Constitutional Hill

Why the hate speech provisions may be unconstitutional

One should be careful not to endorse legislation merely because it is being used in one case against one person whom one may not like very much. It is always better to look in a principled manner at legislation and to ask whether the legislation is good or bad for our democracy and whether the legislation passes constitutional muster. This is why I believe it is important to look critically at the hate speech provision in section 10 of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act (PEPUDA).

Such a critical evaluation will reveal that there are serious questions about the constitutionality of the hate speech provision. In fact, I suspect that the provision is unconstitutional and hope that it will be challenged by someone (Julius are you there?), so that it can be declared invalid by the Constitutional Court. Here are the reasons for this view.

The hate speech provision in PEPUDA has to be tested against section 16(1) of the Constitution. This section guarantees the right to freedom of expression for everyone and includes (but is not restricted to) the freedom of the press and other media; freedom to receive or impart information or ideas; freedom of artistic creativity; and academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.

This freedom is qualified in section 16(2) of the Constitution which states that freedom of expression “does not extend to propaganda for war; incitement of imminent violence; or advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm”.

This means that if Parliament passed a law that prohibits criticism of the President or sets up an elaborate system for the registration of newspapers to try and prevent the flourishing of a free press or prohibits artists from displaying works of art of women embracing, this will contravene the guarantee of freedom of expression and will almost certainly not be justifiable in terms of the limitation clause.

It also means that if Parliament passed a law prohibiting hate speech in accordance with section 16(2), such a provision will not be protected by the Constitution and will thus be constitutionally valid. But what happens if Parliament prohibits hate speech in a manner that is far broader than that envisaged by section 16(2)? That provision will then infringe on the right to freedom of expression set out in section 16(1) and the legal question would be whether the provision was reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom as set out in the limitations clause in section 36 of the Constitution.

It is clear that section 10 of PEPUDA prohibits hate speech in terms far broader than that envisaged by section 16(2) and it thus infringes on the right to freedom of expression set out in section 16(1). This is because section 10 – read with section 12 of PEPUDA – states that:

no one may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on one or more of the prohibited grounds, against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful; be harmful or to incite harm; promote or propagate hatred…. Provided that bona fide engagement in artistic creativity, academic and scientific inquiry, fair and accurate reporting in the public interest or publication of any information, advertisement or notice in accordance with section 16 of the Constitution, is not precluded by this section.

This section is far broader than the section 16(2) exception because it includes speech based on any prohibited ground — not only the grounds of race ethnicity, gender or religion as stipulated in section 16(2). Speech targeting a person based on his or her sexual orientation, pregnancy, marital status, age, disability, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth may therefore also constitute hate speech in terms of the PEPUDA definition.

Secondly, the section does not only prohibit speech that “advocates hatred… and that constitutes incitement to cause harm”. Instead, any speech that can “reasonably be construed to have a clear intention to be hurtful” to any person because that person belongs to one of the listed groups will constitute hate speech.

This means, depending on the context, it may potentially be unlawful to refer to homosexuals as “moffies” (as Fred Kumalo did last weekend in the Sunday Times) or to tell a person that he or she is a pervert and will burn in hell because he or she is gay. Calling someone a “kaffir” or a “Boer” could constitute hate speech as well. When a religious person tells an atheist that he or she has been condemned by God to burn in hell this could also potentially constitute hate speech. If an atheist tells a religious person that he or she is a fool for believing in God or that the God he or she believes in is a cruel and heartless one, or that God is in any case dead, this could constitute hate speech.

Telling a 10 year old that he or she is wet behind the ears and still needs to grow up could constitute hate speech. Telling someone that their home language is ugly or was the language of the oppressor could constitute hate speech. Telling a polygamist that polygamy was a backward and oppressive cultural practice and that he was an oppressor of woman for indulging in polygamy could constitute hate speech. Telling someone that members from his or her ethnic group are lazy, cunning, dishonest or greedy could constitute hate speech.

The list is endless.

As long as one could show on reasonable grounds that there was an intention to be hurtful to a person because he or she belonged to one of the listed groups, the speech would be prohibited. This would depend on the context, but one can imagine that in millions of conversations across South Africa every year people say things about one another based on their attributes or characteristics with the intention to hurt their feelings. Section 10 potentially prohibits all such statements. The definition is therefore so broad that it severely infringes on our rights to freedom of religion and conscience. It also has the potential to severely limit  the expression of political and deeply held personal views.

This is so absurdly broad that it is difficult to see how the Constitutional Court would find that the hate speech provision is nevertheless justifiable in terms of the limitation clause. The limit placed on personal freedom and on the vigorous exchange of ideas so far outweigh the harm that would be caused by the “hurtful” speech, that it could not be said to be justifiable.

This does not mean that PEPUDA could not include a hate speech provision along the lines of section 16(2)(c). It does mean that the current provision is far too broad and is probably unconstitutional.

The current provision is also bad on policy grounds. In a vibrant democracy which respects difference and diversity — also diversity of opinion — it would be dangerous to ban all speech that could be construed as intending to be hurtful to another person merely because of that person’s race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, language, ethnicity, culture or age. Some of us remember all too well how the apartheid government tried to censor our thoughts and our speech. Do we really want to go back to a situation where we are so scared to express our deeply and sincerely held and honest opinions that we shut up because we fear we might be found guilty of hate speech?

I, for one, would not want that.

So, anyone who happens to know Julius Malema, please tell him he should not try to defend himself before the Equality Court regarding his “Kill the Boer” statement. Instead he should challenge the constitutionality of section 10 of PEPUDA and argue that the section is so broad that it could not possibly pass constitutional muster. That way something good might still come out of this mad distraction.

  • John Roberts

    Yawn ! Nothing new here.
    Journalism 101 … don’t repeat yourself.
    You’ve posted the exact argument under a different guise before.

