maggs, leave him be. I predict he will STFU if we politely ignore him!

    Thanks very much.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 19, 2013 at 22:35 pm

    Ubuntu Guy,

    “my post last week where I said no one was foolish enough to submit that *all* ~800M Africans practiced Ubuntu *all* of the time every waking moment of their lives, without exception.”

    You’ve changed your stance, not so long ago you were insisting that UBUNTU and culture is practicised by ALL African people everywhere – but well done to me for showing you the stupidity of your ways!

    I’ll dig up your previous comments if you like, if you agree before hand that if I present your own comments which contradict your newfound sense of reason, that you’ll admit publicly that those were idiotic views to have held then.

    Your generalisations are as stupid as those who think because some Indians practice shakti that it is an Indian “culture” or because the caste system is in practice that all 1.39878654 billion coolies fall into the castes, take note of it and follow the practice.

    It’s like saying that because there are lawyers who are skelms that the entire legal profession is shady – ok bad example, the entire legal profession is shady!

  • Brett Nortje

    How our country was bankrupted 1:

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article773953.ece/Huge-profits-from-local-land-deals

    Huge profits from local land deals
    STEPHAN HOFSTATTER and MZILIKAZI wa AFRIKA | 21 November, 2010 00:00

    A prominent businessman in Mpumalanga, who is linked to premier David Mabuza, has emerged as the central figure in questionable municipal land deals worth R45-million. The Sunday Times has established that town planner Patrick Chirwa used his company, Pacific Breeze Trading 474, to snap up private plots on the cheap and sell them to municipalities at exorbitant prices.

    Chirwa is also the owner of Sisonke Development Planners in the province. At the time that most of the deals took place, the premier, Mabuza, was MEC for agriculture and land administration and served as a director of two companies – Above Average Trading Corporation 44 and 45 – with Chirwa. In one deal, a plot was bought for R3.1-million and sold to the Mbombela municipality for R11-million in one day.

    At the time, Chirwa was a board member of the Mbombela Housing Association whose mandate included identifying properties for “social integration” on behalf of the council. He is now the chairman of the association. In another deal, Pacific Breeze bought a plot in the Emakhazeni municipality for R1.6-million and transferred it to the council for R17.4-million. Deeds and company records show that between 2007 and 2008 Pacific Breeze bought four smallholdings from private landowners for a total of R7.6-million and sold them to the government for R44.4-million – pocketing a profit of R36.8-million.

    The purchases by the municipalities were all financed through the provincial government. Chirwa confirmed the details of the transactions and admitted to making “huge profits”. But he claimed these were not “unseemly” because property developers took “large risks”. The massive price hikes, which took place during a global property slump, were “due to normal market forces” for farm land “earmarked for development purposes”, he said.

    Pacific Breeze is not the only entity through which Chirwa made money out of lucrative government deals. The members of Pacific Breeze – Chirwa, Harrington Dlamini and Robert Burwise – also own a company called Lusito Development Specialists. In 2006, Lusito lodged an application to develop the very same properties bought and sold by Pacific Breeze into a “social housing” project. This project ran into stiff opposition from local landowners, who formed a pressure group, the White River Concerned Citizens Committee.

    Committee member Stefanus Labuschaghne told the Sunday Times he had attended a residents’ meeting in 2006 convened by Burwise, who claimed there were “very powerful politicians behind this development” and that “we won’t be able to stop it”. Another resident, Paul Clark, said Burwise “told me personally we will never stop this because there were ‘very powerful forces’ behind it”.

    Chirwa denied exploiting his political connections and positions to clinch the deals. He said his relationship with Mabuza was professional. “We have no business association whatsoever,” he said, and Mabuza “had no influence on the decision of the Department of Human Settlements to finance the purchase of the land”. He threatened to sue the Sunday Times, saying: “The questions raised … are already defamatory.” Mabuza, through a spokes-man, denied that he had benefited from the deals – or through any of his business links with Chirwa.

