I voted today in Sea Point. It took fifteen minutes from the time I arrived at the polling station to the time I had cast my vote. Most of the voters in my voting district (I assume, based on previous election results) were DA voters. On television I see that there have been long queues in especially poor areas (which, past results suggest, would be ANC strongholds). Queues of three or four hours seemed to have been standard in some areas.
My question is: why the long queues in some areas? Why the lack of ballot papers? Why not more polling stations in poor areas?
I would have imagined that the IEC would make sure that ALL voters – rich and poor, black and white – would have been treated the same.
Anecdotal evidence suggest that voters in especially poor areas were often required to stand in queues much longer than voters in the affluent areas. Why?
The Constitution guarantees the right to equality for everyone. But, unless media reports are wrong, poor people often had a far more onerous task in order to ensure that they cast their ballot. Why?
Is this part of the inherent bias of state institutions towards the middle and upper classes or merely bad planning on the part of the IEC? Who knows? Either way, the IEC should do better to ensure that ALL are treated more or less the same on election day.
The fact that many people still stood in queues for many hours to cast their vote is a good sign. It means people still believe that voting really matters. While one vote cannot change anything, if every person decided not to vote because of that fact, it would completely sabotage democracy.
One vote cannot get anyone into Parliament, but voting is always a collective matter. Election day is a day in which we are reminded that we are all in this together. If many persons thought their vote would not count, this could lead to the election of an unpopular party. This happened in Zimbabwe in the election before the referendum in 2000 where the vast majority of voters did not bother to vote, giving Zanu-PF an 80% majority despite the fact that only about 40% of voters actually cast their ballots.
And in 2000, All Gore lost the election because of a 300 ballot margin in Florida. And the poor people of Iraq and the USA had to live with the consequences.
Every vote DOES count. Saying that it does not seems to me astonishingly narrow minded and takes individualism to absurd heights.
But now it is too late to convince anyone to vote. We are all awaiting the results.
Well, I was in an extraordinarily long queue compared with previous years. I’m not in an affluent area, but I think the big difference is that more people voted.
I have family in rural areas where the voters tend to flock to voting stations they expect to be run more smoothly. For every long wait station in a rural area, you’d probably find a voting station about a kilometre away with virtually nobody there.
And Bush is definitely the lesser of two evils when compared with Gore.
“But, unless media reports are wrong, poor people often had a far more onerous task in order to ensure that they cast their ballot. Why?”
Perhaps because there are so many more poor people ?
This oke is unbelievable. Total lack of understanding of the implications of logistics in my experience typical of the academical fool.
Ozoneblue, I am perplexed by your gratuitous insult. If there are more poor people, there should be more polling stations in poor areas. Seems pretty logical and obvious to me. This is called logistical planning.
Pierre De Vos @ 7:08 am
Well – I can definitely assure you where I life there are more polling stations in poor areas. But it is not only about more stations, it is also about more people to man them, getting the right amount of ballot papers and boxes out there, infrastructure, etc . But for academics everything is always quite simple on paper.
The last thing the IEC want is to have large quantities of surplus ballot papers and boxes floating around.
I think Garg has got a point. Some polling stations are more popular than others. I’m roughly between two in my area. The one is always really quiet and the other is always really busy.
The thing is there tends to be quite a festival mood at the polling stations, so perhaps we’re seeing a social gathering effect which is causing the overload at some stations?
I think it might be an idea to take a close look at the s24a voter situation to see if those who are not voting at their “correct” station are still voting close by.
We need to consider on the shortage of ballot papers that they were allocated to each station according to, inter alia, the number of registered voters in that station. Of course there has been a lot of movement since we registered to vote so this must also be taken into account. I wish to re-iterate the point by Ozoneblue that we also should not allow a chance to have too many excess balot papers as that could open doors wide to abuse of the system.
Perhaps we need to be a lot more forgiving on the IEC. There is a section in the Electoral Act that facilitates for people to vote in a voting district or station other that the one they are registered in. I am one of the people who did not vote at my voting district or my municipality for that matter. At the voting station I went to, there we many people like me. Logically, logistics then become a problem because voting material becomes an issue at oversubscribed voting stations and suddenly the IEC finds itself following voters around.