    If you’re under academic pressure to “publish” at least come up with something new.

  • Gerald

    If that is so, better the constitution be changed, than have the killings, as a result of hate speech, begin.

    but, i guess, that will never happen so carry on with your fiddling with your engagement of consititutional gymnastics, at least until the bell tolls for you.

  • sirjay jonson

    Prof, are we not already well on the way to an authoritarian state? I believe I understand your argument, and yet as a societal legal issue, is it good for the state, for it to be economically and socially prosperous, giving opportunity to all.

    We know the history of African states, let alone European and all to many others. There are definite steps in the unfoldment of a Democracy becoming authoritarian, fascist, dictatorial… take your pic.

    I also believe this chant, which is after all speaking with rhythm, says virtually the same thing over and over, kill the boer, and this at a juncture which is now (thanks largely to this chant as the proverbial straw) ready to explode. Regardless of the law relating to the Constitution and PEPUDA, this chant, especially in simple emotional angry misled minds, as is so often exposed in comments, especially on lesser blogs, without question is promoting genocide.

    Don’t think it can’t happen here. It can. Do we wait until carloads of thugs ride through a town shooting at every white they see before we see the effects of today’s ongoing damage? In my western raised view, it is hate speech.

    Christ! We need a peace movement in this country. Where’s John when we need him?

  • Chris

    I’m not so sure that the CC will come to young Julius’ aid. Even if the CC finds sec 10 of PEPUDA to be unconstitutional, what will they do? In all probability they will say sec 10 must, pending new legislation, be read by replacing the words “one or more of the prohibited grounds” with the words “the grounds of race ethnicity, gender or religion” Then section 10 will read as follows:

    “no one may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on
    THE GROUNDS OF RACE, ETHNICITY, GENDER OR RELIGION against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful; be harmful or to incite harm; promote or propagate hatred….”

    And Julius will still be guilty of hate speach, and will have waisted a substantial amount of money. We know that he is poor, and he lives of hand outs, so if I had to give him advice, it would not be to take the road to the Constitutional Court.

  • John Roberts

    @ Chris

    Careful now. Any misunderstanding of Pierre’s post will have him branding you as a dumbed down white beneficiary of AA and Christion National Education.

    Unless you are a legal eagle I suggest you refrain from commenting.

    But then again it’s rather amusing to see the Steve Hofmeyer part of Pierre rear it’s head.

  • Chris

    John Roberts says:
    March 31, 2010 at 19:39 pm

    I am a legal eagle and have argued more cases in court than I can remember, so I know how to stand my ground (or how to concede defeat if it comes to it). I have had my disagreements with Pierre on this blog, and I must say, he has always replied in a dignified manner.

  • John Roberts

    @ Chris

    Maybe that is Pierre’s problem ! One of those academics who’s never seen the inside of a court room nor tried a real case.

    Reminds me a bit of some of my old MBA professors at UCT …. couldn’t run a spaza shop in real life.

  • Dyslexie

    @ John Roberts:

    In case you hadn’t noticed, it appears that sirjay jonson (see above) really needs you to start a peace movement. Any comment?

  • John Roberts

    @ Sirjay

    The respected political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt published an aricle on the road to fascism. Here are the steps. Spot the similarity with the ANC today :

    1.Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottoes, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    2.Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

    3.Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    4.Supremacy of the Military
    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

    5.Rampant Sexism
    The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

    6.Controlled Mass Media
    Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

    7.Obsession with National Security
    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

    8.Religion and Government are Intertwined
    Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

    9.Corporate Power is Protected
    The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

    10.Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

    11.Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

    12.Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

    13.Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

    14.Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

  • Chris
  • blue

    well i guess you proffesionals dont want me on this blog i do have something to say , while you going on about the latest political stuff in the country , there is familly’s waiting for you to to give attention to them, yes you have prepared supper and all that goes with it , and the minute you have a chance you on the blob (blog??) again it just go on and on ,Have you save the world today with your words,in my opinion you just a crowd who doesnt want to spent some quite time with your family , instead you use this big words to impress your readers , and whom is crazy about it , well bored guys say thank you to the woman who is waiting for that ten minute or less attention they get !Its no wonder there ‘s so many divorces

    from blue a dumb woman

  • sirjay jonson

    John Roberts has a point Prof: entirely my own findings.

  • sirjay jonson

    Here’s a question to ponder. Are white Sefricans overseas, actually in exile.

  • Brett Nortje

    John Roberts has actually made a contribution withour resorting to mindless abuse?

  • Maggs Naidu

    Chris says:
    March 31, 2010 at 19:33 pm

    “no one may publish, propagate, advocate or communicate words based on
    THE GROUNDS OF RACE, ETHNICITY, GENDER OR RELIGION against any person, that could reasonably be construed to demonstrate a clear intention to be hurtful; be harmful or to incite harm; promote or propagate hatred….”

    Could something like “Stop Zuma” or “Fight back” be regarded as hate speech?

  • John Roberts

    At the end of the day I don’t think hate speech is the problem.
    The problem is dumb speech.
    How do we stop the dumb from being heard ?

    I propose a compulsory NIT (National Intelligence Test) comprising a mix of IQ,EQ,EI and political acumen.

    People who score below the pass level of say 75% should not be allowed to speak. In addition, those that are allowed to speak must have a tax clearance certificate and a clean criminal record.

    That way, most of these problems would be solved.

  • Thomas

    John Roberts: YOU’VE FAILED THE TEST.

  • Henri

    I can’t see how calling a boer a “boer” will be hate speech. Boere call themselves boere. Everyday.
    I regularly start affidavits for motion court with, eg :” Ek is ‘n meerderjarige besigheidsman en boer woonagtig te die plaas Protespan in die distrik Burgersdorp….”

  • Henri
  • John Roberts


    If you look at the date of the post you’ll realise that YOU fail.