    Asked if the Department of Human Settlements planned to investigate the sales for irregularities, provincial head David Dube said “proper processes were adhered to when purchasing the properties and there is nothing currently that warrants any legal action”.

  • Brett Nortje

    How our country was bankrupted 2:

    http://www.rapport.co.za/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Brekfis-vir-R37-m-20130119

    Brekfis vir R37 m.

    Loyiso Sidimba

    Drie van die land se grootste maatskappye in staatsbesit dok miljoene rande op om sake-ontbyte van die Gupta-familie, boesemvriende van pres. Jacob Zuma, te finansier.

    Die Guptas is die eienaars van die koerant The New Age, wat by sy reeks sake-ontbyte al gasheer was vir sprekers soos ­Zuma, Jeff Radebe, minister van justisie, en Malusi Gigaba, minister van openbare ondernemings.

    Transnet het al R17,5 miljoen vir 18 ontbytsessies opgedok, Eskom het tussen November en einde verlede jaar R7,2 miljoen betaal om ses sessies (teen R1,2 miljoen elk) te borg; en die SAUK het die koerant nie ’n sent gevra om hul ontbyte regstreeks op SABC2 uit te saai nie.

    Vroeër is berig dat Telkom in die 2012-’13-boekjaar altesame R12 miljoen opgedok het om 12 van dié sake-ontbyte te borg.

    Dié onthullings kom in dieselfde week dat die Nasionale Energiereguleerder (Nersa) openbare verhore gehou het oor Eskom se voorgestelde kragverhoging van 16%.

    Eskom se borgskap van die ontbyte van The New Age is betaal uit sy begroting vir die 49M-inisiatief vir energiedoeltreffendheid.

    Gary Naidoo, woordvoerder van die Guptas, sê hy vind die fokus op sy kliënte “baie vreemd en oneties”.

    “Dieselfde kliënte verskyn in jul koerant en dit lyk asof jul vrae gemotiveer word deur ’n vrees vir ’n verlies aan markaandeel. Dit blyk jul motief is om ’n ­afskrikmiddel te vind vir dié kliënte wat inkoop by ons visie van ‘trots Suid-Afrikaans’, en dat dit heeltemal onafhanklik is van die publikasie van gebalanseerde nuus.”

    Die multimiljoenrand-borgskappe het aan die lig gekom in Gigaba se antwoorde in die parlement op vrae deur Kenneth Mubu, DA-LP. Mubu het gesê The New Age is ’n “ANC-nuusblad” en Transnet en Eskom se verhouding met The New Age tas die regering se beeld aan.

    “The New Age se eienaars het ’n baie noue en gemoedelike verhouding met pres. Zuma,” het Mubu gesê.

    Hy meen dis verkeerd dat die regering die koerant se sake-ontbyte finansier.

    Zuma is ’n familievriend van die Guptas en Zuma se seun Duduzane dien in minstens ­nege rade saam met Gupta-familielede, waaronder dié van Sahara Holdings en Shiva ­Uranium.

    Een van Zuma se vroue, ­Bongi Ngema, is die hoof van kommunikasie en bemarking by die Guptas se JIC Mining Ser­vices.

    In November het Mail & Guardian berig daar is “drie stelle Gupta-vingerafdrukke” op ’n verband van R3,8 miljoen op eiendom in Waterkloofrif wat aan Ngema behoort.

    Transnet en Eskom het die afgelope week hul borgskap van die ontbytsessies verdedig. Hilary Joffe, woordvoerder van Eskom, sê die maatskappy het besluit om die sessies te borg ná wedersydse besprekings wat ’n geruime tyd geduur het.

    Transnet en Eskom beweer hul borgskap het “leierskap in denke” en “die noodsaak om krag te bespaar” aangemoedig, asook hul handelsnaam gebou.

    Transnet het tussen Oktober 2011 en November verlede jaar meer as R8,5?miljoen aan advertensies in The New Age bestee, luidens dokumente in die besit van City Press, Rapport se susterkoerant.

