Constitutional Hill

Why the taalbulle will destroy Afrikaans

I am a bit nervous to raise the topic. People get very, very cross when one says the “wrong” thing about it. A bit like Gareth Van Onselen when one criticises Helen Zille. (Remember Gareth, that self-righteous guy from the DA who now writes a self-righteous column in Business Day chock full of his own pedestrian prejudices? Sadly, I have not had a call from him for ages. He must be too busy crafting his 150 word gems for the newspaper to engage in friendly little chats in which he tries to convince me that white is black and black is white and that I am lying by insisting on the opposite.)

In any case, they phone you and (without knowing you from a bar of soap) start insulting you and tell you what a useless excuse for a human being you are. They might even pour a cup of tea over your head or assault you — but only if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, well, you guessed it, they will force you to watch recordings of Steve Hofmeyer performing at Huisgenoot Skouspel, or some such event. They complain bitterly about how they have been persecuted since 1994 (usually calling from next to the swimming pool at their house or from a brand new top of the range car masquerading as a truck). They call you a self-hating Afrikaner and a communist (or, worse, an ANC lackey) and a useful idiot (not knowing that they are quoting Joseph Stalin).

And all this because you might have suggested that the Afrikaans taalstryders making a living out of whipping up anxiety and fear about the demise of the Afrikaans language are at best opportunistic exploiters making a fast buck out of the fear and misery of others and at worst just pining for the good old days of apartheid when they were in power and could stuff up the country all by themselves.

But here goes. On Sunday, the main headline in Rapport (the Afrikaans version of the Sunday Times - only far more, you know, white, and with more headlines about Rugby and about NG Kerk infighting about the existence of the devil and whether dominees should be allowed to exorcise said devil) screamed: “GEE TERUG ONS TAAL!” (Give us back our language!) It told the story of some “brave” Afrikaners who are taking on the University of Stellenbosch, allegedly because that University is not ensuring that lectures are predominantly or exclusively conducted in Afrikaans (with sign language interpreters at hand to accommodate black students).

Some lecturers want to attract the best students of all races to study at Stellenbosch (something that is not happening at the moment) and want to appoint the best lecturers to teach at the institution (as it recently did when it appointed the brilliant Prof Achille Mbembe in the Sociology Department), but this would not be possible if everyone was required to speak and lecture most of their courses in Afrikaans. They are called the verraaiers or hensoppers or bootlickers of the new elite (in private they are said to lick other parts of the anatomy of the new elite too).

Others wish to ensure that the University remains dominantly and proudly Afrikaans, which would relegate it to the status of a second or third tier parochial institution for the children of whites (including, ironically, many English speaking whites whose children attend Stellenbosch University because it remains overwhelmingly white) and a few coloured students from the platteland.  They claim the University does not need to attract black students (and it is sometimes implied that attracting black students would lower standards) because the Constitution protects language rights.

Afrikaners, they argue, have a right to their own Volkstaat-like University in pretty Stellenbosch where their children could study (and drink lots of red wine), free from the evils of affirmative action that would open up the university to black students and staff. In the eyes of this group, only Afrikaners (they are still debating whether Afrikaans speaking coloureds are Afrikaners or not) should continue to benefit from affirmative action — just as they have benefited from affirmative action for many decades after the rise of the National Party. Standards would be maintained by forging links with some of the better Universities in the Netherlands and Belgium, and embarking on joint projects about multilingualism and how to run a country without a government.

Well, at first it might appear as if this second group have a point. After all, section 6(1) of the South African Constitution states that there are eleven official languages in South Africa, namely Sepedi, Sesotho, Setswana, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Afrikaans, English, isiNdebele, isiXhosa and isiZulu. However, because the ANC negotiators were much better at their job than the old National Party negotiators, this section says much less than the Volkstaters would like to think.

Section 6(2) recognises the “historically diminished use and status of the indigenous languages of our people”, and places a duty on the state to take practical and positive measures to elevate the status and advance the use of these languages (somthing the state has not done at all over the past 18 years). Because Afrikaans has not been historically diminished (it was relentlessly promoted during the apartheid years and is therefore still one the most understood and spoken languages in South Africa – along with English and isiZulu – and hence does not fall within the ambit of this provision.

Moreover section 6(3) states that the national government and provincial governments may use any particular official languages for the purposes of government, taking into account usage, practicality, expense, regional circumstances and the balance of the needs and preferences of the population as a whole or in the province concerned; but the national government and each provincial government must use at least two official languages. All official languages must enjoy “parity of esteem and must be treated equitably”.

This does not mean that languages should be treated equally — the term “parity of esteem”, borrowed from the Irish Constitution with a little help from Kader Asmal, means far less than equal treatment. It means that they must be treated fairly, given the economic, political and social context. Given the systematic promotion of Afrikaans during apartheid, given the dominance of English as a world language (for the time being at least) and given the neglect of other indigenous languages over the years, these sections might well mean that other indigenous languages had to be promoted vis-a-vis Afrikaans.

If Parliament adopts the National Language Bill now before Parliament and the national government finally formulates a national language policy regarding the use of official languages for government purposes (as required by section 4 of that Bill), the taalstryders  might get a shock. Other indigenous languages might well — very legitimately — be preferred above Afrikaans in this language policy, the latter being a language who had been very much affirmed and promoted for 50 years during the apartheid rule.

Referring to Stellenbosch particularly, taalbulle argues that the right to receive education in the official language or languages of one’s choice in public educational institutions is guaranteed in section 29 of the Constitution. They fail to note that section 29(2) also states that this will only happen “where that education is reasonably practicable”.

In order to ensure the effective access to, and implementation of, this right, the state must consider all reasonable educational alternatives, including single medium institutions, taking into account: equity; practicability; and the need to redress the results of past racially discriminatory laws and practices.

Section 30 underscores this point by stating that while everyone has the right to use the language and to participate in the cultural life of their choice, these rights may not be exercised in a manner inconsistent with any provision of the Bill of Rights – including the provisions of the non-discrimination clause. Using a language policy that would exclude many black South Africans from accessing the excellent education at Stellenbosch is therefore not permitted by the Constitution as it infirnges on section 9(3) of the Constitution, read with section 30.

Where a University teaches some courses exclusively in Afrikaans, the effect of this policy would be to exclude many black South Africans from studying there and from teaching at this institution. Ironically, as long as Stellenbosch remains a University where quality education is provided and quality research is conducted (as it presently still is), the effective exclusion of black South Africans form the University through any language policy would contravene the non-discrimination clause in the Constitution. This is because the policy deprives many black South Africans from accessing a very high standard of education they might not receive at many other Universities and this disadvantages black students and staff.

This fight is only going to end one way and that is with the so called verraaiers winning the argument and the fight. If the taalbulle wanted to have a shot at retaining their white privileges at Stellenbosch they should have ensured many years ago that slightly less dim-witted people negotiated on their behalf at the Constitutional Assembly.

This is not to say that ons taal will disappear. On my iPod I have music from the early days of the Afrikaans music revival (Bernoldus Niemand, Koos Kombius, Johannes Kerkorrel), from avant-garde bands like Buckfever Underground and Die Antwoord, from Jan Blohm and Karen Zoid. On my bookshelf I look at books by Marlene van Niekerk, Ingrid Winterbach, Antjie Krog, Johann de Lange, Loftus Marais and Deon Meyer. When I want to express my anger in a colourful way, I choose one of the wonderfully expressive Afrikaans phrases available to me (but is unfortunately not polite enough to repeat here).

Ag, if only the taalbulle would stop fighting for the taal things might still turn out well for Afrikaans. Because with friends like them, who needs enemies?

As things stand, they are giving Afrikaans a bad name with their selfish and jingoistic crusade. By painting themselves as victims (“met ‘n wit brood onder elke arm vasgeklem” – “with a white bread clutched under each arm” – as my mother would have said), they are creating the impression that Afrikaans is being used as a proxy to try and retain the dominant white status of Stellenbosch University. Down that road lies permanent ruin for our taal.

If you want to save ons taal, why not write a poem, a short story or even an email in beautiful Afrikaans? Teach your children to use the language well. Engage in real debates – in Afrikaans, English or another indigenous language – about the real issues that face our nation: poverty, crime, corruption, racism, discrimination, homophobia, homelessness, hunger. Stop protecting the ill-gotten privileges of the apartheid years and stop acting in ways that will give the appearance of wanting to protect these privileges. Become an ambassador for the language through words and deeds – including words and deeds that demonstrate an understanding of the horrors of our past and its effect on the lingering injustices in our country. But please, spare me the moans and groans about the need to “save” the language at Stellenbosch University.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    I do think each language group should have a university to represent it. Didn’t Nelson Mandela intend for SU to be exactly that for Afrikaners? It would be a shame to lose, or deprive people of the full richness of, yet another language.

    Culture is well and good, but ask the Khoi San what good that’s done them.

    What South Africa needs to focus on is the development of African languages, in order for these to be able to facilitate the exchange of scientific, mathematical and other more technical information. (Look, Zuma and I agree on something!)

    What happened to that notion? Wasn’t it just 6 months ago that this was called for? Where’s the progress?

  • Brett Nortje

    Yes, mea culpa, mea culpa, I often refer to Pierre as a ‘useful idiot’.

    And I thought the phrase originated from Lenin.

  • Henri

    One should ask these taalomies and -tannies just one thing:

    Suppose there is this University of Umtata, and the students there study and write exams exclusively in Xhosa. And their LLD [and other] thesisses are written exclusively in Xhosa.
    Would those students be educated to fulfill a useful role in their country [with their resultant lack of language proficiency]?
    And who would read those thesisses?. What would the use of those thesisses be? What contribution to the law would it be? [Can a LLD "legitimately", from a scientific view, be written in Xhosa?]

    Same with Afrikaans.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    With respect, Brett, I see you not so much as a “useful” idiot than as a “useless” idiot.

    Anyway, both you and Pierre are wrong about the source of the phrase. In fact, it was first used by Peter de Villiers.

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    Tut, tut, Dworky!

    While I know – as with your friend Pierre – English is not your first language – I must nevertheless point out that both “as“ and ”than” are conjunctions.

    I quote: “as a “useful” idiot than as a”.

    So, I am afraid, you have been/are being a bit of an az.

  • Paul Kearney

    What a silly little blog from a supposedly leading academic. Well “Prof”, what language should be used at Stellenbosch (and anywhere else for that matter)?

    C’mon, then tell us then tell us how someone would not be disadvantaged when you’ve made your choice.

    The idiocy of Afrikaans is that it is still the second language of choice in many, many schools despite so many people hating it. Seems crazy and its got nothing to do with Afrikaners promoting it. The respective education departments seemingly can’t, don’t want to or haven’t got round to, offering much else. Crazy.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Paul

    “what language should be used at Stellenbosch (and anywhere else for that matter)”

    With respect, Paul, this is a silly question. The obvious answer is that parallel courses in all 11 official languages should be used at Stell. This may sound utterly impractical and expensive — but remember, you cannot put a price on rights. I demand that US accordingly be renamed the “University of Babel,” and that we acknowledge that English, the global tongue, should be recognised as the dominant of instruction at all other institutions of higher education!

  • Dirk de Vos

    This whole issue is typical South African navel gazing stuff. We treat all our problems, racial, cultural, economic, language and all the others as if we are the only country in the world with these problems. The fact is that all sorts of minority languages in many places of the world are dying out at an alarming rate. Even in Europe, the primary languages of smaller countries (like the Netherlands) do not get taken further than graduate studies. Post graduate studies are increasingly being conducted in English and done so at an increasing rate.

    Not sure I agree with the professor’s view on the taalstryders, apparently the same problem that he has with the Afriforum “ouens”. It would seem that on the basis of who they are (die twee wit broodtjies), what they think about the world and their strategies/tactics, they are “beyond the pale” or somehow not legitimate. While it may be good, tactically, for the taalstryders to take up the cause of all minority languages, in reality, doing so might very well come across as being patronising. More so because the African elite appears to be abandoning the African languages just when these languages need to be futher developed to have the vocabulary to be used at a university level. Same goes for Afriforum. You may not like what they are or what they do but they have through their actions, clarified our constitution and these clarifications of general principle have consequences well beyond the narrow or proximate reason for their actions including litigation. Progressive formations of civil society ought to think more carefully about whether they alone can be the only permitted standard bearers for the rights of our citizens.

  • Tatera

    Prof, glad to see you read you read Deon Meyer!!!

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    There is always an argument why English should be allowed to take everything. It is a habit that started in colonial times, and still continues today, for example the recent colonisation of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.