  • Chris

    I fail to understand what all the blabbering is about now that Zume fired Malema and then resigned this morning.

  • CD

    Sirjay, we did have a peace movement in this country, albeit without a name and without a formal embodiment. It was headed by profoundly wise men, two of whom were Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Tutu. You know, those who are now told to sit down and shut up. The problem is that the Mbeki years (I refer to him to set the time frame of events, not necessarily to blame him for everything) failed to follow up on the goodwill that existed by creating capacity for delivery and effecting that delivery to the many downtrodden in this country. To some greater or lesser degree we were all at fault and contributed to this. We all missed the golden opportunity; none of us did enough to reach out a hand to others, to help, to uplift, to share. The result is what we all see now.

  • Sine

    Chris says:
    April 1, 2010 at 9:43 am

    LOL! Nice one…

  • unknown

    John Roberts
    March 31, 2010 at 20:43 pm

    @ Sirjay

    The respected political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt published an aricle on the road to fascism. Here are the steps. Spot the similarity with the ANC today :

    Dude… you could have used that little exercise to determine if USA/UK/Europe are facist… you must have been living under a rock somewhere in Africa for the past 20 years … 😛

  • Donovan

    On the road to fascism posted by John. It is quite interesting. Just some questions, was the apartheid state a fascist state? If it was what happened to to all the beneficiaries of the apartheid state, especially in the private sector that colluded with the apartheid state and was a part of the corrupt activities of the apartheid state? Did these companies, their CEOs and management disappear, or are they still around? Is it only the apartheid politicians who were responsible for apartheid, not the voters, and not private sector?

  • Gwebecimele

    @ John Roberts

    What makes u think u will pass this National Intelligence test?

    By the way apartheid was supported by the majority of wealthy taxpayers.

  • mzo

    I was listening to a radie show yesterday and someone said something that I found very interesting, about the song that we always sing whenever one of the liberation stalwarts pass on. It goes something like this:

    “hamba kahle Mkhonto, we mkhonto, mkhonto weSizwe….

    thina bant’boMkhonto sizimisele ukuwabulala wona lamabhunu’

    Loosely translated, the second line means “we, members of Mkhonto (basically, liberations struggle), we intend to KILL THESE BOERS”.

    Now, this song was sung at Hani’s, Tambo’s and other struggle hero’s funerals, especially those that we instrumental in the formation of uMkhonto weSizwe. The interesting question is: will people have to remix this song or not sing it at all when the icon Madiba passes on?….I wonder!!

  • mzo

    I meant “radio show”…

  • Sine

    @ Mzo

    Interesting question indeed… I love that song as well but I always sing “lamabhulu” not ‘bhunu’, for obvious reasons.

    Well, in my opinion I see nothing wrong with struggle songs including the one you have quoted above. However, we ought to note a difference between a struggle song on one hand, and a message of hatred emanating from a political leader on another hand.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Sine says:
    April 1, 2010 at 10:13 am

    Heita – welcome back!

  • Maggs Naidu

    Gwebecimele says:
    April 1, 2010 at 11:27 am

    Hey Gwebe,

    Is there a minimum entry level?

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Maggs

    I guess the proven Western standards such as IQ will be imposed in all our rural uneducated masses. Fail means u loose your citizenship, apartheid style.

  • Spuy

    I have quitely followed this noise about the singing of the “kill the boer” which Julius Malema sang while addressing the students of the University of Johannesburg. What I fail to understand is the following (maybe Mr Roberts) can clarify this:
    1. How many students who are boers were listeninig?
    2. dont we have black boers?

    Singing these songs from time to time myself, also as a trade union leader, I can assure you that we sing in a context to advance a certain kind of struggle to achieve a certain end.

    You might not be aware that most of the time when (Black ANC) government employees are on strike, they sing songs like:

    1. Bolal’ u Moleketi (kill Moleketi) in the 1997 Public Service Strike. This was not literally meant hence there was no brooooha about hate songs at that time.

    The little point I am trying to make is that we always sing these songs in context. It is an open secret that the ANCYL has been advocating for free tertiary education for some time now. Our understanding as the progressives, is that Cde Malema was simply just singing the song to say we now have to advance a certain class struggle, that of realising that the Freedom Charter is realised in our life time. Hence I am saying we do have many black “boers” lately – it is nonsensical and to say Malema was literally meaning “whites” must be killed. I am personally actively involved in the ANCYL campaign to attract and recruit white youth to the league.

  • Gwebecimele

    Hate can be transmitted in varous forms other than speech. HATE thrives in the presence of racism, bigotry, arrogance, elitism, inequality, tribalism, self righteosness, selfishness etc. Now lets rather focus on the determinants.

  • Spuy

    You guys should try and get hold of the speech that followed that singing to actually realise that it had nothing to do with killing of anyone. This literal interpreting of struggle songs is hypocrisy and madness. If people have EXCESSIVE PARANOIA, they must just consult the mental health practitioners (for free if needs me)!

    I am bloody tired of these people who are paranoid about evrything and everyone – you ‘d swear that they were the ones who were oppressed the way they are going on! Blacks should be the ones fearing being confused for “baboons” or “dogs” when they get shot while hunting because they come from such brutal acts, not the ones who are still holding lethal weapons to date (and they know themselves)

  • Maggs Naidu

    Spuy says:
    April 1, 2010 at 14:02 pm

    The impact of SA’s iniquitous past and current abhorrent acts are not sufficiently in the public domain.

    The so called “hate speech”, while distasteful at worst, is given far too much prominence in part, in my view, in order to detract from the real challenges that face transformation.