    Kaizer Kganyago, SAUK-woordvoerder, sê die ooreenkoms tussen die SAUK en The New Age is ’n “wen-wen-ooreenkoms omdat ons inhoud verkry wat ons help om die publiek in te lig”.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 20, 2013 at 9:55 am

    Hey G

    “How our country was bankrupted 1:

    How our country was bankrupted 2:”

    Well these are resources which would have gone mainly to the poor.

    So, as always, FUCK THE POOR!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    More open race-baiting directed at you Indians, WDYS maggs.

    Last nite while I was trying to watch Bafana a white oke and one of my black comrades had a good laugh about how “blacks and whites have a common enemy and simply cannot stand Indians”.

    I’m not joking my friend.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Blue Ozone
    January 20, 2013 at 11:23 am

    Ozone Boy,

    “I’m not joking my friend.”

    And your point is???

    Perhaps that your friends, like you, are idiots?

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs:

    You’re so full of lies and kak. I never said that. All you do is take ppl’s words out of context to try to win some lame argument that goes on in the deeply disturbed recesses of your mind.

    Ubuntu is a cultural *ideal* common to ATR. Full stop. Now you can twist that with all your confused bullshit if you like but it’s a fact that can be verified by looking at any peer-reviewed journal that discusses ATR or African anthropology.

    At least Brett is man enough not to hide his views about African culture. But you’re too chicken-shit to publicly admit you hate it, which is the reason you incessantly mock it, so you try to convince us of the absurdity that no such concept as ‘culture’ exists. Save your mendacities, Raj. You’re not worth the effort.

  • Dmwangi

    P.S. you don’t owe your ‘being’ to the corner of African soil we have cartographically labeled ‘South Africa.’

    You owe your being to inadequate upbringing, lack of education and pathological lying.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 20, 2013 at 18:17 pm

    Dmwangi,

    “You’re so full of lies and kak. I never said that. All you do is take ppl’s words out of context to try to win some lame argument that goes on in the deeply disturbed recesses of your mind.”

    Ok – I admit it. You got me lying, dude.

    Any idea who said this???

    One needn’t operate a formal charity to be charitable. Blacks commit charitable acts of Ubuntu and neighborliness all the time. It’s only your myopia that makes you believe one has to run an NGO to be charitable.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 20, 2013 at 18:17 pm

    Eish you sound angry dude!

    You remind me of something from the story about the mighty lion who went around demanding that all the animals declare that he, the lion, is the king of the jungle.

    All the animals willingly complied in exchange for their lives. Finally the mighty king faces a massive bull elephant eating from the branches of a tall Acacia tree while amassing a huge pile of elephant dung at the other end.

    The lion demands an answer (like you just did) from the elephant) “Who is the King of the jungle?” he roared. The very annoyed elephant takes a pause from his dinner, tusks the lion, throws it up in the air, stomps on it a few times then with his mighty trunk, rubs the lions faces in the huge pile of ele-poop.

    Undeterred the battered and bruised lion, barely able to move, looks up at the elephant and proclaims, as all kings proclaim, “Ok, ok, if you don’t know the answer, you don’t have to get cross”.

    Of course the part of that story which most closely resembles you is …. the elephant poop of course!

  • Dmwangi

    Any literate child can see that you’re lying:

    Me: “One needn’t operate a formal charity to be charitable. Blacks commit charitable acts of Ubuntu and neighborliness all the time. It’s only your myopia that makes you believe one has to run an NGO to be charitable.”

    Doesn’t not equal what you alleged I said:

    You: “You’ve changed your stance, not so long ago you were insisting that UBUNTU and culture is practicised by ALL African people everywhere – but well done to me for showing you the stupidity of your ways!”

    Now voetsek you dumb lying animal.

  • Dmwangi

    *Does not equal*….

  • Dmwangi

    Instead talking all this kak and obfuscating why don’t you act like you have a pair and admit the reason you enjoy constantly mocking African traditions and practices is because you think our culture is ‘backward,’ inferior, etc. Why else would you do it???