So let not conflate our disappointment with the outcome to logistics issues that the IEC managed to their best ability.
India has an electronic voting system. Why can’t SA follow suit?
The poorer communities actually have far more people who are willing to man the IEC stations. My area is not an affluent area, but the IEC officials did state that they were understaffed.
However, I was wrong about the voting turnout. It seems that more people registered to vote, but less people turned up to vote this year.
You guys make good points. The IEC had a difficult task but let’s hope they learn from this experience.
I think my learned friend misunderstands the dangers of surplus ballot papers. in any event he jumps into conclusions based on untested media reports. The IEC is still investigationg these allegations of inadequate ballot papers. Its amazing how you always jump into conclusions. You must remember that not all people live in the surburbs like you. We are in Africa, not in the US, so stop measuring us by Western standards, our election processes are a million times better than the joke of election process in the US. I used to respect you, but now i see you for what you are, a liberal hell-bent on trying to return the status quo of so-called white supremacy. Dream on.
I am so glad Zuma and ANC will once again be victorious by LANDSLIDE majority, can those who were calling the victors at Polokwane “the Polokwane mob elected by a minority of a mere 4000 delegates” please stand up and apologise! We will again forgive them for eating their humble pie,you see people who opine in these blogs are a pathetic minorityand they forget it and when we try to humbly remind them not to speak for imaginary majorities they insult us!
Skhokho Radebe, what’s up dude? A bit of an overreaction on what was a rather mild post, no? Too much coffee this morning? My essential point, I thought, was a progressive one, calling for the equal treatment of all voters by IEC. Did you perhaps read something there that was not written?
Mdu
Did you check how many of those people who voted for the ANC were voting for Zuma? I haven’t seen a poll on that – but I stand corrected. We’re not having US-style presidential elections here, but party elections. The contention still stands that 4000 delegates not necessarily representing the views of ANC members/supporters as a whole voted at Polokwane.
Mdu,
Would Zuma have won if he were not running on an ANC ticket?
Jeeez guys. A little pent up agression coming out after the elections? It’s funny on how a post about long lines at voting stations in poor areas, in which the blogger took the poor peoples’ side, words like “pathetic minority”, “white supremacy” and “academical fool” can come out in the comments .
There’s nothing between the lines in this article, but it seems to me some people are just bored.
Sarah Palin,
I would also love to have an electronic voting system but we need to consider our country before we can adopt foreign systems into her (South Africa I meant). We need to consider these:
1. There are many people who would be deprived of an opportunity to vote if such a system were to be adopted by our country. This is due to the fact that there are a lot of people who are poor and who do not have access to computers or other electronic means which would be utilised to vote.
2. Given the huge gap of knowledge between people who have computer knowledge and those who do not, I believe that it would be easier to hack into the voting system and cause havoc or at least to abuse the system in favour of a single party. You must remember the example of the mails which resulted in the dismissal of Ronnie Kasrils which were fake.
3. This would put an extra financial burden on the IEC as it would have to educate people, especially the poor and illiterate, on how to use the new electronic system. This would take time and resources which the Constitution acknowledges to be scarce (I refer to s26(2) and s27(2) thereof).
All i’m saying is that we should not jump into conclusions based on untested media reports. You of all people should know better. Even that alleged treatment of voters is just an allegation. We should await the IEC investigations and any legal challeges emanating from these allegations before we talk as if we have all the information.
Sarah Palin on Mdu,
I tend to agree with you Sarah that not all the people who voted for the ANC were voting for Zuma. I believe that some people voted for the ANC just because they know that there is nothing they can do to change the elected ANC Presidential candidate. Some voted for the ANC out of fear and mistrust of the opposition parties. Some voted for it due to the (uninformed?) belief that ANC is the one which brought freedom and democracy into South Africa.
Skhokho Radebe,
I must admit that your attack on Prof. and your submission that we should wait for the IEC… before we talk is purely misplaced (I was tempted to say ‘foolish’ but decided against that for fear of stooping to your level of ad hominem attacks in order to be heard as against stating your opinion and substantiating it as Prof. has respectfully done). Prof. read the articles and formulated his opinion thereon. It is up to you to read the same and/or additional articles and come to your own conclusion which may not necessarily be identical to that of Prof. For you to attack him merely on an opinion that he holds is reckless disregard for the establishment of this blog, i.e. debates and not insults.