    IN SA, we are also used to seeing English taking what is not rightfully theirs. For example the recent anglification of the Free State university of Technology – in a province where less than 3% of the population are English speaking.
    This is a pattern that can be seen in all of South Africa – English taking in a neocolonialist way, while posing to as the progressive language. In the Free State, there are more Tswana speakers (about 7%) than English (about 3%). Yet Tswana is not one of the 3 official languages of the Free State, and when the 3 official languages were chosen, there were no objections from our very progressive English compatriots about this unjust state of affairs.

    It is easy to feel that the ruling elite, of which the prof, and other participants of this blog are members, support a Rhodesian ideal of an South-Africa united under English as the only language that matters, and where, whenever we ask about the language rights of other groups in terms of official and educational use, we have to listen to yet another wank about Deon Meyer and Afrikaans music.

    And the impact of the English-led elite in SA is not limited to language policy, as they seem to have a buy British policy as well. We have seen billions paid out to BAE systems in an arms transaction we did not need (the corruption in that was only a minor aspect).
    The Gautrain trains were also made in Britain, even though there are almost certainly Chinese or French companies that could do it cheaper.

    Nelson Mandela is not even ashamed to be associated with Cecil John Rhodes (the Mandela Rhodes Foundation).

    For these reasons, it is sometimes hard to think about South Africa as a country not a colony, and of the ruling elite as Rhodesian style administrators acting on behalf of Anglo- capital.

    The day South Africa becomes serious about de-colonisation, the English will have to make the biggest sacrifices, and give back what they have no right to own.

  • Gwebecimele

    Give that man “Brandy & Coke” he will probably wake up feeling better.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Gwede, if you mean me, I only drink English ale!

  • Michael Osborne

    @ alleman

    Alleman is right. The net effect of changing the language policy in such a manner as to downgrade Afrikaans is not to advance any “native” language. It is to reinforce the overwhelming dominance of English at every level. (See Neville Alexander on the need to resist English hegemony.)

  • Trevorio

    English has a central role to play as a medium of instruction. Besides, it has been accepted across the board and amongst most Africans as a lingua franca, something which has nothing to do with neo-colonialism or a Rhodesian style of doing things. Trying to deny the centrality of English in this capacity will essentially strip people like Blade Nzimande of all credibility.

  • RickySA

    Since English is also used (more and more) as the lingua franca of Europe (which, to my knowledge, was never colonised by the English), I do find it somewhat strange to see the use of English all over (much of) Africa (and much of Asia) being described as part of some neo-colonialist ploy. The fact remains that it is useful to use a language that most people understand – and English is the most widely understood second language, also in South Africa (or so I have been told). Also, if we in South Africa wanted to stop using English in this way, what is the alternative? Can you really expect everyone to agree on e.g. Zulu (being the most widely spoken of the indigenous languages)? And what about the costs of such a change, its effect on business and tourism etc?

  • anton kleinschmidt

    Not sure of the relevance of the Zille reference in this context

    Are you ever going to forgive Van Onselen for writing this……

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=102076&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

  • ‘n Matie.

    I couldn’t agree more with this article and Prof. De Vos’ arguments. As a black, female, Law student currently at Stellenbosch, I am annoyed and irritated at the unfounded statements that Afrikaans is not alive and well at our university. And I’m not complaining. Being in a classroom where the vast majority of lecturers go above and beyond the call of duty to realize a language policy that sees them speaking half of one and half of the other during all of our lectures, I know for a fact that this will be to my advantage when I practice as an attorney one day, especially in the Western Cape. Did I mention that I can speak Afrikaans, English and isiXhosa fluently? I shouldn’t have to really. If the taalbulle and the narrow-minded Afrikaans and English students who are fighting over the language policy would climb out of the sandbox and take a look at the bigger picture, they would realize that having a Stellenbosch University that is either/or wouldn’t do anyone, any good. Tallbulle, leer nog ‘n ander taal; praat jou eie taal met passie en trots want jy leef in land waar elke liewe taal is waardevol en kosbaar; maar woord groot, asseblief tog.

  • Brett Nortje

    Ek gaan nie met sulke leuns saamlewe nie. Skaam julle julle nie?

    Hier is die waarheid agter die verhaal:

    http://afrikaans.news24.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Nog-topmatrieks-weggewys-oor-swak-punte-20111108

    Nóg topmatrieks weggewys oor ‘swak punte’
    Kaapstad – AfriForum Jeug het Dinsdag die minister van hoër
    onderwys, dr. Blade Nzimande, gevra om dringend in te gryp oor
    skynbare ongeregtighede by die Universiteit van Pretoria (UP).

    Die jeuggroep het dié besluit geneem nadat nóg sewe topmatrieks –
    wat gesamentlik met sowat 50 onderskeidings tussen hulle spog –
    na vore getree het ná hulle by die universiteit weggewys is.

    Hulle vertel hulle is by dié universiteit se Fakulteit van
    Veeartsenykunde weggewys vir studie aanstaande jaar weens hulle
    “swak akademiese prestasie”.

    AfriForum Jeug het verlede week onthul hoe ‘n uitblinker met sewe
    onderskeidings, Kiara Haylock, weens dieselfde rede deur die
    universiteit weggewys is. Haylock het onder meer 92% vir Wiskunde
    en 86% vir Wetenskap gehad.

    “AfriForum Jeug ontvang geweldig baie klagtes oor die
    onregverdigheid wat by die UP geskied omdat al die applikante nie
    aan dieselfde resies deelneem nie.

    “Topstudente is besig om die land te verlaat omdat hulle nie die
    geleentheid gegun word om hulle roeping hier uit te leef nie.
    Studente wat eers in 1993 gebore is, word gevra om eenkant toe te
    staan, ongeag die bydrae wat hulle tot die land se
    vaardigheidskrisis wil maak,” het Oberholzer gesê.

    Rozelle Zamudio is nog ‘n student wat weggewys is nadat sy onder
    die indruk verkeer het dat sy reeds by UP aanvaar is. Sy het ‘n
    gemiddeld van 91% vir Wiskunde en 90% vir Wetenskap behaal.

    Ook Marilie du Plessis is weggewys. Sy het agt onderskeidings
    verwerf en ‘n gemiddeld van byna 90% in matriek behaal.

    “Leerlinge besluit nou sélf om die stelsel aan te vat. UP blameer
    die demografiese teikens wat die departement van hoër onderwys
    stel, terwyl die minister die bal in die universiteit se hande
    teruggooi. Intussen word die vaardigheidskrisis geïgnoreer,” het
    Oberholzer gesê.

    Hy het die minister versoek om die tekort aan veeartse in
    Suid-Afrika te verlig deur toppresteerders die geleentheid te gun
    om nie op grond van ras met mekaar mee te ding nie.

    AfriForum Jeug het verlede week, ingevolge die Wet op Toegang tot
    Inligting, die UP versoek om die akademiese prestasies van
    suksesvolle applikante beskikbaar te stel om sodoende te bepaal
    of dié applikante wél beter presteer het as die leerlinge wat
    weggewys is.

    – Nuus24

  • Henri

    Ja Brett, that is all oh so fair and constitutional in terms of our “colour-blind constitution”.

    What a k@ck Constitution.

    It is absolutely teaching everybody “non-racialism” in South Africa.

  • sirjay jonson

    As an English speaker, I nevertheless sympathize with the need for the Afrikaner to retain their quality university culture where they feel at home for themselves and their children.

    In my decade living in South Africa, and having a life partner who is an Afrikaans (coloured) librarian, I am impressed with how rich the culture of Afrikaans is, especially the written word, and the quality of graduates from white Afrikaans run educational institutions.

    Why on Earth shouldn’t they have their own university. It boggles my mind that this is even questioned. Regardless of the inequities so dwelt on by so many and so continuously about Afrikaners, they are an amazing culture in my view… and they do need protection, support and encouragement to continue feeling South Africa is also their home. Its mean spirited to approach it otherwise. How long must they be punished.

    My gut feeling is that the entire issue is racist, and most certainly not Afrikaans on non white, racism. And i think Prof that you and others who feel the University should be diluted, do so out of this misguided guilt, and anger. The Afrikaner has been defeated, period. S/he lives under the yolk of a corrupt insensitive government with a lot of gut wrenching insecurity. Apart from Apartheid (which many others in other lands have perpetuated) they have given a great deal to Africa, and their folk overseas are generally appreciated for more than their skills. Get over the past and leave them be. And for certain leave them their university. Politically, and as a society, its petty to deny them this.

  • Kokkie

    Graeme Codrington (I think) once wrote of how he had to instruct his gardener on a job that had to be done. While he was haltingly struggling in his second language to find the right words to say, his gardener was listening and responding in his fourth! We “Afrikaners” definitely have a thing or two to learn from our black brothers and sisters. I work with black colleagues who can speak my Afrikaans, English and two or three other languages. I teach children who can speak at least one language more than I, including my own. Getting exposure to more than one language can only do us Afrikaners good, and I don’t necessarily mean English. If you think that makes me a verraaier – I pity those who are afraid of learning anything new.

  • Brett Nortje

    Nice attempted misdirection! Is that the debate?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 8, 2011 at 19:14 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “Nice attempted misdirection!”

    Well spotted!

    Also well done on spotting Dworky’s stumbling over the conjunctions.

    Dworky was entirely wrong by suggesting that you’re a “useful” idiot than as a “useless” idiot.

    “Useful/useless” are definitely not words which he ought to have used.

  • izeze

    Maggs –

    There you are praising “Goofy” (whoever he may be) for spotting all manner of things.

    But neither he nor you managed to spot Henri’s “thesisses”.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    izeze
    November 8, 2011 at 20:35 pm

    Hey Izeze,

    “whoever he may be” – Goofy is my BFF!

    He’s got this cute trick – he can pick a number from one to three, blindfolded.

    p.s. Eish you’re being finicky – thesisses, thasisses, othesisses is just way of saying ‘this, that or the other’ in long hand.

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
    November 8, 2011 at 20:24 pm

    Tut tut tut, Maggs!

    Pronoun ‘which’ pronoun ‘he’?

    “definitely not words which he ought to have used”.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Pierre, I have written a critical response to this post of yours elsewhere. Om dit te lees, klik op: http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand/hoekom-versterk-pierre-de-vos-die-rasse-en-klasse-eksklusiwiteit-waarteen-hy-waarsku

  • Brett Nortje

    Maggs, IMHO Afriforum is the best thing to happen to Afrikaners since 8 May 1996.

    WDYS?

  • Robert Brand
  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2011 at 9:22 am

    Dworky,

    Is that you disguised as Brett?

    ‘HO’, Brett? Since when?

    Anyway, better than Afriforum for the Afrikaners since 8 May 1996 is the ANCYL without whom Afriforum would have been not more than the sound of flatulence in an echo chamber.

    Somebody ought to whisper to those trying to establish physical boundaries around a small, tight-knit group that in the long run it’s going to be bad for them – a limited gene pool, constrained intellectual space, navel gazing. All this is bad, not good, for Afrikaners. Hmmm – maybe don’t say anything just yet :evil:

  • Henri

    OK.
    I think I get it………….

    The Chief Justice and the President of the Supreme Court of Appeal are accused as part of some plot by the JSC to conspire to commit some sort of corruption?:
    http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=20111109084612607

    But then, with the JSC anything is possible……

    Very South African anyway.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Gerrit Brand makes statements that are factually incorrect. First, Stellenbosch University has the lowest percentage of black students of any University in South Africa. What makes US different from other Universities is that it has failed to adequately to accommodate students who do not wish to or cannot study in Afrikaans. Its language policy discriminates against black South Africans. Whether that is the intention or not is irrelevant. Its policy has that effect and needs to change to comply with the Constitution. Second, most black students (coloured and African) do not wish to be taught in Afrikaans. English is an aspirational language and the vast majority of coloured parents who have aspirations for their children wish for them to study in English. Third, its irrelevant whether US is exclusive Afrikaans or not. It remains dominantly Afrikaans and as long as it does it will not attract more black students who feel that they are not welcome and will not thrive there. Fourth, it completely negates the political context in which the debate occurs. This context is one in which Afrikaners have lost political power and some of them are traumatised by this. Afrikaans is often used as a proxy to try and deal with these traumas of not being in charge of the country anymore.