  • Peter Teague

    This erudite hogwash astounds me. You seem to have all the answers but no way of sorting out the fundamental problem.
    The singing of these songs does nothing to bring our people together. You can analyze and interpret for us until the cows come home and still not honestly say that the singing of the songs is good for all who live in this our beautiful country.
    Get real and put pressure on those who seek the limelight but couldn’t care less about the long term damage created by their comments and actions.


    ANCYL international relations officer Abner Mosaase said the South African youth movement will pledge solidarity with Zanu-PF.

    A meeting with President Robert Mugabe has been set up and at least five government ministers have lined themselves up to meet the visitor.

    Is this what the people of SA wants?

    This places the speech in it’s real context, the Mugabe example is the one to strive to, no place for anybody except the for the chosen few.

  • Brett Nortje

    Spuy, you can indulge in all the sophistry you want. Just give me an example of political leaders in a civilised country chanting noise like ‘Kill the Boer! Kill the farmer’.

    Then you can tell us how many farmers have been murdered in that civilised country.

    Belgium perhaps? Anyone got any records of someone chanting ‘Kill the farmer! Kill the frog?’

    I note no-one is taking up the challenge? Tell us what the homicide rate is where the perpetrators are black and the victims white, and v.v.

    Your continued use of statistically insignificant instances of POACHERS mistaken for animals are dishonest. Simply put: how many such examples can you cite?

  • sirjay jonson

    Happy fools day all. JuJu’s visit to Mad Bob and the Green Bombers should raise lots of interesting flags. Mud always settles to the bottom, eventually.

  • sirjay jonson

    In the Tarot, for those who may not know, the Fool is a principal character in the shifting of one’s life and society. Dylan’s song ‘Jack of Hearts’ speaks to it as well, brilliantly as always.

    And one can easily see how our very own Fool is changing our society. The civilized world watches in both concern and humor. Oh how the mighty fall when the Fool appears. And it all happens in time.

    CD: that was then, what now? Elders need to retire, trusting and praying their lives have produced stimulus. Even saints become fatigued.

  • Chris

    mzo says:
    April 1, 2010 at 11:35 am

    You do remember that the funeral goers at the Hani funeral murdered a couple of ‘Boers” they met along the way. But I suppose the singing had nothing to do with the murders.

  • John Roberts

    @ Spuy

    Why don’t you give us the exact figures for the urban legend you seem to believe about blacks shot whilst mistaken for baboons.

    I can recall 2 such excuses in the last 25 years.

    And tell me what the marauding black murderers mistake whites for every single night in the suburbs ?

    Most nights I stand on my patio and look out over the suburbs and think : Who’s turn is it tonight to be murdered and raped by black scum”

    I have wait until the next days news to find out, though. But there is some white family murdered every night.

    So fuck right off with your infantile bantu education arguments.

  • John-Michael

    Spuy says:

    “You guys should try and get hold of the speech that followed that singing to actually realise that it had nothing to do with killing of anyone. ”

    “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,'” Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t – till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!'”
    “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument,'” Alice objected.
    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
    “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

  • sirjay jonson

    I think John Roberts, as much as he may discomfort us, speaks out about the horror he sees in south africa. He represents our SA life as much as anyone in this wondrous country, or those commenting on this blog..

    I’ve seen my share of violence, rape and murder as well, mostly in the black and colored communities where murder, rape and violent crime are the norm far surpassing that in the white communities, and never reported in our local media (don’t want to shake up the cultured locals you know, or the desirability of our village as a tourist attraction). And yet black on white crime also happens in my relatively protected privileged white dorp where occasionally an elderly white woman is raped and murdered, stabbed and/or mutilated. Only occasionally is it a cobra which takes her. Interesting, cobras and puff adders are less of a threat.

    Remember the film Apocalypse Now (1979): :”the horror, oh the horror of it all”. Was it different than what happens in much of continental Africa every day. We don’t want it here, period. If we blame this man for his righteous anger, then we really do have our head in the sand. Think of the young woman raped and who lost her hands life for muti. Could one state that this was merely an economic crime.

    Don’t blame those who are angry and truly pissed at the injustices.

    Its not just black anger that can destroy this country.

  • Clara Wieghorst

    They didn’t see it coming in Nazi Germany. They didn’t see it coming in Rwanda.

    The Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, while criminalising incitement to commit genocide, says a lot about punishment but little about prevention.

    The early stages of genocide consist of propaganda against the targeted group. In the South African example, it’s more than just the ‘Shoot the Boer’ chant. How often is it said that “whites still own 87% of all land” or “whites still have their hands on the levers of the economy”? “”It’s all the fault of the whites!” Now substitute “whites” with “Jews” in Nazi Germany, and remember what happened then.

  • John Roberts


    You are a wise soul. I do recognise that crime impacts all races.
    However, as discomforting as it is to say, I don’t know of any white gangs that enter the townships or the suburbs at night to rape, murder and pillage.

  • Brett Nortje

    Having poisoned those people’s pets first.

  • Brett Nortje

    There is no ambiguity about the precedents. Where in history has the disarmament of an ethnic minority by an ethnic majority not been followed by genocide?

    Why is the ANC so hell-bent on disarming elderly white South Africans? Why the dirty tricks? Why the fraud about paying compensation as the FCA requires?

  • kenneth

    clara and john

    what you guys says it is a clear rightwing mentality and i do not think you will ever change, you down play the 300years of economic disarm of the natives by your ancestors, you know some of the reason apartheid died is because the west found it to be so barbaric for them to support it, hence you talk as if you guys you are victims.

    it is the fact that 80% of the wealth of the country is under white people, we do not plan to commit genocide on anybody that that is probably your fantacy, transformation should occur to redress those imbalances of the past .

  • abidam


    Are you happy with
    how the present government is running the country?
    how for every rand spent on the poor some intermediate palm gets greased?
    how the Mugabe way is the way of the future?
    the sewer running down the streets, the hospitals falling apart the list is endless…
    If you are not happy then the country may have a future.