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “Blacks commit charitable acts of Ubuntu and neighborliness all the time.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “my post last week where I said no one was foolish enough to submit that *all* ~800M Africans practiced Ubuntu *all* of the time every waking moment of their lives, without exception.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    “Blacks commit charitable acts of Ubuntu and neighborliness all the time.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    . “my post last week where I said no one was foolish enough to submit that *all* ~800M Africans practiced Ubuntu *all* of the time every waking moment of their lives, without exception.”

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    So Dmwangi – since I went to a Fong Kong pre-primary school which does not impress WHITE people I don’t quite understand this advanced langauge, so help me out a bit.

    Do say what “ALL THE TIME” means?

  • Gwebecimele

    http://www.iol.co.za:80/sport/soccer/bafana/herbalist-offers-to-help-bafana-win-1.1455106
    Now that the coaches have done their part, its time for our local experts to do cleansing. Apparently this cleansing will also solve our car accidents problems.

    As south africans we are expected to exercise patience whent it comes to goals, jobs etc

  • Gwebecimele

    At this rate we might experience a national early ejaculation and watch the rest of the african cup from sidelines or does it have anything to do with 30% pass rate?

  • Brett Nortje

    Mwangi, I do not hate African culture. I’m fascinated by it. I look at it objectively, from the 21st Century, in all its complexity. I see consequences, cause-and-effect. And many of those consequences appear to be extremely unpleasant and unnecessary and many very interesting.

    What is interesting or quaint when the gardener does it might be reprehensible when our First Citizen does it.

    And, as I’ve said, a lot of what is claimed to be ‘our culture’ strikes me as justifications after the fact by patriarchs, alibis.

    You’ve returned to ‘ubuntu’ being an *ideal* after two weeks so obviously you’ve thought of a new line of attack. Lets have it.

    I sent you away to find a Zulu word for *ideal* because it strikes me as logically inconsistent to claim a meaning for an abstract concept retrospectively for which there is no word in a given language hence not even the first building-block of conceptualisation.

    I have seen ‘ubuntu’ in practice as manifestation of people being kind and caring and considerate – just plain nice – but the elevation to a constitutional principle due to the appeasement of soft-headed ‘progressives’?

    Another rewrite of history, myth-creation as an alibi for the ANC’s utter uselessness when they had it to do.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 20, 2013 at 21:13 pm

    DM,

    “Instead talking all this kak and obfuscating why don’t you act like you have a pair and admit the reason you enjoy constantly mocking African traditions and practices is because you think our culture is ‘backward,’ inferior, etc. Why else would you do it???”

    Let’s start with the question first – “Why else would you do it???”

    That’s because we live in a Constitutional Democracy. Traditions and culture is not a substitute for law. Deferring to those is counter-revolutionary unless is is consistent with our Constitution. Letting our country go backward is not an option is we are to achieve the aspirations of the NDR. Any cultural/traditional practices which will advance our Constitutional Project will have been incorporated into our Constitution – any that haven’t, should and must be limited to private/personal practice.

    Now, re “mocking” – understand the distinction between mocking “traditions and practices” on the one hand and mocking the pretense of traditions and practices actually being practiced. I mock and will continue to mock the latter especially where and when it is raised as a red herring to defend the many outrages which are indefensible.

    I’ll mock the sangoma who claimed that he can produce muti which will make Bafana Bafana win the AFCON cup. It’s as silly as Professor Zuma claiming that his touching the cup means that it will come to South Africa – I’ll also mock that. It’s because both are equally idiotic.

    Of course Zuma has a political agenda behind keeping captive to backward mindsets, in the technologically advanced 21st century. What’s yours?

    Then there’s the practices which are downright criminal but defended as “culture” – genital mutilation of little children, the kidnapping and forced marriages of young girls to adult pedophiles to start. Add to the brutality against homosexuals under the cover of ‘traditions and culture”.

    Add to that the increasing tendency of high profile politicians, elected and sworn to uphold our Constitution, when confronted over the abuse of state resources and power are increasingly relying on “these people don’t understand our culture”.