    A truly multilingual University might work. But that is not what the taalbulle want. They want an Afrikaans University that accommodates others under strict conditions. This has the effect of excluding black students (and lecturers) and is untenable in a country like ours where access to national institutions (mostly paid for by the state) are a good that any qualifying students should be entitled to. No matter how one slices this argument, the effect of the AFrikaans policy at Stellenbosch remains discriminatory. Calling me racists for pointing this out is like blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

  • ozoneblue

    “they are still debating whether Afrikaans speaking coloureds are Afrikaners or not”

    This is of course the crux of the matter that the Afrikaner propagandists sidestep and continue to ignore . Yet this is really what is going to determine if Afrikaans manages to get rid of the Apartheid stigma and will define the feature of the language. Although I generally support Solidarity/Afriforum, if they do not succeed to grow beyond their narrow Apartheid defined ethnic base, they will also fail to provide a vision and a long term strategy for the cultural rights of the Afrikaner.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Pierre writes: “Gerrit Brand makes statements that are factually incorrect. First, Stellenbosch University has the lowest percentage of black students of any University in South Africa. What makes US different from other Universities is that it has failed to adequately to accommodate students who do not wish to or cannot study in Afrikaans.”

    Pierre, jy sit die pot mis. I did not and do not deny the unrepresentative nature of SU. What I do deny is that language is the key to this. The more English the university has become, the more priviledged English speaking white students it has attracted, while it has made no impact on drawing more black students to the university. Moreover, white Afrikaans speakers tend to be quite comfortable with English, poor coloured students less so. An English only university is logically much more racially exclusive than a bilingual university is, and none of your “taalbulle” are pleading for an exclusively Afrikaans university.

    Your statement that most black students (including so-called coloured students) prefer English is incorrect. It is an assumption without basis. Surveys at Stellenbosch have proved this. It is no accident that many of the most vocal activists for Afrikaans at Stellenbosch are “coloured” and argue their case precisely on with reference to the exclusion of coloureds, who are most excluded already. The claim that most coloured parents want to have their children taught in English is simply wrong. Again, you are looking at the issue from a middle class city perspective and ignoring the facts on the ground, which have been researched.

    Again you claim that Afrikaans will exclude black students. This claim has been proven wrong already. The most significant growth in black students has taken place at faculties where Afrikaans has a strong position whereas those fakulties where English is more dominant have stayed white. Don’t take your starting point in assumptions.

    You also write: “it completely negates the political context in which the debate occurs. This context is one in which Afrikaners have lost political power and some of them are traumatised by this. Afrikaans is often used as a proxy to try and deal with these traumas of not being in charge of the country anymore.” Every language in SA has been used oppresively, but English most of all. Moreover, your argument is again racist, thinking of Afrikaans as a white language while the majority of its speakers are black.

    Your final paragraph starts from claims about what the language activists want which make quite clear that you are completely uniformed about the actual contents of the debate. “A multilingual university might work,” you say – a little bit like “human rights and democracy might work”. It MUST work. SU is already a fully bilingual university, some other universities in the Westerm Cape excusively monolingually English. Shame on them.

  • ozoneblue

    @PdV

    “First, Stellenbosch University has the lowest percentage of black students of any University in South Africa.”

    I am sure PdV is not aware of or counting the North-West University or previously know as the PUK.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    ozoneblue, your argument is irrelevant. The majority of Afrikaans speakers don’t regard themselves as Afrikaners and are not white, yet some of the leading figures in the struggle form Afrikaans beloing to that majority. It is not an Afrikaner issue but an issue of linguistic human rights, of equality and justice.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    ozoneblue, and interestingly, where Potch has made inroads it has been with coloured students, some from parts of the country where they are excluded by English, precisely because of still using Afrikaans. Moreover they are a world leader in using interpretation in the classroom to make it multilingually inclusive. This today is highly respected internationally. And keep in mind, those universities that are more racially representative are not necessarily more inclusive of the poor and marginalised. That is the attractiveness of sticking to English: you attract more blacks but mainly the more priviledged ones who are also cheeper and more easily accommodated educationally – you don’t need to help those who need the help most.

  • ozoneblue

    @ Gerrit Brand

    Interesting enough. I have had the exact same argument with many a “taal stryder”. They always defend the lack of racial representation in the socalled Afrikaans Universities as a function of culture and language and not racism. Then at the same time they try to make it appear as if this is not an Afrikaner issue – but a language issue. The fact is that only about 50% of Afrikaans speakers are white, why does the Afrikaans universities not even come close to those demographics? You see more or less the same thing in our Afrikaans schools, churches and in our Afrikaans cultural festivals.

  • ozoneblue

    @ PdV

    “Its language policy discriminates against black South Africans.”

    That is absolute nonsense. So what about the 2 million or so “Coloured” people with Afrikaans as a home language. Are they not black enough?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Gerrit Brand

    With respect, you are obscuring the debate by dredging up the “fact” that most Afrikaans speakers in the WC are not white. (It would also be confusing if you were to point out that “Coloureds” are less well represented in higher education than any other group.) As for the fact that the quintessentially colonial language, English, already dominates almost every other university, the less said about that the better. It is much simpler for PdV and everyone else if we all just stick to the narrative in which Afrikaans is the “white” language, used solely as a pretext to keep blacks out!

    Thanks.

  • Khotshi

    I am 29 year old umXhosa man and I can speak about seven languages. I grew up in the Eastern Cape (Bhisho to be exact), so naturally I learnt IsiXhosa at home, and Engilsh and Afrikaans at school.

    When I came to study at Pretoria Technikon in the year 2000 I got a cultural shock – I couldn’t understand any SeTswana or SePedi and so I was struggling to communicate with the locals (Notwithstanding the fact that Bhisho is such a small town compared to a city like Pretoria). I was struggling to get directions, to talk to taxi drivers, to pick up girls, etc. I had to learn SePedi, SeTswana and SeSotho and I’m glad I did.

    Now, I work in Design Office of about 20 people and I’m the only black person, maar dit is bevrydend om te verstaan ​​wat hulle kan se in hulle Afrikaans of Engels.

    I just wish that more white people could start embracing our languages as well – not as matter on necessity but more of courtesy

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    ozoneblue, your logic is so confused, conviluted and self-contradictory that I honestly don’t know how to respond to it. I’m not joking.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Stellenbosch University’s student racial profile is as follows:

    White 67.6% 17,753
    Coloured 15.2% 4,000
    Black African 14.4% 3,800
    Indian 1.9% 500
    Total 100% 26,243

    And North West:
    White 14950
    Coloured 864
    Indian 364
    African 12713

    “Your statement that most black students (including so-called coloured students) prefer English is incorrect. It is an assumption without basis. Surveys at Stellenbosch have proved this.”

    Holding up a survey at Stellenbosch University as proof that black South Africans prefer Afrikaans is absurd. Its like conducting a survey at an ANC birthday celebration about support for the ANC – the self-selection inherent in such a survey makes it meaningless. UCT and UWC combined has far, far more coloured and African students than Maties. (More than 90% black at UWC; more than 50% black at UCT.)

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder, you write: ‘It would also be confusing if you were to point out that “Coloureds” are less well represented in higher education than any other group.’

    But I did point this out.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Khotshi, I can only say Amen. Especially on your very last point.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Pierre, I am well aware of the statistics you mention and have never denied it. What I deny is that those numbers are not due to too much Afrikaans, and I have explained why I say so. I also argue that trying to use English to rectify the problem has not helped, is not helping and will never helped, and I have given reasons why.

    You also write: “Holding up a survey at Stellenbosch University as proof that black South Africans prefer Afrikaans is absurd.”

    And the proof for your claims about what blacks prefer? Your thumb I would suggest. Moreover, these claims are truly absurd, since it logically emplies that people who do not understand English prefer English. It reminds me of those whites who used to say that blacks actually like to be ruled by whites.

    Face it, Pierre, you have written on a topic you know very little of, and what you have written is from a very limited perspective. Any sociolinguist or even legal scholar who knows something about this topic will point this out to you. Firts go read your Neville Alexander (to start with), then think again. If I write about legal matters and make serious mistakes in the process, which are pointed out to me, the proper response would be: OK, I’m wrong.

    Komman, jy’t nog nie op een van my argumente geantwoord nie.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    An additional point and a clarification:

    Once more, about your statement that “Holding up a survey at Stellenbosch University as proof that black South Africans prefer Afrikaans is absurd,” you should keep in mind that this survey was also done among black students specifically, and even distinguished in this regard between “Africans” and “coloureds”. One of the most interesting findings was that “African” students are generally against the so-called T option (which the “taalbulle” are also against) and clearly indicated that they would prefer paralell medium (which the “taalbulle” also prefer). I gues now you will claim that black at SU are not “representative”? Well, who is. The priviledged elite at some other universities?

    About the fact the a small number of black South Africans are functionally proficient in English, go read the relevant stats. More than half are not, and they are the poorest and most marginalised. English is not the lingua france of SA but the lingua franca of the elite. Zulu, Xhosa and Afrikaans (the three most widely spoken languages in the country – English is number 8 on the list) are also lingua francas, i.e. understood and spoken by large numbers who do not have these languages as mother tongue. The only difference is that those who understand these languages come from all classes, unlike the functionally proficient in English, who are tipically economically better off and mixed together quite bit pailer.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Several readers of my DinkNet blog have replied to this discussion, so to be fully up to date, check it out. http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand/hoekom-versterk-pierre-de-vos-die-rasse-en-klasse-eksklusiwiteit-waarteen-hy-waarsku

  • Donovan
  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand
  • ozoneblue

    PdV

    I can understand why Black Consciousness activists don’t like to think of “Whites” as Africans but the following bit of Verwoerdian racism is just inexcusable – “far more coloured and African students than Maties.

    Pierre, with all due respect “Coloureds” are not only black, but they are also African, even when their home language happens to be Afrikaans.

  • ozoneblue

    @Gerrit Brand

    Yes – just stick your head in the sand. The truth is that it is not the ANC, or the Communists, or the British, or die mannetjie op die maan, but Afrikaner racism that is killing Afrikaans. The sooner you get that message through to your fellow one-eyed “taalstryders” the better for all of us.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Can you copy-and-paste for us from where you made that argument to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People?

  • Brett Nortje

    What is absurd is that there are Afrikaners who can tell you exactly how many Afrikaans-speakers there are at PUK and Stellenbosch but not how many Afrikaners have been murdered in Danville since 1994.

  • ozoneblue

    @Brett Nortje says:
    November 9, 2011 at 15:24 pm

    You demonstrate my point perfectly. I don’t agree with PdV/Jimmy Manyi/Julias Malema typical South African brand of politically correct Verwoerdian racism but on the other hand there are people like the Brett Nortjes and Steve Hoffmeyers who log into Internet forums making idiots of themselves and helps them to get away with it.

  • Brett Nortje

    What point exactly?

    Somebody says something you do not like, you are stumped for a rebuttal, you throw a childish tantrum and that illustrates a point?

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 9, 2011 at 15:41 pm

    Little bit rich coming from you after you just posted some paranoid OT stuff on how nobody cares how many Afrikaners are murdered in Danville. As if the type of middle class, DA voting Afrikaner that attends Stellenbosch snob school cares about the plight of poor Afrikaners or anybody who lives in Danville for that matter.

  • Thomas Blaser

    I think it is quite clear that Stellenbosch and its university is a white space. Black people are marginalized and in everyday discourse in Stellenbosch, black people, whether they are South African, foreign, or coloured, are and remain the ‘Other’. This is to a large extent due to Stellenbosch being an Afrikaans place – yet, it is also about the ‘right’ Afrikaans, that is, white and middle class. Coloured Afrikaans is hardly welcome by the taalstryders, and hence black Afrikaans speakers remain as marginalized as any other black people. So race and language go together. Only when English is maintained and established, will more black students come to Stellenbosch. English is and remains the language in which cultures meet, not Afrikaans. Maybe one day but that requires a smarter policy than defendingt the status quo. Black students have alternatives in the Cape to access top SA universities and hence I would think that they do not come to Stellenbosch because they know that this is a white space; anecdotal evidence of racialism and racism abound. So before the taalstryders claim to fight for language diversity, I suggest they open up Afrikaans to those who speak it differently and who are usually of a different epidermic hue. And they may want to suggest how they intend to overcome racial privilege and discrimination while remaining monolingual Afrikaans?

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Thomas Blaser, you are suggesting that black “taalstryders” are against blacks. I am not going to repeat all my original arguments against. Read them first. All you do here is to make statements, without any supporting arguments. The statements you make are false. What more can I say?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 9, 2011 at 15:24 pm

    Hey Goofy,

    “how many Afrikaners … .”

    Eish, that is a hard one!

    Pick a number – 1, 2 or 3?

    p.s. Do you think Khotshi is on woonga or just believes (like the ASA) in angels, the tooth-fairy and miracles?