  • John Roberts

    @ Kenneth

    I suggest you get out some decent history books.
    What 300 years are you referring to ?
    Apartheid was only 48 years old when it died.

    It’s just another ignorant excuse you people use to avoid the fact of non-performance in a civilized society.

    I’m sure every nation in the world has a barbaric past. It’s the way the world was. Remember the San ? They were the original owners of the land but were wiped out by marauding Zulu and Xhosa.

    Your selective history may work on people with your IQ level but it doesn’t wash here.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Spuy

    “I am personally actively involved in the ANCYL campaign to attract and recruit white youth to the league.”

    Spuy, my own son turns 15 this year, and I am desirous that he finds a political home. Please send the application forms. (BTW, he has a fine singing voice!)

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Spuy

    You are right, of course, that the imperative “Kill the Boer” is not meant literally. Problem is some of these very Boers are going to come to court and say that, when they use the term “kaffir,” they do not LITERALLY mean a person who fails to recognise that Allah is the one true God and that Mohamed is his Prophet.

    That aside: What everyone in this debate is missing is that our Constitution articulates substantive, not formal, equality. Hate speech is a form of speech that targets structurally vulnerable groups. Whites are not vulnerable as a group. Blacks are. End of story!

  • Maggs Naidu

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    April 2, 2010 at 9:57 am

    Hey Dworky,

    Happy Easter.

    Found any eggs?

    I didn’t.

    I came across some nuts though!

  • Maggs Naidu

    kenneth says:
    April 2, 2010 at 7:27 am

    “it is the fact that 80% of the wealth of the country is under white people,”

    Let’s not get too carried away.

    There’s a recent report that says that Blacks own less than 2% of the JSE.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, I take strong exception to you using the disparaging term “nut” to refer to John Roberts and other intellectuals on this blog who are well beyond your juvenile (easter-egg hunting) sensibility. Cruel epithets targeting the mentally disabled arguably constitute a form of hate speech. So, I demand that you desist.

    BTW, I see that your own sillyness continues to reverberate, Tsunami-like, in waves of laughter across the globe. According to AP, schoolchildren in Adelaide were sent home on Wednesday, after the guffaws prompted by your idiot postings disrupted classes.

  • Brett Nortje

    So, Dworky, it is your considered opinion that people who take leaders of the ANC at their viva voce are nuts, while the legal professionals who exhort us to have faith in the ANC are not?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Brett, I would not use the word “nuts,” even in jest.

    People who harbour paranoid fantasies about the ANC deserve our respect, love and support — not derision.

  • kenneth


    long before berlin conference the DUTCH EAST INDIAN COMPANY,decided to to establish refreshment station, that was 1652,the grazing land of the natives was taken and even the cows. so raping of our land did not start with the NATS, but long ago,you should also remember john that the land was forcefully taken, after 1994 we did not seek revenge, we accepted and welcome insults from people like you with high”IQ”, .some of your friends with similar mentality left the country to austrlia, i advice you to do the same so that you can stay with people who are competant, i mean if you cannot stay in banana republic go to apple republic and also remember that if you do not share riches with the poor, the poor will share poverty with you.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    April 2, 2010 at 11:02 am

    “Maggs, I take strong exception to you using the disparaging term “nut” to refer to John Roberts and other intellectuals on this blog who are well beyond your juvenile (easter-egg hunting) sensibility. Cruel epithets targeting the mentally disabled arguably constitute a form of hate speech. So, I demand that you desist.”

    I, as an uneducated illiterate, would never imply that the intellectuals are nuts.

    Neither would I refer to genuinely mentally challenged people as nuts.

    I implied just nuts!

    p.s. “According to AP, schoolchildren in Adelaide were sent home on Wednesday, after the guffaws prompted by your idiot postings disrupted classes.” – did you hot-wire Pierre’s blog to get the links?

    p.p.s. I heard from a reliable source that M&G and the Times are considering a JV, using my comments there as material for ZANews – now if someone could just point the relevant references out it would be useful.

  • Maggs Naidu

    kenneth says:
    April 2, 2010 at 7:27 am


    It’s best you get your dates and history correct.

    It is well known that oppression only started in 1948 with apartheid legislation- people who had acquired power through the gun and the vote, got up on the fateful morning of the infamous general election day and decide to suppress Blacks from that day going forward – it was unplanned, unanticipated and sort of just happened quite by chance.

    For example, the pass laws of 1872, the Franchise and Ballot Act of 1892, land act of 1913 all happened after the 1948 election.

    Now I hope you understand history a bit better.

  • kenneth

    my father was born before 1918, he was a last born out of 8 children and my grandfather was born 18***, my brother was born 1955 that is the first born of my father,so your history and my history will differ a bit, i got it first hand from my father, who was also taught my his father too, they were there before 1948 they have seen it all.only the beneficiary of evil system will defend it, i would like to advice you mr Naidu to do more research on racism before 1948 you will learn a lot ny brother,and just add the grave of my grand father is still on the farm. where he was forcefully removed(FACT).

  • Maggs Naidu

    kenneth says:
    April 2, 2010 at 13:57 pm

    “only the beneficiary of evil system will defend it” – indeed.

    “i would like to advice you mr Naidu to do more research on racism before 1948 you will learn a lot ny brother” – perhaps you should reread my comment, just maybe you will find that we concur.

    I may be inflicted with ADIS (Acquired Dworky Irony Syndrome) from crossing paths too often with our resident Dwork!

  • kenneth


    we do concur

  • John Roberts


    Your selective memory is rather amusing. In 1652 your Inguni ancestor tribes were still only moving into SA from the North-East, killing and raping and stealing along the way. There were only a few San in the Cape. You can’t use today’s geographical borders for some insane claim to the land when you yourself came from far up North.

    And here’s some capitalistic advice : Fuck the poor !