    Culture and tradition may well allow millions to be spent on homes for ministers while Durban’s McCords Hospital is about to be shut down (despite it running the largest AIDS support programme in KZN) and 400 staff will be retrenched – but this cannot be consistent with the aspirations of our society as enshrined in our Constitution.

  • Brett Nortje

    Good answer, Cde Maggs – he is like Cde Blade who wants to make ‘respect’ law but does not like the dictionary meaning of ‘respect’.

    P.s. I’ve been looking but can’t find it!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    The natural ability to play a decent game of soccer doesn’t seem to be part of South African culture any more. In 1976 we hammered Argentina 5-1 with a “multiracial team. In 1996 we were Afcon champions.

    Now compare Bafana’s fucking woeful effort over the weekend to the Ghana/DRC game last night. It is hard to believe we are even on the same continent.

    http://www.africaresource.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=342:south-africa-football-and-apartheid&catid=136:race&Itemid=351

    It must be this culture of entitlement. But unfortunately they don’t hand out AFCON cups to professional blacks simply for turning up in time.

  • Gwebecimele

    NOW WE KNOW WHY SAFA IS BEING MILKED, HALF OF THEM ARE UNEMPLOYED BUT THEY WANT TO DRIVE IN LUXURY” JORDAN SOUNDS LIKE AN MP.

    “But in his less convincing defence of the purchase of 26 luxury cars for executive committee members. Jordaan revealed the alarming fact that 50% of Safa’s elected leadership are unemployed.

    “How do you expect them to get around their regions and see their constituents when they don’t have transport?” he asked.”
    http://www.sportlive.co.za/soccer/sa/article7809386.ece

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Magga, I have never claimed to practice UBUNTU 24 hours a day. That is ridiculous and unattainable. Take one example. I sleep up to 10 hours every night. During that period, I am simply unable to help myself, let alone others.

    WDYS?

  • Gwebecimele

    OB

    Did you really had to bring in race into Bafana underperformance??
    What if I remind you that these players like us, are victims of poor national soccer development run mainly by whites and few black elite. Think of SAFA CEO’s, PSL CEO’s, Bafana Coaches, SAFA agents etc A white man recently looted even the name Bafana.

  • Gwebecimele
  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    January 21, 2013 at 9:57 am

    Ah ha!

    Now I get it Dworky – UBUNTU is practiced 10am to 4pm weekdays (except lunch time and public holidays).

    Any idea where can I find a TOKOLOSHE?

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Gwebecimele
    January 21, 2013 at 10:01 am

    “What if I remind you that these players like us, are victims of poor national soccer development run mainly by whites and few black elite.”

    LOL. Absolutely classic. I rest my case.

    Current PSL Executive Committee: Dr Irvin Khoza (chairman), Kaizer Motaung, Mato Madlala, Dr Patrick Sokhela

  • Brett Nortje

    Hau, Madoda, utheni?

    When I was growing up our (mine and kleinboet)’s source of soccerballs was a guy named Ron Parker who used to give us used match balls. He used to spend his whole life working as a claims clerk because he lived for soccer development! Organising! Living in a small house, not driving anywhere, working as a clerk only so he could eat! Never made a cent out of soccer, just spent every spare cent he had on developing the game. So, most of his effort might have benefitted white kids, because of where he lived.

    Where are the black Ron Parkers?

    When we see on TV news a new rugby ‘development iniative’ what are we really shown? Rugby, bowing under pressure, providing a few more jobs to unemployed black people. Calling job-creation ‘development’.

    Who sits on the governing boards of black schools in the townships?

    Unemployed black people.

    Keep it real, dude.

    Gwebecimele says:
    January 21, 2013 at 10:01 am

    I remind you that these players like us, are victims of poor national soccer development run mainly by whites and few black elite.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Brett Nortje
    January 21, 2013 at 11:00 am

    G,

    One of these days (or weeks or months or years or decades or centuries) our politicians will wake up to the opportunities for wealth and job creation in sport.

    When the quick money from the wealth under our feet (eish – the minerals that is, not dead people) dries up.