    November 9, 2011 at 13:37 pm “… not as matter on necessity but more of courtesy”

  • ozoneblue

    Thomas Blaser says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:28 pm

    “– yet, it is also about the ‘right’ Afrikaans, that is, white and middle class. Coloured Afrikaans is hardly welcome by the taalstryders, and hence black Afrikaans speakers remain as marginalized as any other black people. So race and language go together.”

    Just visit the Aardklop “Afrikaans” arts festival if you have any doubts about that.

    As much as I love Afrikaans and see myself as an Afrikaner, unfortunately that is the inconvenient truth. It doesn’t help certain types of Afrikaners to keep on lying to themsleves about it either. They either open the language up to people of all races and make a concerted effort to act a little bit more inclusively, or they can sit back and blame everybody else while they are the ones suffocating Afrikaans.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    ozoneblue
    November 9, 2011 at 16:53 pm

    Hey OB,

    “open the language up to people of all races”

    Great plan.

    Any ideas on how that could be done?

  • ozoneblue

    Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:57 pm

    I’ll give you and idea of how things work in the NWU. You get the majority and dominant Afrikaans and by implication white students and then you get the “Africans” who it is automatically assumed are English. Most of the “Africans” are recruited through aggressive AA policy because the university must demonstrate that it is playing ball in the new South Africa. So I believe the AA recruitment drive must focus on Black Afrikaans speaking students and stop assuming that Black people are automatically English. The same goes for our Afrikaans schools where the problem is actually more acute. They are turned into new bastions of apartheid because of the same sort of hypocrisy regarding language and race.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    ozoneblue, you honestly believe that something becomes true just because you say it is true, as in: “The moon is made of … [fill in whatever youlike].”

    Maggs Naidu: How? It has been done. Long ago. Jan Rabie already said: “Afrikaans is Suid-Afrika se grootste nierassige prestasie.” That’s not sentiment, it’s fact. No language is spoken by a wider variety of South Africans of all races and classes. And the Afrikaans language activists are not only white. You have racist whites who refuse to learn, speak or associate with “black languages” (as they like to call it), and you have racists who will never want to be associated in any way with Afrikaans. You had Germans who wanted to distance themselves from Jews … I could go on. The language belongs to everyone and is spoken by a large diversity. Those who don’t want in because of racial, class and ethnic hatred should solve their own problems, not make it ours.

  • Trevorio

    @Thomas

    ”English is and remains the language in which cultures meet, not Afrikaans.”

    You can say that again.The sooner we teach ourselves to come to terms with reality the better. I do not need English though to communicate with fellow African people from the following countries: Lesotho,Swaziland, Mozambique, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana and Malawi.

  • ozoneblue

    Gerrit Brand says:
    November 9, 2011 at 17:18 pm

    “No language is spoken by a wider variety of South Africans of all races and classes.”

    That might be true. Why is none of that rich diversity reflected on our Afrikaans university campuses though ? or in our Afrikaans school?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    ozoneblue
    November 9, 2011 at 20:06 pm

    Hey OB,

    “That might be true.”

    It is true.

    Advocate Bellem spoke to a judge in Afrikaans. Sort of.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 20:06 pm

    Since when has that been a core function of an educational institution? To reflect rich diversity?

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 17:13 pm

    Do you realise the implications of what you babble?

    Since when is it the core function of a university or school to recruit anyone based on their race or exclude anyone based on their race rather than to provide a service to anyone who can be there and keep up?

    What is a university’s product?

    Quotas?

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:53 pm

    Do white, Afrikaans, middleclass families not have the right to have their children educated as and when they choose?

    If they do not what right does the state have to their taxes which should otherwise go to that purpose?

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:53 pm

    How, exactly, do you relate the core functions of a university to Afrikaners ‘opening up’ and ‘being more inclusive’? What does that mean?

    S 29(2) of the Constitution says everyone has the right to education in the language of their choice at public educational institutions. The reality looks more like a war of position with the little Afrikaans islands on the map steadily shrinking. Here you come along and say there should not be any islands.

    So where will education in Afrikaans be available?

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:05 pm

    I just made your silly prescriptive rant about how threatened minorities should guard their rights (or not) look ridiculous by pointing to the iconic guardian of minority rights – the very ethnic NAACP.

    Now you want to prescribe that threatened minorities ought not to do research or gather data about the most basic right – life?

    Shuddup! Siddown!

  • Brett Nortje

    Thomas Blaser says:
    November 9, 2011 at 16:28 pm

    1) Great! You concede that the tug of war over Afrikaans/English is a front in the war of position?

    “I think it is quite clear that Stellenbosch and its university is a white space.”

    2) How is getting more black students to come to Stellenbosch a core function of the university?

    “Only when English is maintained and established, will more black students come to Stellenbosch.”

  • ozoneblue

    ozoneblue says:
    November 9, 2011 at 17:13 pm

    “Since when is it the core function of a university or school to recruit anyone based on their race or exclude anyone based on their race rather than to provide a service to anyone who can be there and keep up?”

    So if you mean that service to be a good education your should then also ask since when is it the function of a university to exclude anyone based on their language rather than to provide a service to anyone who can be there and keep up?

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 9, 2011 at 21:59 pm

    “Since when is it the core function of a university or school to recruit anyone based on their race or exclude anyone based on their race rather than to provide a service to anyone who can be there and keep up?”

    So if you mean that service to be a good education your should then also ask since when is it the function of a university to exclude anyone based on their language rather than to provide a service to anyone who can be there and keep up?

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 9, 2011 at 22:20 pm

    Still don’t understand what the USA and NAACP has to do with this. Except that perhaps in your deeply racist view of the world there is some parallel here.

    I also don’t know what you mean when you carry on about “minorities”. Do you mean Afrikaans speakers or Afrikaners or perhaps just white people? As Gerrit Brand pointed out Afrikaans speakers are definitely not a linguistic minority, but along with Xhosa and Zulu one of three majority languages. So you should stop wearing your Afrikaner minority chip on your shoulder pretending you are wearing it on behalf of all Afrikaans speakers. Rather ask yourself why our Afrikaans intuitions are so dominated by a single ethnic minority.

  • Brett Nortje

    You can shove your conclusions about my deeply racist world view up your rectum.

    Like everything else you utter is a non-sequitur, for which you offer not a hint of substantiation.

    Since you insist, although I was just switching my PC off after a snooze before I hurt my bed….

    You said:”Although I generally support Solidarity/Afriforum, if they do not succeed to grow beyond their narrow Apartheid defined ethnic base, they will also fail to provide a vision and a long term strategy for the cultural rights of the Afrikaner.”

    I pointed out that one of the world’s most revered civil rights movements is the NAACP – which operates from a narrowly defined ethnic base.

    Geddit? Is their strategy to protect African-Americans’ cultural (and other) rights iillegitimate?

    You were attempting to delegitimise AFriforum standing up for Afrikaner interests – pure and simple.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 10, 2011 at 0:22 am
    Well, ironically then you certainly don’t understand what the word “colored” means in the US context. Do yourself a favor and visit:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

    http://mg.co.za/article/2008-05-24-the-21st-century-pencil-test

  • Paul Kearney

    So PdV answers my question in a backhanded way. Let everyone be taught in English. C’mon “Prof” spit it out. Now tell me who you are prejudicing considering SA has 11 languages, 9 of which have probably been under-represented in SA. You can’t argue against Gerrit Brand’s facts but just quote numbers, Jimmy Manyi style. Maybe it’s a blog / opinion thing but I’m always disappointed when an academic adandons logic, fact and analysis and jumps to a conclusion he likes out of sentiment. Such is the new SA and I can speculate that you want to pull US down to your level.

    The real answer I feel lies at primary level where not enough indigenous language education is offered. Now tell us again Prof, be brave and clear, stuff indigenous language, let all be taught in English. I don’t mind, I’m English.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=158168

    Baleka Mbete defines corruption for us … and seems to have no problem with it.

    Viva ANC? Viva?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 10, 2011 at 0:22 am

    Hey Goofy,

    “You can shove your conclusions about my deeply racist world view up your rectum.”

    Well said.

    That’s where your views belong!

    p.s. be a sport, choose a number from one to three.

  • Brett Nortje

    Baer says:
    November 10, 2011 at 7:24 am

    Baleka Mbete set the tone for the kleptocracy with her alleged driving test in Delmas. You know, stopping at an alleged robot, pulling away?

    And she is still the public face of the godless, shameless ANC.

    Viva ANC? Viva?

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    To my utter astonishment I read in this morning’s newspaper (the Afrikaans one more widely read than any of the English ones and with a minority of white readers) that Pierre de Vos is now suggesting that, rather than an exclusively Afrikaans policy, the University of Stellenbosch should use interpreting between English and Afrikaans in the classroom. Quite logical, Pierre, but this is exactly what the “taalbulle” are asking for in the motion to which your prejudiced and uninformed entry was a reaction. Now you try to bring this suggestion against them!

    This is an interesting phenomenon in the pro-English discourse on language in SA. When the Stellenbosch language debate errupted around 2001 the “taabulle” were asking that parallel-medium and interpretation be used to maintain Afrikaans without doing it in an inclusive way. At that time the university rejected this and opted for what is called the “T-option”. The latter means using both Afrikaans and English (50/50) in the classroom – a weird strategy for inclusiveness because it presupposes that all students in the classroom understand both languages. And this waqs insisted on in the name of making the university more inclusive, and respite the fact that the black students organisation was against it and indicated quite clearly that they would prefer parrallel-medium, precisy because the T-option would be to their disadvantage. Now suddenly, in the same debate, the use of parralel-medium and interpreting in the classroom are portrayd as in opposition to the “taalbulle”!

    Pierre, just admit it. You were wrong – from beginning to end, and utterly and completely. We all make mistakes like that, so just admit it. Also the fact that you have completely ignored the work of a constitutional expert in this like Theo du Plessis, leftest academics like Neville Alexander, economists like Francois Grin, sociolinguists like Kwesi Prah, and educationists like Michael le Courdeur.

    Finally, since you have now been converted to the Potch-developed, “taalbul”-supported, internationally respected practise of using interpreting in the classroom, how about stopping your battle against the multilingual universities like the SU and directing the very reasonable demand for linguistic inclusivity and accessibility to your own university and the other monolingual universities (the English-only majority of higher education institutions). That would really be in the spirit of the constitution, and would reflect true radical and critical thinking, rather than white, liberal prejudice.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Sorry: In the phrase “that parallel-medium and interpretation be used to maintain Afrikaans without doing it in an inclusive way”, “inclusive” (the “taalbulle”-demand) should of course be “exclusive” (the anti-“taalbulle”-attitude). Their are also some spelling mistakes and gramatical mistakes (I am, after all, writing in the language of the empire, and it’s early in the morning). Also: “interpreting” should be reading “interpreting services” throughout.

  • Brett Nortje

    Baer says:
    November 10, 2011 at 7:24 am

    In the same week Moody’s changed SOuth Africa’s credit rating outlook to ‘negative’?

    Over R400 million and counting. The ANC has roundly repudiated the modus vivendi which lies at the base of our constitutional agreement – their funding must be cut off.

    Tax strike.

    This government’s legitimacy rests on 2 pillars: our founding agreement and the consent of the people. The ANC has abandoned its claim to being the legitimate government of this country.

    It is insane to keep funding the war they are waging against white South Africans, and the ANC’s profligacy, while most people in this country claim for them, nothing has changed.

    http://www.beeld.com/Suid-Afrika/Nuus/Nog-miljoene-duurder-20111109

  • Brett Nortje

    Gerrit Brand says:
    November 10, 2011 at 9:07 am

    Heel anders as Pierre, wat nooit kan erken hy is verkeerd nie!

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Trevorio, you write: ”English is and remains the language in which cultures meet, not Afrikaans.”

    Well, this space at which they meet is sponsored by Anglo-American. The nice thing about it for the empirical elite is that in that space the masses are excluded so that those who, despite their charming “diversity”, share the same values, namely, worshiping the god of the market and the nation state, can enjoy cocktales together. Read Slavosj Zizek on this.

  • ozoneblue

    Gerrit Brand says:
    November 10, 2011 at 9:02 am

    “Finally, since you have now been converted to the Potch-developed, “taalbul”-supported,”

    LOL. Are you suggesting Pierre should visit the capitol of the old boer republics more often?

    On a serious note. I have lectured under the translator system and I find it quite unpractical, not to mention the associated costs of operating such a system.

  • Pierre De Vos

    Gerrit, I told the journalist that interpretation could be an option (but also said I am not an expert on this and it would need to be practicable implementable) on condition that the University becomes a multi-lingual University – not an Afrikaans University that “accommodates” English as an afterthought retaining the unique Afrikaans character of the US. My understanding is that the taalbulle are fighting for the retention of this Afrikaans character which excludes black students directly and indirectly. My proposal would mean that Stellenbosch becomes truly multi-lingual. I am not sure there is political support for abolishing the Afrikaans character of the University.