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ John Roberts

    It has become increasingly clear that you have an advanced degree from a prestigious university.

    Thank you for sharing your insights.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder says:
    April 2, 2010 at 16:40 pm

    It’s interesting that Vasco da Gama made up some cock-and-bull story in 1497 about his supposed meeting of the Nguni people who were supposedly established in the Cape then.

    Bartholomew Diaz too made up some similar tales a decade earlier.

    As we have just learned the Nguni people we still only moving into SA from the North-East in 1652.

    Any bet that Diaz and da Gama were out jolling with their buddies and made up those travel tales to avoid their wives finding out about that?

  • John Roberts

    Vasco da Gama only ever wrote about the inhabitants on the west coast of Africa. These are his own words that follow from his book . As you will see little has changed. Blacks like yo pretend they were noble savages before encounters with the white man :

    On Tuesday (November 7) we returned to the land, which we found to be low, with a broad bay opening into it. The captain-major [i.e., da Gama speaking in the third person] sent Pero d’Alenquer in a boat to take soundings and to search for good anchoring ground. The bay was found to be very clean, and to afford shelter against all winds except those from the N.W. It extended east and west, and we named it Santa Helena.

    On Wednesday (November 8) we cast anchor in this bay, and we remained there eight days, cleaning the ships, mending the sails, and taking in wood. The river Samtiagua (S. Thiago) enters the bay four leagues to the S.E. of the anchorage. It comes from the interior (sertao), is about a stone’s throw across at the mouth, and from two to three fathoms in depth at all states of the tide.

    The inhabitants of this country are tawny-colored. Their food is confined to the flesh of seals, whales and gazelles, and the roots of herbs. They are dressed in skins, and wear sheaths over their virile members. They are armed with poles of olive wood to which a horn, browned in the fire, is attached. Their numerous dogs resemble those of Portugal, and bark like them. The birds of the country, likewise, are the same as in Portugal, and include cormorants, gulls, turtle doves, crested larks, and many others. The climate is healthy and temperate, and produces good herbage. On the day after we had cast anchor, that is to say on Thursday (November 9), we landed with the captain-major, and made captive one of the natives, who was small of stature like Sancho Mexia. This man had been gathering honey in the sandy waste, for in this country the bees deposit their honey at the foot of the mounds around the bushes. He was taken on board the captain-major’s ship, and being placed at table he ate of all we ate. On the following day the captain-major had him well dressed and sent ashore.

    On the following day (November 10) fourteen or fifteen natives came to where our ship lay. The captain-major landed and showed them a variety of merchandise, with the view of finding out whether such things were to be found in their country. This merchandise included cinnamon, cloves, seed-pearls, gold, and many other things, but it was evident that they had no knowledge whatever of such articles, and they were consequently given round bells and tin rings. This happened on Friday, and the like took place on Saturday.

    On Sunday (November 12) about forty or fifty natives made their appearance, and having dined, we landed, and in exchange for the ‡eitils with which we came provided, we obtained shells, which they wore as ornaments in their ears, and which looked as if they had been plated, and foxtails attached to a handle, with which they fanned their faces. The captain-major also acquired for one ‡eitil one of the sheaths which they wore over their members, and this seemed to show that they valued copper very highly; indeed, they wore small beads of that metal in their ears.

    On that day Fernao Velloso, who was with the captain-major, expressed a great desire to be permitted to accompany the natives to their houses, so that he might find out how they lived and what they ate. The captain-major yielded to his importunities, and allowed him to accompany them, and when we returned to the captain-major’s vessel to sup, he went away with the negroes. Soon after they had left us they caught a seal, and when they came to the foot of a hill in a barren place they roasted it, and gave some of it to Fernao Velloso, as also some of the roots which they eat. After this meal they expressed a desire that he should not accompany them any further, but return to the vessels. When Fernao Velloso came abreast of the vessels he began to shout, the negroes keeping in the bush.

    We were still at supper; but when his shouts were heard the captain-major rose at once, and so did we others, and we entered a sailing boat. The negroes then began running along the beach, and they came as quickly up with Fernao Velloso as we did, and when we endeavored to get him into the boat they threw their assegais, and wounded the captain-major and three or four others. All this happened because we looked upon these people as men of little spirit, quite incapable of violence, and had therefore landed without first arming ourselves. We then returned to the ships.

  • sirjay jonson

    Have you seen this email doing the rounds: only bother reading if you’re interested. Time to rid oneself of any guilt.

    Proud to be White

    Michael Richards makes his point……………..
    Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TVs Seinfeld does make a good point.

    This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his comedy act. He makes some very interesting points… Someone finally said it. How many are actually paying attention to this? There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc. what are we? Just Americans?

    And then there are just Americans. You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You call me ‘White boy,’ ‘Cracker,’ ‘Honkey,’ ‘Whitey,’ ‘Caveman’… and that’s OK..

    But when I call you, Nigger, Kike, Towel head, Camel Jockey, Gook, or Chink .. You call me a racist.

    You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you… so why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live?

    You have the United Negro College Fund. You have Martin Luther King Day.

    You have Black History Month. You have Cesar Chavez Day.

    You have Yom Hashoah. You have Ma’uled Al-Nabi.

    You have the NAACP. You have BET. If we had WET (White Entertainment Television), we’d be racists. If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.

    If we had White History Month, we’d be racists.

    If we had any organization for only whites to ‘advance’ OUR lives, we’d be racists.

    We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce. Wonder who pays for that??

    A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any color can be in the Miss America pageant.

    If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships… You know we’d be racists.

    There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US .. Yet if there were ‘White colleges’, that would be a racist college.

    In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us racists.

    You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you’re not afraid to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.

    You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug dealer running from the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

    I am also proud…. But you call me a racist.

    Why is it that only whites can be racists??