Please come with your own opinion as so far I have only seen your insults against Prof. I believe you have an opinion and it is up to you to prove me wrong or right.
Mdu // Apr 23, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Skhokho Radebe // Apr 23, 2009 at 12:24 pm
ozoneblue // Apr 23, 2009 at 7:50 am
We get the fact that an ANC victory makes you the supreme citizens of South African society. I get that. However, I suggest you save your aggression for your newest and most important legal battle, i.e. Nando’s.
And Mdu // Apr 23, 2009 at 12:29 pm,
‘…people who opine in these blogs are a pathetic minority…’
Are you and ozone minorities? I don’t think so. Maybe pathetic, but far to idiotic to be classified as part of the minority.
Every cloud has a silver lining, they say.
I am one of those who don’t like a system where one party dominates politics, because such a system, although a sign of some democracy – albeit crazy, is tantamount to a one-party dictatorship.
Bad as that may be, the silver lining in this dark cloud (No, I am not referring to Zuma’s dark cloud of corruption suspicion, if that is what you are thinking) is that the ANC will have no excuse this time. They will have to deliver instead of blaming Mbeki for all the bad things, they will have a chance to prove to us that without him, and those ‘thieves’ and baddies from COPE, it will now be smooth sailing.
Of course, skeptics like me, who don’t think much of a Zuma presidency can only be pleasantly disappointed if things go right; but if they don’t Zuma would have met or exceeded expectations.
But how could Msholozi go wrong, when nothing was promised? If he delivers nothing, it will be because he promised nothing. If he delivers anything, that will surely be chalked in as exceeding expectations.
To a majority of South Africans, Election Day and an ANC victory is an end in itself. They can’t wish for anything more. What a pity, because that is a sure sign that ANC membership has reached a cult-like status. What was that indoctrinating song by the way? “Mina ngizohlala ngi nje. Mina ngizohlala ngiyi-ANC.” (I will forever remain like this! I will forever remain an ANC loyalist) irrespective of the ANC’s delivery performance.
People deserve their leaders, somebody once said.
Sne – “Some voted for the ANC out of fear and mistrust of the opposition parties. Some voted for it due to the (uninformed?) belief that ANC is the one which brought freedom and democracy into South Africa.”
A local ANC Councilor (Mayor in fact) yesterday smugly and with great fanfare told a relative of mine working at a polling station that the ANC will get its two thirds in this area because they went around telling the uninformed people in the township without proper housing that everyone who votes ANC will get a house of his/her own; that they will know who votes what and that those who do not vote ANC will definitely not get houses; that they are running a project of erecting 5000 new low cost houses which will only be ready shortly after the new Local Government Elections and that they aim at running the same advert before the poll.
Waiting in the que I could hear a lady clad in an ANC Cloak telling some black voters in the line the same kind of thing – she did not know I understood and spoke the language. This kind of electioneering is cruel to say the least. But, the wheel is turning, albeit very slowly – young people begin to understand how democracy works and, in five years’ time we are bound to see a different picture – unless the ANC suddenly starts delivering – which is almost certainly not going to happen.
Mdu – I don’t mind being part of a ‘pathetic’ minority, but I will keep on voting for the opposition as long as the ANC rules – and it will definitely not be until the Second Coming. Incidentally, I’ve heard many people in the line saying that they will vote ANC even though they do not like or support Jacob Zuma, but that they are confident that the party will recall him soon enough just like it did Thabo Mbeki, if they are once again a strong majority. I wonder who could’ve dropped that line of gossip?
Mili:
A casual glance at any Bell curve would tell you that the idiotic are part of the minority. So, yes. The ‘pathetic minority’ do opine on these blogs.
Sne:
A hand-held unit like those already at the IEC voting station is sufficient to facilitate electronic voting. It could operate on very secure encrypted servers and register one vote per person – essentially exactly the same way we vote now, minus pen and paper.