  • ozoneblue

    If the taallbulle and the Afrikaans universities really want to promote Afrikaans why don’t the start by publishing a quality, free Afrikaans dictionary online. Or at the very least develop a cooperative website where a consistent technical Afrikaans terminology for academical and technical usage can be developed and made accessible. I simply don’t have time to think up my own Afrikaans words for CPU, extensible mark-up language, stem cell research or neocolonialism.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Pierre

    Would you also advise English institutions to become multilingual, or is it only Afrikaans ones that should?
    Can you please argue for Sotho and Tswana to become the main languages of instruction at the recently anglicised Free State university of Technology, and for multilingualism at state funded institutions and departments that have been completely anglicised in the last few years?

  • Janpn

    Tippies SA. ‘n Debat word oor Afrikaans gevoer in Engels. Praat van paternalisties. Hoekom is die protes van ‘n Afrikaanse student(e) dan so ‘n sensitiewe saak, dat baie ander groepe (taal) skielik ook in hordes tot hierdie debat toetree? Hoekom is dit vir u so belangrik dat Afrikaans nie die taal van voorkeur op Stellenbosch mag wees nie? Wat is die verskil tussen ‘n Afrikaanse US en ‘n Engelse UK?
    Prof. de Vos, hoekom is US dan eksklusief en UK inklusief? My afleiding is dat u die stelling maak dat die oorgrote nie-wittes Engels magtig is. Hoekom protesteer u (grondwetlik) dat ‘n Afrikaanse student nie op sy taalvoorkeur mag aandring, maar nie oor die reg van ‘n student om sy studies sonder die ontwrigting deur ander te kan voortsit nie? ( Miskien het u?) Hoeveel eksklusiewe Engelse universiteite wil u dan nog vir u toeëien? Daar is reeds twee in die Wes Kaap. Wie ontken wie se regte hier?
    Prof. u stel dit dat een van die motiewe is dat die aksiegroep die US kampus wil wit hou – weereens ‘n afleiding. Wat is u motiewe my geagte Prof.? Hoekom gaan ek (as Afrikaanse oudstudent) verder enige finansiële bydrae tot die US maak?
    Ai, ons arme p—h-lle wat nog lief is vir Afrikaans.

  • Janpn

    Tippies SA. ‘n Debat word oor Afrikaans gevoer in Engels. Praat van paternalisties. Hoekom is die protes van ‘n Afrikaanse student(e) dan so ‘n sensitiewe saak, dat baie ander groepe (taal) skielik ook in hordes tot hierdie debat toetree? Hoekom is dit vir u so belangrik dat Afrikaans nie die taal van voorkeur op Stellenbosch mag wees nie? Wat is die verskil tussen ‘n Afrikaanse US en ‘n Engelse UK?
    Prof. de Vos, hoekom is US dan eksklusief en UK inklusief? My afleiding is dat u die stelling maak dat die oorgrote nie-wittes Engels magtig is. Hoekom protesteer u (grondwetlik) dat ‘n Afrikaanse student nie op sy taalvoorkeur mag aandring, maar nie oor die reg van ‘n student om sy studies sonder die ontwrigting deur ander te kan voortsit nie? ( Miskien het u?) Hoeveel eksklusiewe Engelse universiteite wil u dan nog vir u toeëien? Daar is reeds twee in die Wes Kaap. Wie ontken wie se regte hier?
    Prof. u stel dit dat een van die motiewe is dat die aksiegroep die US kampus wil wit hou – weereens ‘n afleiding. Wat is u motiewe my geagte Prof.? Hoekom gaan ek (as Afrikaanse oudstudent) verder enige finansiële bydrae tot die US maak?
    Ai, ons arme p—h-lle wat nog lief is vir Afrikaans.

  • Janpn

    Tippies SA. ‘n Debat word oor Afrikaans gevoer in Engels. Praat van paternalisties. Hoekom is die protes van ‘n Afrikaanse student(e) dan so ‘n sensitiewe saak, dat baie ander groepe (taal) skielik ook in hordes tot hierdie debat toetree? Hoekom is dit vir u so belangrik dat Afrikaans nie die taal van voorkeur op Stellenbosch mag wees nie? Wat is die verskil tussen ‘n Afrikaanse US en ‘n Engelse UK?
    Prof. de Vos, hoekom is US dan eksklusief en UK inklusief? My afleiding is dat u die stelling maak dat die oorgrote nie-wittes Engels magtig is. Hoekom protesteer u (grondwetlik) dat ‘n Afrikaanse student nie op sy taalvoorkeur mag aandring, maar nie oor die reg van ‘n student om sy studies sonder die ontwrigting deur ander te kan voortsit nie? ( Miskien het u?) Hoeveel eksklusiewe Engelse universiteite wil u dan nog vir u toeëien? Daar is reeds twee in die Wes Kaap. Wie ontken wie se regte hier?
    Prof. u stel dit dat een van die motiewe is dat die aksiegroep die US kampus wil wit hou – weereens ‘n afleiding. Wat is u motiewe my geagte Prof.? Hoekom gaan ek (as Afrikaanse oudstudent) verder enige finansiële bydrae tot die US maak?
    Ai, ons arme p—h-lle wat nog lief is vir Afrikaans.

  • ozoneblue

    Janpn says:
    November 10, 2011 at 10:10 am

    “Hoekom gaan ek (as Afrikaanse oudstudent) verder enige finansiële bydrae tot die US maak?”

    I thought a well educated nation, no matter in what language, are in the best interest of all South Africans.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Alleman

    With respect, it is churlish to accuse Pierre of hypocrisy when he has not had the opportunity to demonstrate his consistency. I have no doubt that Pierre would, if needs be, support a demand for lectures at UCT law school to be offered in Sepedi, Sesotho, Setswana, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Afrikaans, isiNdebele, isiXhosa and isiZulu!

  • Brett Nortje

    Look, Dworky, my friendly contempt for Pierre and Michael over the gate-guard role they’ve assigned themselves – thumbing their noses at the spirit behind our skills legislation and the NQF – is on record on this blog.

    You however are turning a question of fact into a dispute over motive.

    What can you show us that Pierre has done to turn UCT into a dual-medium institution?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    Brett, I do not know why you speak in terns of “dual” medium. Are you not aware that we have 11 official languages? Given that UCT’s catchment area is nation-wide, there is a not unreasonable chance that a speaker of Tshivenda, for example, would apply to UCT law school, if it offered law lectures in that tongue. My point was that, given Pierre’s record of principled consistency, I am confident that he is doing whatever he can to ensure that Delict is taught in Sesotho, Setswana, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Afrikaans, isiNdebele, isiXhosa and isiZulu next year!

  • Brett Nortje

    Dworky, I do not have the demographics readily at hand – perhaps you do?

    But I am guessing the concentration of Afrikaans-speakers around UCT to the Flats is higher than the concentration of Afrikaans-1st-language-speakers around Loftus Versveld?

    Moreover, is the dispute about imposing English at Stellenbosch or all the official languages?

  • Stephan Bernard

    Dear Pierre,

    If your argument is correct then, by implication, there should also be no schools in SA with a medium of instruction other than English, for this apparently constitutes an “exclusion of black South Africans”, right? Should all universities in all countries in which the population comprises several minority groups be English? Simplistic, yes, but this is essentially what your argument boils down to, don’t you agree?

    If Stellenbosch was the only university in SA then, by all means, let us advocate the use of a language that is most accessible to most South Africans. But it is not. It is one of a triform of Western Cape universities, of which the other two are exclusively English. The predominant use of Afrikaans at Stellenbosch would therefore not exclude those who prefer to study in English from the system – such a student would simply have to apply to the university which best suits him/her. To extend the analogy: I might choose to attend [some English school] and not [some Afrikaans school]. The scenario where both of these schools exist (assuming that both offer a quality service) is in my opinion preferable to having two English-only institutions and considering this “all-inclusive”.

    Is the ideal set-up truly one where we have 30 homogeneous universities (strictly English-only, 80:10:10 racial profile), or one where we have a heterogeneous mix of centres of excellence?

    Furthermore, the persistent reference to those concerned for the future of Afrikaans as “taalbulle” is most malevolent and deceiving. It is easy to make a valid argument seem ludicrous by attacking a caricature of those who propose it. Many young and open-minded South Africans are also concerned about this country becoming a place where they are not allowed a cultural home.

    “This is not to say that ons taal (sic) will disappear.” I find this assertion naive. If the use of Afrikaans at a tertiary level is smothered then you will soon find no more examples of quality Afrikaans music, art and literature (as those that you have mentioned, Pierre) seeing the light. Loftus Marais, Marlene van Niekerk, Antjie Krog, Johannes Kerkorrel – these artists all produced Afrikaans works of note because they were allowed to study at, or be involved with, universities where higher order thinking in Afrikaans was encouraged.

    Without a university that is, not exclusively, but predominantly Afrikaans, the language will be reduced to what it once was – a kitchen language, for as soon as a situation arises where English dominates, it soon devours. And I for one do not wish for South Africa to become just another Anglo-American outpost. The preservation and development of indigenous languages is important to some South Africans and you should allow them that. This country’s beauty lies in its diversity.

    PS. The anger and embitterment that permeates from this post is most saddening.

    PPS. Thank you, Sirjay Jonson.

  • Brett Nortje
  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 10, 2011 at 13:43 pm

    I can see now how you operate. You abuse forums like this to continuously post anti-ANC rants that has noting to do with topic that is being debated. Just another load-mouthed racist that abuses the Afrikaner cause and Afrikaans for making propaganda.

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    Pierre, you write: “My understanding is that the taalbulle are fighting for the retention of this Afrikaans character which excludes black students directly and indirectly.”

    That this is your understanding is clear, just as it is clear that it is Jacob Zuma’s understanding that people who vote for him will go to heaven. The fact that something is your understanding does not make it true, and the fact that your understanding emplies that the black “taalbulle” “are fighting for the retention of this Afrikaans character which excludes black students directly and indirectly”, taken together with the fact that there is not the slightest evidence that the white half are fighting for it makes that understanding seem doubtful to say the least. Once again, admit it: it is pure prejudice speaking.

    *

    Ozoneblue, you write: “If the taallbulle and the Afrikaans universities really want to promote Afrikaans why don’t the start by publishing a quality, free Afrikaans dictionary online. Or at the very least develop a cooperative website where a consistent technical Afrikaans terminology for academical and technical usage can be developed and made accessible. I simply don’t have time to think up my own Afrikaans words for CPU, extensible mark-up language, stem cell research or neocolonialism.”

    There are many such projects already. If you’re really interested, contact the Woordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal in Stellenbosch (by the way, they, as well as the University of Stellenbosch, are also providing strong support to similar projeks in the other African languages, since the government is not doing it). The office of the Afrikaanse Taalraad will also be able to refer you.

    *

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder, you write: “With respect, it is churlish to accuse Pierre of hypocrisy when he has not had the opportunity to demonstrate his consistency. I have no doubt that Pierre would, if needs be, support a demand for lectures at UCT law school to be offered in Sepedi, Sesotho, Setswana, siSwati, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, Afrikaans, isiNdebele, isiXhosa and isiZulu!”

    What constitutes an “opportunity”? In the case of SU the “opportunity” was a request that Afrikaans be safeguarded without excluding non-Afrikaans speakers. There have often been language debates at UCT and UWC, so Pierre has had “opportunities”, yet has chosen not to make his plea for multilingual faculties of law and the like. Fact is, the English only universities are sitting pretty and this does not bother Pierre.

  • ozoneblue

    Gerrit Brand says:
    November 10, 2011 at 14:54 pm

    So you can’t just give me a simple link?

  • http://blogs.litnet.co.za/gerritbrand Gerrit Brand

    ozoneblue, if you are looking for specialist vocabulary, as your comments suggested, then unfortubately, even though the vocabulary is there and accessible, I cannot point you to a simple link, but this applies to every language in the world.

  • ozoneblue

    Gerrit Brand says:
    November 10, 2011 at 15:24 pm

    so the answer is no. It is not accessible because it is probably lock-in by some kind of copyright of one of these business-centric Afrikaans universities. I was not even talking about specialized vocabulary however, I was talking about a quality online dictionary.