    Admittedly that time is fast approaching with our national credit rating being, as a reported termed it, one step above “junk”!

    Oh well BBB- for the national credit rating from the three agencies is better than the matric pass rate requirement!

  • http://www.ozoneblue.co.za/ Blue Ozone

    Brett – its is not a racial issue. It is a question of patriotism, or rather, a lack of it.

    The stadium was empty, the performance was indifferent, it was and embarrassment for all of South Africa.

    what has gone wrong with this country? How do we manage to go from Afcon winners in 1996 to 85th ranked team in the world. How does a poor African island country like Cape Verde with population 500 000 take on a economic giant like South Africa with 50 mil people and hold us to a draw at home?

  • See See

    Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)
    January 19, 2013 at 17:53 pm
    Dmwangi
    January 19, 2013 at 17:42 pm
    Hayibo DM,
    “So why you remain here? Why not run back to India”
    Back??? I have never been to India!!!!
    You are the one who ran away from your Ubuntified country to here. I am a South African, I owe my being to the hills and the valleys, the mountains and the glades, the rivers, the deserts, the trees, the flowers, the seas and the ever-changing seasons that define the face of our native land. … Geddit???
    Now show me where I suggested that people in general, Indians in particular behave in consistent, predictable ways or that generalisations or conclusions could be drawn from their “culture”.
    You have been suggesting that.
    So come up with something more creative than that I “hate African culture”.

    Maggs, that was beautiful. Reminded me a bit of Alan Paton. A man with Ubuntu.

  • Dmwangi

    Maggs/Brett :

    1) “That’s because we live in a Constitutional Democracy. Traditions and culture is not a substitute for law.”

    Bullshit. *Custom* has always been an integral part of law. Hence, that little thing called “customary law.” Likewise, custom was always taken into account when developing the common law. To suggest otherwise is, as usual, ignorant.

    So it’s unclear why modern liberalism– the traditions and culture of Europeans– should be privileged over those of Africans in deciding how we want to govern ourselves. (Particularly when the authoritative text you appeal to specifically grants authority to ACL in certain domains). I understand you’d like it to be that way because you find our culture ‘backward’ and unpalatable but that fact alone doesn’t carry much weight.

    2) “Now, re “mocking” – understand the distinction between mocking “traditions and practices” on the one hand and mocking the pretense of traditions and practices actually being practiced. I mock and will continue to mock the latter especially where and when it is raised as a red herring to defend the many outrages which are indefensible.”

    Outrageous and indefensible to *you.* You have quite a functional way of handling pluralistic democracy. Every practice your fellow citizens value that you find “outrageous” you’ll just mock them instead of engaging in civil discourse. Brilliant! Perhaps they should be allowed to do the same thing vis-a-vis the practices of modern liberalism you hold dear viz. advocating for the de-criminalisation of felatio between those of twelve years. I’m sure we’ll advance far in our understandings of each other if we just mock our interlocutors. I’m certain that’s what good democrats do.

    Appealing to ‘progress’ or ‘backwardness’ or ‘outrageousness’ merely begs the question. You find male initiation rites ‘outrageous.’ We find homosexual marriage ludicrous. Each side must make arguments on the merits. You can’t just appeal to personal outrage or whatever your personal notion of ‘progress’ is.

    I find it odd though, Maggs, that you continually caricature and deride African culture but never any others. Your contempt for African culture seems particularly acute relative to your fawning over European liberalism.

    3) “You’ve returned to ‘ubuntu’ being an *ideal* after two weeks so obviously you’ve thought of a new line of attack. Lets have it.”

    This has always been my position. Nothing new here. And it is significant that a culture regards charity as its highest ordinal value, which animates all others, given that many have not (e.g. Greeks). Elevating it to a Constitutional principle reminds us that the Constitution should be interpreted in light of this supreme value and not any other (e.g. bravery , courage , strength, etc.).