    There is nothing improper about this e-mail.. Let’s see which of you are proud enough to send it on. I sadly don’t think many will. That’s why we have LOST most of OUR RIGHTS in this country. We won’t stand up for ourselves!


    It’s not a crime YET… but getting very close.

    It is estimated that ONLY 5% of those reaching this point in this e-mail, will pass it on, the rest of you are probably just chicken shit.

    Steve’s not.

  • Clara Wieghorst

    Nguni people established in the Cape in 1497? Sorry Maggs, make that in what is now Durban.

    As for the people whom the first European settlers encountered at the Cape, those were not the San, but rather the descendants of the San (who called themselves Kung) and Indian gold prospectors who arrived in Southern Africa roughly 1000 years ago. They called themselves Quena but preferred to introduce themselves to the newcomers as Otentottu. This according to the historian Cyril A. Hromnik.

  • Maggs Naidu

    Clara Wieghorst says:
    April 2, 2010 at 20:09 pm

    Hey Clara – the Xhosa people were in the Eastern Cape.

  • sirjay jonson

    Prof: I don’t know who your friends are, but I know who mine are. Me and mine love this country for the majestic mix of cultures, skin colors and varieties. However, the reality is we who are white have become the jew of previous and also present pogrom eras. We must somehow end this. I have friends and loved ones in so many cultures. I love them as I love the variety of plants and flowers in my many gardens.

    Since its Easter, may I say? May Peace reign on Earth and in South Africa, and may this present racist nonsense stop.

  • Michael Osborne

    Sirjay, why one earth would one be proud to be “white”?

    Usually, one is proud of things for which one can take credit.

    So fas as I know, the melanin level of my epidermis is genetically determined.

    I can be neither proud nor ashamed thereof,

  • Maggs Naidu

    Michael Osborne says:
    April 2, 2010 at 22:07 pm


    “Comments: Though this racist rant has been widely disseminated online and seems especially popular on Neo-Nazi and “white power” websites, it dates from well before Michael Richards’ infamous onstage tirade against African-American audience members at the L.A. Laugh Factory on November 17, 2006. He did not write it, nor could it have constituted his “defense speech in court,” given that there were no charges filed and no court trial ever took place.

    “It is also at odds with Richards’ stated apology after the videotaped incident, in which he said he was “deeply, deeply sorry” for shouting racial epithets at two black men who had heckled him during his performance at the comedy club.

    “The true author of the text is unknown.”

  • obelix

    am i missing something between all the legal / academic babble? as far as i can determine the constitution is a “living” document and should be read in the context of the interim constitution of 1994 whereby it says

    “The Constitution shall prohibit racial, gender and all other forms of discrimination and shall promote racial and gender equality and national unity”

    as far as can be determined, there is no promotion of national unity by singing struggle songs (or calling one another names e.g. shoot the k****r for that matter). the struggle is over or are we now squabbling to get the most money, power etc???

    i read the whole CODESA history / liberation / drafting of the interim constitution this morning and felt proud to see how so many opposing sides could come to an agreement after human rights abuse, just to return to hate etc. morgan freeman said in invictus “I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul”

    maybe we should all think free

  • sirjay jonson

    Michael: I think you missed the point altogether. Even in Canada whites are the minority in one of its largest cities, Vancouver. Whites, being educated, concerned about population, environment, human rights, rule of law, concerned about expense of raising children well educated to follow them, have fewer children. As a result whites are becoming or actually are already a minority, and there’s lots of ignorant and prejudiced anger out there towards us. Such people hate America and modern western llife for all they ignorantly believe3 all it stands for when realistically it’s still the worlds one hope.

    In SA our government associates with dictators, repressive states, votes in the UN for repression, and has become a truly nauseating state, from a democratic civilized view that is. Children in a sandbox.

    Black pride this, Hispanic and Muslim pride that; nearly all cultures depend on having pride for themselves, their cultures, their benefits to life. Do you not have pride for yourself and your family. I gather its natural. Here we have a previously dominant white culture world wide which is being eroded daily, not just in South Africa. The point, if I may suggest, is that we whites need to recognize that we are white, having had no choice who sperm’d our existence, have no need for guilt or inferiority, no need to shrink in shame as though we have committed some great crime. We have given much to the world and will continue to do so. Check your NGO’s and NPO’s across the disadvantaged world, and guess what, its largely white men and women struggling against incredible odds to improve the lives of the oppressed. Only education can improve ignorance and this government isn’t willing to give it.

    On another vein, I’ve been talking to lots of my boer and colored friends, although have yet to question my black buddies who mostly seem embarrassed when we meet, and for that matter I’m now uneasy as well, and you know what, preparations are being made, allegiances are being established, commitments confirmed. If you get the drift? What JuJu as an ignoramus has done, quite possibly has put all SA on fire.

    Would you not now consider that we’re more than likely in deep kak; speaking as a dorp man in the field, in the townships and on the street

    And yes, I’m proud of being white, and a non racist, and beginning to resent being denigrated and threatened by juvenile thugs and ‘should know better’ elders, our political leaders.

  • obelix

    @ sirjay

    couldn’t agree more. maybe the guys in psychology can help us all with the inferiority complex across the colour scheme. maybe just forget colour and think people.

  • sirjay jonson

    obelix: as long as colour is so emphasized in SA, forced on us, then to deny it is to deny our vulnerability. A Canadian Indian elder once defended me in a pipe ceremony, when I worked and lived with Canadian aboriginal Indians, when a militant in the piipe circle complained about my presence: I quote (and he was 96 years old having been trained by an elder who never met a white man)… ‘all brothers and sisters have blood which is red, the sooner we accept this, the better.’