  • English Matie

    @ ‘n Matie: I too am fed up with the constant bickering over the taalbeleid here at Stellenbosch. I am an English female also studying law and I have had to survive through all the Afrikaans and it hasn’t hurt me. Like you say, we now have more skills in languages than most. What I find so infuriating is the inability of these ‘taalbulle’ to listen to any other arguments. The minute a complaint is brought up about too much Afrikaans, I get told “then go to UCT”. Are they now stating that we cannot even attend the institution of our choice just because they feel that their language is being minimalized?

    It is ironic to me that these protesters fail to consider other students and the freedom of their choices in this debate. They state that no tolerance is being given to them, yet they are the ones intolerant of any other languages and cultures. Although they may see themselves as being advocates for their language, I feel in reality they are nothing more than arrogant oppressors of others.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 10, 2011 at 14:18 pm

    You do have a dictionary? Look up ‘racist’ and back up your defamatory accusations of ‘racism’.

    Hopefully you spend a lot of time in a dictionary. Your English needs a bit of help, so it is surprising that you are so enthusiastic about English-medium instruction.

    Regards
    Load-mouth

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Brett Nortje

    Moody doesn’t revise its opinions often, and not unless there’s a compelling reason to do so.

    Malema’s (pending) suspension is not a good enough reason. Even if it is, we’ll only see an upgrade a year from now, at best.

    Thanks, ANC, for dragging your bloated, vampiric corpse on yet another important issue.

    (I have to admit I don’t know what you mean by a ‘war against whites’! As far as I can tell, it’s a war against everyone that’s not in the elites’ little clique! It’s the political equivalent of Mean Girls. Or Dangerous Liasons, if you prefer.)

  • sirjay jonson

    @English Matie
    November 10, 2011 at 18:48 pm

    You say: “I am an English female also studying law and I have had to survive through all the Afrikaans and it hasn’t hurt me.” (Emphasis: ‘it hasn’t hurt me’.)

    And then you state: “Although they (the taalbulle) may see themselves as being advocates for their language, I feel in reality they are nothing more than arrogant oppressors of others.” (‘oppressors’, powerful word with powerfully negative implications.)

    Have you any idea the pressures on minority languages, or the need to preserve them for the health of both their and our national community? You are receiving the benefits, wouldn’t it be more fitting to express appreciation.

    When in Rome, do as the Romans do… when at Stellenbosh U, do likewise.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 10, 2011 at 20:23 pm

    So a simple question on how much Afrikaans universities are doing to promote the language online is met with some more racial mudslinging ?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    sirjay jonson
    November 10, 2011 at 21:25 pm

    Hey SJ,

    “When in Rome, do as the Romans do… when at Stellenbosh U, do likewise.”

    Hmmm – how about ‘When is South Africa, abide by our Constitution’?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    ozoneblue
    November 10, 2011 at 21:36 pm

    OB,

    “So a simple question”

    Sigh!

    My question for Brett is even simpler but alas he fails at that.

  • ozoneblue

    sirjay jonson says:
    November 10, 2011 at 21:25 pm

    Let me try to explain again. Afrikaans is not a “minority” language.

    “According to the 2001 census, isiZulu is the mother tongue of 23.8% of South Africa’s population, followed by isiXhosa at 17.6%, Afrikaans at 13.3%, Sesotho sa Leboa at 9.4%, and Setswana and English each at 8.2%.”

    http://www.southafrica.info/about/people/language.htm

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    ozoneblue

    That’s beside the point.

    Because Afrikaans has been supported academically, it has developed to convey complex information such as math, science, philosophy … To sideline it is to deprive the language of its richness.

    As Sirjay stated above, to remove it from its exclusivity at SU (and SU only) is to revert it to its kitchen origins. Which is fine, I guess, but then don’t expect all the richness of culture, thought and science that’s developed from it.

    You’d be depriving the country of a huge boon. Focus instead on further developing all African languages (the rest have a lot of catching up to do) to support education and robust thought, by creating universities that specifically cater for the predominant, non-English language in an area.

    Add a Xhosa university to the WC, a Zulu university to KZN, et cetera, instead of subtracting the Afrikaans one.

    There is this great little 15-minute movie called ‘2081’. Find it if you can. Physically capable people are forced to wear weights. Thinkers are aurally tortured if they try to form a thought. Beautiful people have to wear masks.

    This is the downside of Pierre’s ideology. Let’s not level by subtraction. It’s such an ugly idea.

    Addition is the answer.

  • Brett Nortje

    sirjay jonson says:
    November 10, 2011 at 21:25 pm

    Sirjay, it is even simpler than that – Matie chose to be there, too much Afrikaans and all.

    How do Canadian universities deal with this problem?

  • ozoneblue

    Baer says:
    November 10, 2011 at 22:00 pm

    “As Sirjay stated above, to remove it from its exclusivity at SU (and SU only) ”

    So are you suggesting it should be stripped of its “exclusivity” at NWU. Do yo even have the foggiest of idea of what you are talking about?

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Ozoneblue

    I don’t know much of the specifics here.

    The principle remains.

    Instead of nitpicking, try to contend with the substance of the post.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Baer
    November 10, 2011 at 22:36 pm

    Hey Baer,

    “Instead of nitpicking”

    Eish – snap.

    It’s exactly what I thought when I read “Do yo even have the foggiest of idea of what you are talking about?”

    He really ought to stop nit picking!

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    @Mikhail
    I’m not sure if what you mean means what you meant to say, but I did not, in fact, call Pierre a hypocrite. If any hypocrisy came to light as a result of anything I wrote, I apologise to anyone affected.

  • Brett Nortje

    Hehehe!

    http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=266033&sn=Detail&pid=71616

    Taxpayers are doing reparations every month
    Rhoda Kadalie
    10 November 2011

    Rhoda Kadalie says it is corrupt ANC politicians, not whites, who are the enemies of black progress

    6 November 2011

    The Editor

    As I write this letter I am watching Judge for Yourself (e-News Channel) with Judge Dennis Davis, asking yet again whether there should be a wealth tax to make reparations for the past. Dubiously named Constitutional Law Expert, Pierre De Vos, patronisingly bangs on and on about white culpability for apartheid insisting that white people pay back because “they structurally benefited from apartheid.”

    He suggests that a Development Fund be set up to target areas that will benefit the poor. Accusing Dave Steward (FW DE Klerk Foundation) of race-blindness, he claims that his rejection of the idea of a wealth tax is racist. UCT’s ubiquitous legal expert does not distinguish between racism, racial discrimination and race and throws these accusations around with gay abandon.

    Secondly, Mr De Vos, need I remind you that 1994 was about smashing apartheid and white minority domination; more importantly, 1994 was also about black people taking over government and taking control of our destiny. To suggest yet another fund, he forgets that the National Development Agency, the National Empowerment Fund, the Land Bank, and the Land Restitution Commission were all attempts at redress.

    Sadly these institutions have been notoriously inept at doing so because of large-scale corruption. The ANC government has been incapable of spending our taxes properly, let alone manage a Guilt-Fund. The guilt-trip is counter-productive and exposes De Vos’ ego more than convincing us of his pathetic arguments.

    Furthermore, he refuses to deal with corruption and condones Black Economic Enrichment, perpetuating the stereotype of blacks as victims who cannot take responsibility for their own political salvation. Taxpayers are doing reparations every month while government officials enrich themselves with our taxes.

    De Vos, it is high time you realise that political correctness is incompatible with your title of Constitutional Law expert. Your job is to be balanced, rational, fair, just and scientific. You fail on all these scores. Pity the poor students!

    Rhoda Kadalie

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 10, 2011 at 23:24 pm

    Hey Goofy

    “Hehehe!” indeed.

    Rhoda Kadalie is very comical in a silly way!

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Maggs

    Instead of having anything useful to say about the point I raised, he scratched at my saying there was one Afrikaans university.

    Sorry, OB! Afrikaans isn’t that interesting to me- I forgot about the second university and I only know about one of the cultural fairs, the KKK. The point remains that these universities cater for Afrikaans populations in their area, and forcing them to change would deprive those populations of a chance to be all they can be.

    How does the incorrectness of my fact erase the argument? It doesn’t. OB just didn’t have anything with which to counter. Now he’s just arguing for the sake of it.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    Maggs

    ‘Eish – snap’

    That’s what Fikile said. :)

  • ozoneblue

    Baer says:
    November 11, 2011 at 6:10 am

    You said there should be only one Afrikaans university i.e. SU. The fact is we have an Afrikaans university already i.e. NWU. Pierre’s article doesn’t even touch on it, perhaps because NWU is considered too much “right wing” territory and therefore off the map. The sad thing for me is that the Afrikaner interest groups like Solidarity/Afriform are also excluded form these debates, or they do not partake because they are immediately labeled and villainised. Most proponents of Afrikaans in here are DA types or lets rather say anti-ANC. The FF+ for example closely associated with Afriforum only got 1% of the vote. It is Afriforum that took on Malema for ‘kill the Boer”. The very same DA’s Athol Trollip recently disparagingly referred to right-wing Afrikaners as nazis and “that Afrikaner issue”. Not a single Afrikaans speaking DA supporter complained about that one. The DA also likes to refer to the FF+ as “sell-outs” because their leader Dr. Connie Mulder has agreed to serve on Pres Zuma’s cabinet. Getting back to what I’m saying – “minority rights”, the “Afrikaner issue” and Afrikaans universities are a political toys in the hands of the opposition and are mostly used as a stick to beat the ANC with when it suits them. but what is their language policy?

  • Janpn

    @ Baer.
    “You’d be depriving the country of a huge boon. Focus instead on further developing all African languages (the rest have a lot of catching up to do) to support education and robust thought, by creating universities that specifically cater for the predominant, non-English language in an area.

    Add a Xhosa university to the WC, a Zulu university to KZN, et cetera, instead of subtracting the Afrikaans one”.

    Thumbs up for that.

  • Brett Nortje

    More on Maggs’ ‘Developmental state’ (which is nothing to brag about!)

    http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=158444

    GAVIN LEWIS: Economy
    Try something different from job-eating central planning

    Published: 2011/11/11 07:24:41 AM

    JOSEPH Stalin had a much easier job than President Jacob Zuma when it comes to central planning. Since the Plan, devised by ideologues and bureaucrats with no knowledge of business or industry, was by definition perfect, any failure of the Plan could only mean sabotage by counter-revolutionaries. So the solution to the failure of the Plan was to shoot the saboteurs. No such luck for Zuma, living as he does in a democracy with a battered but extant market-based economy. Yet, although the concepts that underlie central planning may have died with the collapse of the Soviet bloc, they live on, zombie-like, at the southern tip of Africa.

    The damage central planning causes to jobs is clear. In the past decade, SA has underperformed the global average, the developed world’s average, the undeveloped world’s average and Africa’s average. We sit with the highest recorded unemployment rate in the world.

    There is a cost to central planning in SA and nowhere is it more apparent than in the costs to the economy, and thus to jobs, through the chief implementation agencies of that planning, our state-owned enterprises (SOEs). They form the centrepiece of the “developmental state” that the alliance ideologues fondly imagine exists so successfully in SA. Yet the cost of this is immense and it is mounting. In the four years to last year, bail-outs of SOEs cost taxpayers R243bn.

    Nor does it end there. Burdened by the cost of the unwanted King Shaka airport in KwaZulu-Natal, the Airports Company SA, a state agency, wants to recoup its losses with a 132% increase in airport taxes. Yet tourism lies at the heart of industrial policy as a prime job creator. The SABC, playing interminable musical chairs with its incompetent leadership of deployed cadres, is an endless drain on state resources. And every household and small enterprise in SA strains under the costs of the annual 25%-plus hike in Eskom’s charges. There is no money left for savings, nor for consumption, as these state monopolies leech on SA’s economy.

    All of this costs jobs. While “good news” SA was warbling on to investors about SA’s “cheap” electricity, the state planners ignored the market signals of a looming crisis until the wheels fell off. It meant the end of another triumph of state planning, the Coega deep- water harbour, which immediately lost a R2,5bn investment by Rio Tinto Alcan.

    Most recently, even as the state’s Industrial Policy Action Plan 2 targets “beneficiation”, which basically means adding energy to heat raw ore, SA’s only zinc smelter, near Springs, closed down due to uncompetitive electricity tariff hikes. Yet state planners continue to punt smelters as a solution to job creation. From 2005 to 2014, independent economist Mike Schussler reminds us, electricity prices based on already-agreed tariffs, will have risen by 633%. Schussler estimates this alone will reduce SA’s gross domestic product (GDP) by 1% a year.

    Since 2009, power shortages have pulled the plug on an estimated R6bn in new property and construction initiatives, says the Cement and Concrete Industry, while mining, a job mainstay in this economy, has also taken a knock.

    It is this very developmental state, as conceptualised by the government, that is the real and present danger to economic growth and the 5-million new jobs target.