Alternatively, a touch screen like found in most restaurants is enough. I think they’re cheaper than the hand-held units used at IEC stations to scan your ID? No training is required, as an interface could look exactly like the pen and paper ballot. You just click on the face or logo of your party and voting is done.
Also, an electronic vote would be more difficult to rig than a pen and paper vote because you do away with the human element involved in the counting. You’d need serious hacking sills to compromise such a system if it’s set up properly, but I venture it would be more secure than pen and paper. It would also be cheaper, you won’t have to spend a day or 2 counting and you won’t run out of ballots.
Go to hell. do not insult the political maturity and intellect of our people. South Africans including my illiterate mother know the requirements for qualifying for a house.
The rural vote for the two third is coming in the next few hours. I had just woken up after working all night long in the rural hinterland of Sekhukhune. We are guarateed of a two third majority. This votes are the honest preferences of the majority of south africans.
The youth vote is and ANC vote. We are still grooming more youth for the local government election in 2011. You have arounsed the patriotism of our rural masses.
They realise that the small elite isolated and elevated above them wants to snatch the political apparatus through sterile and negative campaigning and misinformation.
I really don’t care who has voted for which party, the ANC will indeed serve all south africans. We will steadfastly work to deliver on our commitments. This will be donw with the people.
Hey prof, of an illiterate lady shouted I want to vote for Mandela to the Presiding officer and the presiding officer ticks DA, how should the matter be resolved?
The DA – stop the two thirds- assisted to cause our people to go and vote. Thank you Zille. You can know take your western cape. We will indulge in self -introspection and reconnect with our peolpe in that area Watch us !
Generally this elections where vivacious. I could not find time to interact with you guys. we at times learn from some of the cruel inputs, some quite useless though
Something that hasn’t been mentioned here is the fact that the IEC introduced a new rule this year, which is that one may vote at any voting station in one’s province and not only the one at which one was originally registered. Many people – myself included – didn’t know this. (Because if I did, it would have saved me a long car trip.) This enabled some people – very probably lots of people – to go and vote several times over at different voting stations. I know this because some of them have been bragging about it. How was that possible, I hear you cry? Because that stupid mark they make on your thumbnail can be all too easily removed.
One the zip zip issues your details it records that you have voted. You fill a form as a person who had not registered in the particular voting district you voted. Clara one stupid doctor removed the ink and sought to vote again in an attempt to prove the weakness of the system and almost went to jail for fraud!
Tony my friend, we are voting for a party and Zuma is its leader and parliament will elect a president on the 9th May. The ANC wants to win a desicive majority to avert the possibility of a coliation of fools undermining the votes of society.
The two thirds majority is merely our high water mark for this purpose, not changing the Constitution. We have always had a two third majority!
Sne
India doesn’t expect its voters to have personal access to pcs. Check wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines#Limitations_of_electronic_voting.
The electronic system is actually at the voting station. Expensive initial outlay but once it is in place the IEC won’t need to print ballot papers again and accuracy is far higher, impossible to spoil your ballot paper and obv the results come out far faster.
sorry, that link should be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_voting_machines
Teach us sara. one day we would reach that level of sophictication !
Ishmael,
Thanks but no thanks for your answer. I already know that. I just want your honest answer to the question I posed.
My answer would be, No. Zuma would not have won if he was running on a DA, or Azapo, or PAC ticket. So ANC winning is not the same as Zuma winning.
So people should spare us the “people voted for Zuma” nonsense.
Democracy or democrazy???
Until electronic voting is introduced, and we the people are asked to vote on a much more frequent basis (not just for parties and people, but about issues such as housing, schools roads, policing etc etc) we are living a democracy dream. Giving a sneaky politician/party a mandate for 4 or 5 years is not democracy, as he/it will not enforce the will of the people, but its own aganda.
I would also like to see a system where people have to attend a democracy training course before they can cast a vote. This would prevent issues as highlighted by anonamouse
“A local ANC Councilor (Mayor in fact) yesterday smugly and with great fanfare told a relative of mine working at a polling station that the ANC will get its two thirds in this area because they went around telling the uninformed people in the township without proper housing that everyone who votes ANC will get a house of his/her own; that they will know who votes what and that those who do not vote ANC will definitely not get houses; that they are running a project of erecting 5000 new low cost houses which will only be ready shortly after the new Local Government Elections and that they aim at running the same advert before the poll.”