  • obelix

    sirjay: agree with you 100% but there lies the accept means defeat in the eyes of the inferiority complex..or so we think. can’t really think that all this hatred is making us happy. only happiness we / i get is laughing at the village idiot

  • sirjay jonson

    To be truthful, it is only after ten years in SA, that I have come to recognize myself as a white man. I’ve always just thought of myself as a man, period. In a sense this country is really damaging to you with respect to identification, especially having come from Canada where such distinctions were never much thought of. My only previous experiences of bigotry and hatred were from teenage friends who complained about my dating a Jewish girl (my first experience of prejudice) and the American Indian Militant who complained about my being in a pipe circle, which I had attended previously repeatedly without such complaint).

    I came to SA because of my respect for Madiba and to help in any way i could, being retired and restless. After a decade of enjoying this incredible country, I find that I’m a white man, what a concept.

  • sirjay jonson

    Village Idiot: his/her greatest contribution has been to clarify the sycophantic fan boy, ignorant, self serving, racist, cruel, greed mongering juvenile, misdirected, gangsta rapped, uneducated, threatened, oblivious, impotent, mistreated, disadvantaged by himself, pueriled, desperate, condemned, hopeless and and in need of compassion, a sincere hug and probably a good lay.

    Thanks for the opportunity to describe the troll and all his ilk. That they believe anyone really listens, says it all.

  • Michael Osborne

    @ Sirjay

    “nearly all cultures depend on having pride for themselves, their cultures, their benefits to life. Do you not have pride for yourself and your family. I gather its natural”

    I still fail to understand.

    Of course one can be proud of one’s culture. Culture is a creative human artifact. Once can excel in art, sciences, or other cultural products. But I do not create my own race. Nor can one develop excellence in being “black” of “Asian.” (I can no more be proud of being white than be proud of being tall, or having a medium-sized nose, or freckles.)

    Black pride is a sign of (and perhaps necessary therapy for), the imposed inferiority of white racism. But racial pride is, in this sense, is a sign of weakness, not vitality. For whites to respond to black pride with their own chauvanism strikes me as foolish, and a dangerous revival of bigotry.

  • sirjay jonson

    Michael: re “the imposed inferiority of white racism.” I assume you meant the imposed ‘superiority’ of white racism. Is black pride racist or chauvinism? I personally don’t agree with that. I think black pride is important considering the past and their persecution. Think Steve Biko. I think you misunderstand me. What I’ve come to realize is that we all, whatever culture we spring from, need to be proud of who we are (if we have something to be proud of). I believe that, more than anything else, honest, even subconscious impressions of self, lead to feeling equal or unequal to those who also feel proud of themselves and their culture, family,country, beliefs.

    White pride is not necessarily chauvinistic. Ideally, it’s releasing guilt and shame for actions of our forefathers. Its accepting that I am who I am, and who I am is something to be proud of, or not, dependent on what I recognize and believe I am, and what I have offered to others in sincerity. The difficulty in this most racial conscious country is that there is no consideration of detail about the man or the woman, just condemnation or acceptance based on color.

  • Michael Osborne

    Sirjay, I mean that white racism imposed a neurosis of inferiority on blacks — see Biko, whom you mention.

    But why be “proud” of one’s race, for heavens sake? The point — and I think we agree to this — is to honour a culture. The great confusion of racists, black and white, is to conflate culture with race.

    But, especially in a multicutural, globalised world, most of us have more in common with many people of a different ethnicity than we have in common with others who happen to share our pigmentation, but whose socio-economic class, interests, views and art is quite alien.

    I agree with you that it is senseless for the great grandchildren of colonialists to cringe in guilt for their crimes. What we must recognise, though, in SA, is that this generation at least of whites is the beneficiary of apartheid. That fact arguably imposes certain moral obligations.

  • sirjay jonson

    Michael: We are in agreement. Cheers man. My woman is calling, time for bed, mustn’t let her down. Oh life is so challenging. We’ll chat again.

  • Philippa

    @ Pierre
    Seems to me that you’re angling at becoming legal advisor to one Mr Malema – to the extent that he is now quoting you in the press?!? Can’t you let him just waste our taxes by consulting with his own lawyers?

  • deets

    i just have to say one thing after reading all these comments, if everybody would keep there noses out of other peoples business every thing would be just a little better. oh and give all of africa back to the natives that deserve it…. oh wait..m that would mean all of you xhosa and zulus to get back to kenya and tanzania, oh shit but wait, you only want what the white man made for you here in the good old S OF A. … every one in this country is sooo pathetic. there is space for everyone, i just dont want to live next to someone that is not of my ilk or culture. jealousy is the curse of africa , ten or 100 years later. and it will never change

  • deets

    oh and if you try and argue that point.. dont. thats just how it is. even the best educated white , black, yellow , blue people in the world are addicted to power.

    it will all fall apart….. and then hopefully get better.

    loving africa , just not all who lives here

  • deets

    viva nationalisation.. viva land distrubution.. viva all our people having no food or schools… viva no agriculture.. viva zimbabwe .. viva no freedom of speech.. viva a country going down the tubes VIVA.. viva the farmers trying to feed this country viva the man in the street wanting a good life .. viva the malemas fucking it all up.. viva burnining the schools… viva the hand out nation we have, viva all the people who know whats going on leaving VIVA…. you all who want to rape pillage and murder this continent for you own pockets VIVA VIVA VIVA.
    have fun you useless bunch o cunts… VIVA

  • deets

    this was all left by an agriculturally minded black south african, who realises that without the honky tonk muther fuker who pays the wages to my family in the country, i would not be able to even write.

    peace you alll

  • kenneth

    i think deets and john roberts nave contaminated this blog with the type of the language not acceptable here, it is the first time i read words like f..k,i do not think prof expected this type of bipolar in this blog

  • drake

    Keep it clean guys.. (lest you are inciting violence…)

  • deets

    i do apologise for my language, yesterday i was just really upset by what i read and see in the media, sorry all.

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