    If we examine where the developmental state has had successes, such as in some of the Far East’s economies, we quickly see that there is very little common ground between our fantasies of the developmental state and the developmental state in, for instance South Korea in the 1950s and 1960s. In an address to the Helen Suzman Foundation (Focus 2009), William Gumede provides a useful summary of the reasons for South Korea’s developmental state succeeding. The developmental state in South Korea had the following core characteristics:
    – A highly technocratic bureaucracy. In other words, it had a public service with competent people;
    – A public service that drew on the whole country’s talents, regardless of race or gender, drawing on the best skills available;
    – Clear policies with easily measurable targets towards their achievement;
    – A coalition in which business and labour are equal partners, with no political preferences given to either; and
    – Decisive leadership. Without it, countries unwilling to make the necessary hard decisions tend to drift from policy to policy.

    As each policy fails, so it is replaced with a new one, while the real economy falters.

    These points also help explain why government’s countercyclical public infrastructure investment of R785bn remains elusive.

    Nor is this new. From 1995 to 2004, public sector investment in SA was stagnant at 5% of GDP, way below the average of capitalist economies. The “developmental” state lacks the capacity to implement development. It exists in the fantasy life of the Blade Nzimandes and Ebrahim Patels of this world. Nor has it helped that SOEs lack planning and execution skills under leaders appointed for political, not business, reasons.

    Nonetheless, among the leadership of the Congress of South African Trade Unions and the South African Communist Party, the concept of the developmental state remains a central component of SA’s march to the sunny uplands of the hoped-for national democratic revolution.

    There is no modesty here, no sign of a fundamental rethink. So, as night follows day, the Growth, Employment and Redistribution policy is followed by the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for SA, and now the New Growth Path.

    When expressed through the SOEs, these developmental state assumptions about redistribution and shared growth produce the kind of problems that are epitomised by Eskom. If they were not so richly rewarded, it would be possible to feel pity for Eskom’s leaders of recent years, as they try to meet the contradictory demands of the developmental state proponents in SA.

    Thus Eskom’s management was simultaneously supposed to run this monopoly as a profit-making business on the one hand and to provide “free” electricity and meet expensive social goals on the other. It was an impossible ask.

    Much the same applies to Telkom , which even now holds a death-like grip on the local loop, which has seen much poorer countries such as Kenya roar past Africa’s only industrialising economy in the provision of affordable broadband services. The cost in jobs forgone can be guessed at by international experience, which shows that universal broadband access alone can add up to 1% a year to GDP. Yet the state in this country willingly forgoes that opportunity for growth. Meanwhile, rapid technological advances have allowed the cellphone industry to connect far more South Africans at an affordable rate than Telkom, with all its billions in taxpayer subsidies, can dream of.

    And under SOE Transnet, the port of Durban was this year awarded the honour of being both the most expensive and the most inefficient in the world. Yet the German economy (for instance) has been rescued from global recession in large part due to increased exports. And the rail bottlenecks that stop us from exploiting the commodities booms are all too well known.

    In sum, the developmental state in SA has a record of failure. Ordinary South Africans in the real economy can’t afford our ideologues or business as usual. It’s time to learn the lessons and do things differently.
    • Lewis is a Democratic Alliance member of the Gauteng legislature.

  • ozoneblue

    Janpn says:
    November 11, 2011 at 8:25 am

    Yep. So are you saying the Afrikaans one should be NWU.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 11, 2011 at 8:41 am

    Again a post that has nothing to do with the thread. If I was PdV I would simply ban you.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Brett Nortje
    November 11, 2011 at 8:41 am

    Hey Goofy,

    “More on Maggs’ ‘Developmental state’ (which is nothing to brag about!)”

    Another piece of regurgitated stuff – we know already that our country is in need of a lot of repair. It’s the legacy which your uncles left us (Rhoda Kadalie ‘forgot’ to mention).

    The DA would do well to first clean up its act in the Midvaal and other areas under its control.

    Like Deloris Doolittle wrote elsewhere ‘responsibility’ is just a word to the DA!

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 11, 2011 at 8:44 am

    If you were PdV you would not have an IQ under 100.

  • Brett Nortje

    Interesting, my dear Maggs, how supporters of the ANC have expanded the public protector’s finding that there was maladministration in the Midvaal Municipality to evidence of fraud and corruption.

    Of course, it is hard to find anyone capable of truthfulness in the ANC.

    But one wonders what is next from the DA, now that its members are conducting themselves like members of the ANC.
    DA MECs leaving the scene of an accident in which someone was seriously injured?

  • ozoneblue

    ozoneblue says:
    November 11, 2011 at 8:44 am

    You have not posted a single rational reply to any poster in here. When you don’t know how to respond you simply post some more cut-and-paste OT bs. You clearly never contribute to blogs like this one, you use them as a platform for spamming.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 11, 2011 at 9:20 am

    You have not posted a single rational reply to any poster in here. When you don’t know how to respond you simply post some more cut-and-paste OT bs. You clearly never contribute to blogs like this one, you use them as a platform for spamming.

  • Brett Nortje

    ozoneblue says:
    November 11, 2011 at 9:39 am

    LOL!

    Listen, if you have that dictionary that I told you to bring handy look up the difference between a fact and an opinion.

  • ozoneblue

    Brett Nortje says:
    November 11, 2011 at 9:57 am

    And how is the word “spammer” defined in your HAT?

    “Vertraagde irriterende poephol met ‘n sleutelbord en Internet toegang”

  • Brett Nortje

    My bad! I did not make myself clear. I wanted you to get an OED.

  • https://twitter.com/#!/thisbebaer Baer

    OB

    ‘but what is their language policy?’

    That’s not pertinent to the above post …? Correct me if I’m wrong.

  • Etienne van Zyl

    @Pierre de Vos

    It is refreshing to read such a straightforward overview of the scope and limits of constitutional protection viv-a-vis so-called minority languages. It emerges rather starkly that the scope is narrow and the limitations extensive.

    One is tempted to say: if only the “taalbulle” would get it! It is clear, however, not only from the reaction here to your blog, but in the broader discussion on the matter, that short of having things precisely their way, the “taalbulle” are simply not interested.

    At a certain level, the whole language debate at Stellenbosch is a red herring. Whether by design or not, Stellenbosch seems to have successfully sold the idea to itself and others that transformation at the university is crucially dependent on language policy. The reality is that there is a far more formidable barrier to entry at Stellenbosch than language, namely the cost of studying there.

    Cost barriers at Stellenbosch are not in the first instance the academic fees, but residential and transport costs. Hostel accommodation is limited, so most students wishing to study at Stellenbosch have to incur private residential costs, which in Stellenbosch are horrendous. The usual alternative to full-time residence within university perimeters is travelling from less expensive adjoining areas. Due to its geography and location, there is limited opportunity for this in Stellenbosch.

    If and when these barriers to access are sorted out, the language issue will be resolved soon enough thereafter through pressure of student requirements, whatever they turn out to be. Realistically, this is not likely to happen for quite some time, and Stellenbosch will remain an anomaly on the South African university scene.

    For now, Stellenbosch is the perfect example of a de facto private niche in public space through the dynamics of market forces. Whether that is a tenable future remains to be seen. In the interim, it is in my opinion counterproductive to become involved in tardy debates on language policy, insofar as this will tend to perpetuate the myth, and the smokescreen industry surrounding it, that transformation at Stellenbosch depends on language policy.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Russian Revolution

    “Man .. Beautiful .. Superb”

    Russian Revolution, are you referring to the blog in general, or to Brett’s contributions in particular?

  • Brett Nortje

    Might be Khoisan OBS.

    I must say, those accusations about Maggs’ Verwoerdian thinking and racism had me chuckling so hard Henrietta was laughing as well.

    Haven’t I said Maggs is a racist? Many, many times?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ Brett

    “accusations about Maggs’ Verwoerdian thinking and racism had me chuckling so hard Henrietta was laughing as well”

    Funny you should say that, Brett; my chortles woke Matilda from a long sleep, though not for long. But for me, Maggs is less like Verwoerd and more like General J.B.M. Hertzog. I say that because Verwoerd, although a twisted soul, was also a bona fida genius.

    Thanks.

  • Brett Nortje

    Yes, when you put it like that Maggs has to be seen more like a Curly.

    Or Larry. Or Mo.

  • Johann von Karajan

    As a German who often visits South Africa I am shocked that a person with a legal background (who refers to the constititution in his blog) can resort to such cheap and blatant stereotypes! The fast majority of Afrikaans speakers I know do not fit his Huisgenoot and Rapport stereotypes. We have made many mistakes in the past, but Mr. de Vos could certainly learn in Germany what a constitution really means. I suggest that he reads the books of Udo di Fabio than he will realize how primitive it is to stereotype people like that.

  • Johann von Karajan

    By the way Udo di Fabio is a real constitutional lawyer unlike Mr. de Vos…

  • Pierre De Vos

    Udo di Fabio is a neo-conservative, who rails against the welfare state and propagates the virtues of religion and nationalism. Not my kind of academic (or judge).

  • Johann von Karajan

    He is not a typical neo-conservative and is in favour of patriotism not nationalism. He is in favour of a smaller welfare state but not against the concept.

    However, I object that you stereotype Afrikaans speakers who want their language to survive as academic language. And that in the same article in which you complain about peoply stereotyping others (hensoppers, etc.).

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 14, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Hey Johann,

    “By the way Udo di Fabio is a real constitutional lawyer unlike Mr. de Vos…”

    Ja né – Mr de Vos is a fake. Here, in our country, we have a term for such fakes. Maybe you know it – FONGKONG.

    Anyway this Udo oke is impressive. It seems that he believes that people are made in god’s image (but it has to be the Christian version of god). Is that true? Is he related to our Chief Justice? Does he want to buy anointing oil which has proven to work?

    Germany certainly has a lot to teach us South Africans.

    Is it still ok for German business people to bribe people in foreign countries?

    There are lots of rumours about German having bribed people to get their weapons of war in our country and Saudi Arabia at the very least. Is it true? What does Udo have to say about that?

    p.s. We think that freedom is, er, freedom. What does Udo think?

    p.p.s. re “Mr. de Vos could certainly learn in Germany what a constitution really means”. That sound lekker né. Will Germany consider franchising their constitution? Our country is very interested in a real constitution. And we will also send all our people to Germany to learn about it. Can you organise this?

  • Johann von Karajan

    I started my sentence saying that we had made many mistakes in the past. One can also learn a lot from South Africa. However, I cannot imagine any respected legal professor (left or right) in Germany stereotyping a group of people in such a way as Mr. De Vos does it. I find it unfitting for a person with a legal background. True, Mr. Di Fabio is a conservative. Until 1995 it was indeed not illegal to bribe people in foreign countries. However, today it is a crime. I am also against selling weapons to Saudi Arabia. Especially a conservative (not a neo-conservative) with Christian values will reject that and not because Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country, but because the regime there might use the weapons against its own people.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 14, 2011 at 14:24 pm

    Hey Johann,

    “I am also against selling weapons to Saudi Arabia”. Interesting. I had hoped that the abhorrence would have been towards the corruption (which Tony Blair had managed to have swept under the carpet) and not to selling the weapons.

    But do tell where in the blog it is that you find the “stereotyping a group of people”.

  • Johann von Karajan

    I also think that South Africans know what freedom is. However, I don’t think the ANC knows that. They supported Colonel Gaddafi when it was already known that he killed and tortured the opposition.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 14, 2011 at 14:34 pm

    LOL Johann,

    “However, I don’t think the ANC knows that.”

    If you were South African another response would have been appropriate.

    But since you’re a guest in our wonderful country (it helps too that you frequently bring us €s) let’s say that it seems German TV does not do justice to our politics.

  • Johann von Karajan

    I really love South Africa. Perhaps I am not well informed but it is troubling me that a liberation movement (who fought for a righteous cause: the end of Apartheid) can support Gaddafi. Perhaps it is not really the case and I am only hearing it from one side…

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Johann

    So the German public wanted Papandrea (Greek PM) to resign?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 14, 2011 at 14:43 pm

    Johann,

    Where did you pick up that the ANC led government supported Gaddafi?

    South Africa supported UN Resolution 1973. And all the then Libyan Government’s assets in SA was frozen.

    What we did say is that perhaps another differently considered approach may have resulted in less bloodshed.

    It was the ANC led government which put paid to Brother leader’s ambitions of becoming King of Kings and leader of the United States of Africa.

    But that’s another discussion.

    Do say where Professor FongKong in his blog stereotypes a group of people.