    I don’t know what the Zulu word is but I’m sure there is a way to conceptualise it in that language. Anthropologists will tell you that every culture on record to date has distinguished between actions as performed and how they ought to be performed. Viz. all cultures have norms. Swahili is a Bantu language like Zulu and there is a word for ‘ideal’ so I’d be very surprised if somewhere in the history of that linguistic family the word got lost.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 21, 2013 at 18:04 pm

    Dm,

    It seems that at the graduate school which impresses WHITEs they only teach to write, not to read!

    1. Did your blind spot miss this? “Deferring to those is counter-revolutionary unless is is consistent with our Constitution.” That dismisses all the bull you wrote.

    “should be privileged over those of Africans in deciding how we want to govern ourselves” – crap man. Kenyans have decided how they want to govern themselves – you ran away from that. South Africans have decided on how we want to govern ourselves. Read Act 108 of 1996!

    2. Lots of nonsense. “genital mutilation of little children” is very different from “You find male initiation rites ‘outrageous.’ “. If you’re struggling to understand I’ll explain in more detail.

    Of course you will find my views odd – that’s cos you are odd. No Chinese or Greek or German or Indian or Chilean … person has written such tripe as you have here and ascribed it to his culture and traditions. Neither have people from any other part of the world. Anyway – go read in the relevant blog on “Spud the movie” on what my views were re Judge Cameron’s letter. Or on Pastor Errol Naidoo and open your wallets.

    You say “We find homosexual marriage ludicrous”. So who is “we”??? This just illustrates the silliness of the nonsense you’ve been writing here. Speak for yourself, unless someone died and appointed you the spokesperson for all of “we”!

    As far as the rest of the stuff you write – EISH (well more EISH than that which I’ve responded to.

  • Dmwangi

    ‘We’ in the 86%, dilettante.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Dmwangi

    “We’ in the 86%,

    With respect, Dmwangi, more like 98.7% – if, as we should, we reckon all of AFRICA as the relevant pool. But more generally, you are right. Not only is Maggs a “dilettante”, he is also what I call a “rent-seeker” and an “interloper.”

    Thanks a lot.

  • Maggs Naidu – Yikes, another seven years! (maggsnaidu@hotmail.com)

    Dmwangi
    January 21, 2013 at 21:48 pm

    Ok Dm,

    “‘We’ in the 86%, dilettante.”

    I got it.

    So the 300 people who took part in the survey which you quoted somewhere is “we”.

    The other 300 – correction 299 – people asked you to speak on their behalf.

    No wait – I got that wrong – it should be 86% of 300 people.

    Let’s see that’s, hmm 348.8372 people? Doesn’t sound right.

    Ozone Boy – what’s 86% of 300?

  • Brett Nortje

    Nothing I can’t live with here, Maggs?

    Dmwangi says:
    January 21, 2013 at 18:04 pm

  • 12. Freedom and Security of the Person

    Pierre,

    I note with interest your remarks about turning a certain portion of the population into criminals based on them doing, well, basically what humans do:

    “Is it in the best interest of children to turn up to 80% of them into potential criminals?”

    Is criminalising our potheads and the rural farmers who make it all possible not some of the same madness?

    “The alliance’s report has been welcomed by the decriminalisation lobby, particularly activists Jules Stobbs and Myrtle Clarke, Gauteng’s so-called “Dagga Couple”, who want to take the issue to the Constitutional Court later this year.”

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=350309&sn=Detail

    Here we have a plant that is pervasive in our country, freely available probably within a radius of 5km from where any of us live. In rural Eastern Cape you can buy some at every second shebeen. Use is rife. By all accounts 25-30% of the population uses some on a regular basis.

    Legalisation hold many potential advantages including helping to empty our jails somewhat of many “dangerous” criminals including some 71 year old’s:

    http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Gogo-pleads-guilty-to-dagga-dealing-20130121

    It’s an easy to grow product that allows rural South Africa an income and will assist with the distribution of wealth from cities to the farmers. The many uses of the plant are well documented.

    Basically when all is said and done, why can’t I light my joint and smoke it when the guy next door can go and buy his beer and drink it?

    Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

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