Hopefully it will also stop people from voting for a party that “brought us freedom” (that was almost 20 years ago), or I vote for party x because my parents voted for party x.
These are some of the reasons democracy has failed in Africa and in other places. If people voted logically and intellegently then no one would vote for Mugabe,
Oh well its nice to dream!!!
Ishmael
Why so defensive? I am not teaching anyone. I am asking a straightforward question: why has the IEC not adopted an electronic system of voting as has its equivalent in India – and no doubt many other places? India has a massive rural population, is a huge country and has many illiterate people. SA is similar, if much smaller. The technology is out there. You might think that SA is unsophisticated; I don’t. Either way the technology is out there to buy from Japan or wherever else.
I was hoping that someone might have an answer to my simple question. There is no need to read any hidden agenda into it.
Ishmael – On your Go to hell remark that one should not insult the political maturity and intellect of some illiterate voters in the rural areas: May I refer to something you said in that same post? = “Hey prof, of an illiterate lady shouted I want to vote for Mandela to the Presiding officer and the presiding officer ticks DA, how should the matter be resolved?”
Surely, a political mature person would know that Mandela can no longer be voted for?
Ishmael,
Why the anger, bru? Just chill. The ANC has won its 2/3 majority you say, so you should be celebrating. Go to the victory party and dance the night away instead of consuming yourself with bitterness.
Mdu, point to be made – you opine on this blog….
Well, I was disappointed. I couldn’t see Verwoerd anywhere on the ballot.
Ishmael:
“Go to hell. do not insult the political maturity and intellect of our people. South Africans including my illiterate mother know the requirements for qualifying for a house.”
I don’t know about your mother, or even all that much about voters in SA, but it is pretty well established that the voters in countries such as the USA tend to be pretty ill-informed about politicians and issues–in fact, I think that it would be quite accurate to call most of them politically immature. So maybe SA is a special case, and there are no politically immature voters there…but I doubt it
Ishmael – Note that 61% of roughly 20,000 voters (almost half a seat in the national assembly) on News 24′s website collumn on the 2009 elections have voted that the elections were not ‘free and fair’; 28% voted that they were; while 12% indicated that they were unsure. Public opinion of the chattering classes?
http://www.news24.com/News24/Elections/Home
Sara you must be the bitter one. I was celebrating on your rough neck. I am so elated I must tell you. good bye!
I just wanted to say hi.
I think Sne you misunderstand my comments above-mentioned. All i’m saying is that we should not come to uniformed conclusions. Was the Prof at the places alleged to have had shortages of ballot papers? The answer is no. Then why does he write as if what he read is the truth? Why cant you and Prof respect democratically elected institutions( such as the IEC)? why dont you two want to wait for its findings on the matter. I’m dissappointed at your lack of understanding of our Constitutional jurisprudence, not to mentions Prof’s. I made my comment clear, that we should not draw adverse inferences and negative critique on the issue before we have had the results of the investigations by the IEC as it promised. Now i dont know what seems to be insulting about my previous comment, maybe you are overly sensitive, which is typical of liberals who dont seek to understand the issues before commenting. Or maybe you have never heard of our Constitutional jurisprudence. Whatever it is, i dont care. But i already have the answer from the way you have responded. Your knowledge of Constitutional Law and Constitutional jurisprudence is lagging behind!
Skhokho, making a comment on the way the election was organised does not in any way challenge the legitimacy of the IEC or the results. The ANC has made the same point previously (see http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/anctoday/2001/at02.htm#art2) and in this election (see http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn20090423063434678C170663).
It is sad that you cannot see that making generalisations about “you people” (who are these “you people” you are referring to?) is deeply insulting and shows a shocking prejudice. One should not make generalisations, period.
I don’t think that the organisation of the elections are at fault here. More ballot papers would’ve counted against the ANC and not for them. Regardless, the outcomes of the election more or less reflect the results of two separate polls which were done before the elections, so there aren’t any big surprises.
Maybe it’s just my ward, but whenever I go to vote I’m treated very well and there aren’t any glitches.