  • Gwebecimele

    @ Johann

    I see the German public and government are singing from the same hym book.

    http://www.tnr.com/article/world/96287/germany-euro-crisis-merkel

  • Pierre De Vos

    Johann von Karajan, with respect, you read stereotyping where there is none. I am criticising people with a specific political agenda with which I disagree and which I think is deeply immoral and disrespectful of the human dignity of others. Doing that is not stereotyping. I do not claim all Afrikaners are like the people I criticise. I am attacking a certain political position. You might disagree with my view (which is your right) but calling this stereotyping is only feasible if you believe that I have no right to criticise those you happen to agree with and whose politics you share. If, for argument’s sake, I was dealing with the Second World War and had made some disparaging remarks about Nazi’s, only a fool would have argued that I am stereotyping the poor and wrongly vilified Nazi’s. Similar rules apply here. The fact that you cannot see this makes me worried about the moral universe in which you live.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maestro von Karajan

    @ “[ANC] supported Colonel Gaddafi when it was already known that he killed and tortured the opposition.”

    Perhaps you are not aware that Colonel Gaddafi was, in the words of President Mandela, a “true African revolutionary.” He has long stood as a bulwark against U.S./Zionist IMPERIALISM in Africa. (He wanted a “United States OF Africa,” not the United States IN Africa.) The Colonel generously supported our struggle in South Africa. We do not turn our backs on our friends. I demand that Zuma apologise for the unfortunate mistake when our Security Council ambassador was duped by manipulative U.S. ambassador Susan Rice into voting in favour of Resolution 1973 authorising NATO to begin its merciless aerial bombardment of the Libyan people!

    Thanks.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Maggs

    The SA government’s position were indefensible throughout. Before the Arab spring, they were chums with Gaddafi, making it look like they support a dictator. Then, when the Libyans started to revolt, they supported UN Resolution 1973, thereby making it look like they supported regime change by an arial bombing campaign, and making it look like their foreign policy is being determined from London.
    And finally they refused to recognise the rebel led government in Libya, as if that would make any difference to anything.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs, as you know, after our confused ambassador was pressured into accidentally supporting NATO aggression, Zuma supported the AU “Roadmap.” If that had been given a chance, there would have been peaceful negotiation amongst ALL of the people of Libya, and there could have been a GOVERNMENT OF NATIONAL UNITY, wherunder which the Colonel and his seven peace-loving sons would have jointly ruled Libya with the RATS and ISLAMIST AL QUADA EXTREMISTS whom NATO and the ZIONISTS have now installed in Tripoli. Am I right?

  • Johann von Karajan

    Germany did not support the bombing of Libya. However, we did support the just cause of the Libyan Liberation Movement. Gaddafi ordered the killing of other people. Therefore his (correct) support of the ANC is no reason to excuse what he had done to his country from 1969.

    @Pierre de Vos: The problem I have with your argument is that you do place the Afrikaners who are complaining in a certain corner. In my (limited) experience of South Africa the wealthy white people you are describing (“sitting next to their swimming pool”) are mostly English speaking. The Afrikaners who have my support are lower middle class people who simply want to be able to study in their own language.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    alleman
    November 14, 2011 at 15:32 pm

    Hey Alleman,

    We’re chums with nearly everyone and anyone.

    Mark Thatcher, Hansie Cronje, Shabir Shaik, god, angels and a host of others.

    Then President Mandela even had tea with Betsie Verwoerd and on her death :

    ”She and her husband are part of South Africa’s history even though we sharply condemned their policies,” Mr. Mandela said in the statement.

    The saying is ‘Keep your friends close and your better friends even closer’.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Thanks for clarifying this Maggs. So it is this chumminess that caused you to support the bombing of Libya?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder
    November 14, 2011 at 15:32 pm

    Dworky

    “confused ambassador”

    I think you’re mixing up the ambassador and Minister of Agriculture, the one who is not a lesbian and who sleeps in her car with three children.

    She’s confused cos she thought the R5000 per night quote from the B&B was for her, her friend, the nanny and two children to use the B&Bs public restrooms, while they waited for Public Works to chase away the mosquitoes. It was not – the quote was in fact for fungicides to prevent them from catching AIDS while in the shower.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 14, 2011 at 15:40 pm

    Hey Johann,

    Please do tell where the stereotyping is in the blog.

    Us not so smart South Africans can learn a lot from the wisdom of the Germans – and as you can see we’re not really onto the Prof Fongkong and his nuances.

    So please share – let’s expose him for all to see.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    alleman
    November 14, 2011 at 15:54 pm

    Hey Alleman,

    “So it is this chumminess that caused you to support the bombing of Libya?”

    I deny supporting the bombing of Libya, rather I specifically said that we must only whack the women, children and innocents. There is nothing more delightful than to see little kids with bits of flesh hanging where limbs used to be or half their heads blown out (as log as they have the other half it’s ok).

    Since we all hated Brother Leader all his country folk were fair game for the non-nuke nukes!

    Damn I wish the ‘allied forces’ had the presence of mind to make 3D movies of that. It will be a block buster.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    I don’t think Maggs, Brett or Mikhail have a future in comedy – maybe you should all just say directly what you mean.
    Brett, however, could make it as a professional spammer

  • Brett Nortje

    Thank you!

    Want to share what led you to that conclusion, or are is it just that you sense popular support slipping away?

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    @ alleman

    I have no aspirations to do comedy. I aim only to speak truth to Power.

  • Mikhail Dworkin Fassbinder

    Maggs is right.

    I support the development of “smart” weapons, viz, those which kill only the guilty, viz the terrified teenagers that Col Ghaddafi enlisted into his army.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Eish,

    You three have digressed.

    Johann von Karajan was about to tell us all about democracy.

    And he was to unravel the FAKE that the Nihilist Guy is too.

    Mainly we were about to start a Admirers of Udo Di Fabio Movement.

    p.s. Johann, ignore these three rascals and tell us about the stereotyping. Make some up if you cannot find it easily enough in the blog.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Q: Why are there not enough ant-racists in the Afrikaans community?
    A: The ones who should be doing it (soos die dominee van die grondwet), are spending all their time impressing the English people, and working towards the anglification of South African public life.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    alleman
    November 14, 2011 at 20:38 pm

    Alleman,

    “Q: Why are there not enough ant-racists in the Afrikaans community?”

    Answer : Surprise, surprise – there are enough ant-racists in the Afrikaans community.

    In Orania Black Ants are unwelcome.

    Only White Ants are allowed there.

    As for Red Ants – eish. Those are totally not tolerated.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    anti!
    OK, I grant that Maggs might make it in comedy.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Q: Why do African languages have almost no official or educational role in South Africa despite being designated as ‘official’?

    A: One reason is that there are no/not enough ‘taalbulle’ for these languages.
    Another is that the English elites who hold the power have no intentions whatsoever for any other language to be official in any meaningful way.

  • Johann von Karajan

    I have answered the question about stereotyping. Unfortunately, Prof. De Vos ignores my remark that the people (“beside the swimming pool”) he describes are in my (limited) experience English speaking. He stereotypes ordinary lower middle class people who want to be educated in their own languages as reactionaries. See his paragraph:

    “And all this because you might have suggested that the Afrikaans taalstryders making a living out of whipping up anxiety and fear about the demise of the Afrikaans language are at best opportunistic exploiters making a fast buck out of the fear and misery of others and at worst just pining for the good old days of apartheid when they were in power and could stuff up the country all by themselves.”

  • Pierre De Vos

    Johann von Karajan, you seem to live in a world in which anyone who has expressed a strong opinion about the beliefs of a group of people (and what that may mean) is stereotyping that group and is therefore wrong or immoral – if that person do not share your ideological views. Let’s see if this works out well for you when I use another example: Say I write: “The members of the Gestapo and their supporters in the Nazi party, fearful of those who they could not understand and self-righteous and racist in the belief in their own superiority, embarked ohn a programme of mass murder.” You will then complain that I am stereotyping the poor Nazi’s. After all, some of them might have been very nice (for all I know they might have been your relatives) – as long as they did not have to see any Jews.

  • Brett Nortje

    How is that for birth-guilt – something Pierre believes in implicitly – Johann?

  • Johann von Karajan

    No, the Nazis all supported that. Therefore that is not stereotyping. However, implying that the Afrikaners who stand up for their language are “pining for the old days of Apartheid” is stereotyping. Don’t you think that a 20-year old Afrikaans speaker can stand up for his language without wanting Apartheid back?

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    Johann von Karajan
    November 15, 2011 at 14:24 pm

    Hey Johann,

    “Don’t you think that a 20-year old Afrikaans speaker can stand up for his language without wanting Apartheid back?”

    Standing up for “his language” may well be a good thing. Our Constitution protects it too.

    Denying others from a national facility is another matter entirely.

    Claiming language exclusivity is in effect denying others from accessing the university.

    You still have not clearly illustrated the stereotyping that you seem annoyed about. At best you draw reference, that is not generalised, to some annoying types.

    Perhaps there is something which you see that I miss – humour me and point it out.

  • John X

    Pierre.
    Waar kom hierdie histerie van jou vandaan oor mense wat die volste reg het om hulle saak te stel? Jou UK is ‘n sprekende voorbeeld van uitsluiting van ander tale. Jy maak jou naam krater.
    Johann. Don’t try and argue with “intellectuals” like Maggs and Peertjie. You are wasting your time. It seems that Pierre is on his own mission and Maggs has nothing else to spend his time on.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    John X
    November 15, 2011 at 16:23 pm

    Hey wanker,

    Who died and appointed you custodian of my time???

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Q: Has there ever been an elite in power who saw what they were doing as wrong?
    A: No

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    alleman
    November 16, 2011 at 1:43 am

    Hey Alleman,

    What about the other Mikhail?

    The nice one.

  • http://alleman.wordpress.com alleman

    Maggs, Mikhail Gorbachev was a good individual, but he did not constitute a political class on his own.
    IIRC, he seemed to do what was needed at the time, but when his actions no longer suited the elite, they got rid of him.

  • Maggs Naidu – maggsnaidu@hotmail.com

    alleman
    November 16, 2011 at 13:09 pm

    Alleman,

    “but he did not constitute a political class on his own.”

    Hmmm!

    Ok.

    Then what about the DA in Midvaal?

    And what about COPE, eh?

    Lekota, Ngonyama, Mlambo-Ngcuka and three others (who did not join the struggle to be poor) set out on the road less travelled to defend the constitution.

  • Jan Rap

    Henri, jy vra (8 November) of ‘n regstesis in Xhosa geskryf kan wees en wie dit gaan lees. Natuurlik kan dit in Xhosa geskryf wees en ek sou reken so’n tesis sou toepassing is SA hê en aangesien daar baie Xhosas in SA is, sal baie mense dit kan lees. Om die waarheid te sê, aangesien Xhosa een van die amptelike tale is, sal ALMAL in SA dit kan lees; die wat nie Xhosa kan lees nie sal die Afrikaanse, Venda-, Sotho-, Engelse ens vertalings lees.
    ENIGE tesis kan in ENIGE taal op aarde geskryf wees en ENIGIEMAND op aarde kan toegang daartoe hê. Marco Polo en die Sjinese het nie in Engels onderhandel nie (Nederlands miskien).

  • Thomas

    Belachelijk en te gek voor woorden om altijd maar alles te willen verengelsen. Maak van Zuid-Afrika eens echt een meertalig land. Geef elke bevolkingsgroep eigen scholen en universiteiten, telkens met de moedertaal als instructietaal. Uiteraard moeten Zoeloe-sprekers toegang hebben tot Afrikaanse scholen, en omgekeerd ook.

    Laat iedereen Engels als TWEEDE taal leren, geen probleem. Maar laat alstublieft iedereen zijn wie hij is. Dat is pas rijkdom. Stop met alle Zuid-Afriakaanse “webwerfe” steevast in “English only” te presenteren. Geef nu eindelijk eens voorrang aan de talen waarin de bevolking vreugde en verdriet ervaart? Met name: Afrikaans, Zoeloe, Xhosa, enzovoort !

    Schaf Engels als officiële taal af en toon aan dat Zuid-Afrika de regenboognatie kan zijn zonder iemand tot verengelsing te dwingen. Waarom zijn Zuid-Afrika en Namibiê de enige landen ter wereld die meer dan 85% van hun bloedeigen volk willen vervreemden? Denken Hongarije, Finland of Albanië er soms aan om Engels “amptelike taal” van hun land maken omdat dat zogenaamd beter zou zijn? Vergeet het maar … die hebben nog voeling met hun land. De huidige Zuid-Afrikaanse regering kennelijk niet.

    Stem het schoolsysteem en de overheid af op de WERKELIJKHEID !

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