A reader ask quite correctly what else President Thabo Mbeki could have done to make a difference to the Zimbabwean crisis. Supporters of the President (Khosi, you there?) and even staff I have spoken to who work in the President’s office have argued quite forcefully that it would not have helped for President Mbeki to criticise President Mugabe because that would merely have alienated him and would have diminished South Africa’s influence over the tyrant.
They also argue that the only way to get rid of Mugabe would be through a negotiated settlement because as we have seen he will not allow the MDC to govern Zimbabwe on its own and will most probably allow a coup rather than allow people he see as stooges of Britain to govern the country.
Of course we have to remember that the two previous elections were declared credible and mostly free by South African observers (following the Mbeki line), despite the fact that these were conducted in an atmosphere of fear and violence and according to electoral rules that clearly allowed for the massaging of the results in favour of Mugabe. This suggests that the Mbeki ANC would have done and said almost anything to ensure that Mugabe was not humiliated or criticised in any way.
Supporters of Mbeki would say that this strategy – while appearing to be callous and unprincipled – had actually finally paid off in 2008 because the mediation process led by our President has resulted in a more accommodating process and led to Mugabe making several concession which made the election less unfair. While not free and fair, the most recent elections therefore gave an opening to the opposition which allowed it to win the election.
There are at least two problems with these arguments.
First, South Africa is supposed to be a constitutional state based on the Rule of Law and a respect for human rights and the government police is supposedly to promote respect for human rights across Africa and to foster good governance in Africa through Nepad and the African Peer Review mechanism.
The failure of the government to forcefully criticise even the most flagrant human rights abuses and the stealing of two previous elections by Mugabe, suggests that South Africa is a silent or not so silent supporter of a tyrant and thus makes a mockery of the supposed leadership of our President and our country on human rights issues. This undermines our standing in the world and among right thinking people all across Africa. It is a matter of credibility: if one mollycoddles a tyrant it is hard to be taken seriously when making lofty statements about good governance and respect for human rights in other parts of Africa or the rest of the world (like in the USA or Iraq).
Our President has lost all credibility by holding hands with a person who has lost an election and now refuses to accept this reality and is using his military to terrorise the population who had the audacity to vote for the opposition.
Second, (and much worse) the South African governments’ silence (sold as quiet diplomacy) has actually helped to prop up Mugabe and thus helps him to stay in power. The apartheid government was an evil one – much like Mugabe – but gave up power after sustained attack by the international community and after being isolated by even its closest friends like the USA and the UK. South Africa could place serious diplomatic and economic pressure on Mugabe to change but has failed to do so. This makes our government complicit in the murder and torture of thousands of Zimbawean citizens and the ruining of the economy in that country.
Thus South Africa’s actions have helped to support a tyrant in power and have made it potentially more (not less) difficult to get rid of him. As long as President Mugabe thinks that South Africa is on his side and will silently go along with any action he might think necessary to stay in power, there will be no incentive to adhere to African Union principles.
If South Africa had spoke out and had actually threatened Mugabe with economic sanctions and (for him probably more important) with ostracisation in SADEC, South Africa might have been able to achieve more. Tyrants only act in their own self-interest and South Africa’s tacit support for Mugabe (because that is what quiet diplomacy really is) have sent a signal to Mugabe that it is not in his interest to go quietly.
What was and is needed is a carrot and stick method. Unfortunately, President Mbeki is all carrot and no stick. This make him (and by implication all who voted for him) complicit in the gross human rights abuses perpetrated by the Mugabe regime. I really do not know how hsleeps at night with this on his conscience. But then again, that assumes that he has a conscience.
Do you Professor Pierre de Vos, have a concience and sleep peacefully at night on a bed that is stuffed with a perpetual legacy of apartheid and colonialism.
How is that in any way relevant?
Do you really suppose that the Prof is somehow directly responsible for colonialism and apartheid? The only reason they are perpetual is because Africans cannot let go of them. Why do you not bother to at least attempt a rebuttal of the entry, rather than strawmanning?
True Frank but also remember Pierre *is* an African himself.
Frank,
People who live in glass houses should never throw stones. I just do not think that Pierre has the right to question the Presidents conscience, at least not in this context. Thabo Mbeki is not responsible for Zimbabwe and I see no benefit for him in the situation in that country. Professor Pierre de Vos is not responsible for apartheid but he has and continues to benefit from it. Well you decide for yourself who is more culpable. In fact, knowing Pierre as I do on this blog, he will disagree with your statement.
You then say: “The only reason they are perpetual is because Africans cannot let go of them. ”
Have you seen the conditions that Africans live in, in their own rich continent? I suppose that , according to you, apartheid and colonialism had nothing to do with it. In fact this statement does not deserve further engagement.
To all Africans (including Pierre)
To resolve African problems, especially Zimbabwe, we need to filter off Western influences. It is Western influences that got us into this mess and they cannot be part of the solution because as David Bullard illustrated, the Western forces have a vested interest in perpetuating the status quo.
Pierre,
I do not think we should compare our leaders to mindless donkeys when all they are trying to do is to further liberate us.
The Zimbawean issue to my mind is not about colonialism – its about a liberation hero turned tyrant who is quietly supported by South Africa. To say its about colonialism just because Britain and the UK also criticises Mugabe is to become a prisoner of the Western paradigm instead of being liberated from it.Steve Biko would not have taken a position merely because that position was the opposite of the UK and the USA because he would have understood that Africans must stop worrying so much about what the white Westerners say and do and liberate themselves from their tyrants. The thing is President Mbeki CAN do something about Zimbabwe and he DOES do something but I bitterly disagree with his approach as I think it is influenced by his sympathy for President Mugabe instead of a sympathy for human rights and the marginalised and oppressed people of Zimbabwe. Maybe he thinks he is strategic on this, but at some point strategy becomes morality and this for me is it. (And of course I can do something about the legacy of apartheid and should try and do something about it if I can otherwise I would not be attempting to live an ethical life…..)
Pierre,
Thanks for a balanced response.
Questions still remain. Do you honestly think that Africans are not in danger of being re-colonised, albeit, in more subtle was? Is David Bullard really isolated in his school of thought? Should Africans forget the past 400 years and focus squarly in the past 8.
For me, something is very wrong in Zimbabwe. Mugabe is only doing the right things the wrong way. The dilemma here, for us Africans, is that there may exist no better way at our disposal. Its a terribly bitter medicine that has to be taken.
Khosi -
Please read the following quote from an article at http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/peter_thatchell/2008/04/zims_bad_neighbour.html
“Mbeki cannot feign ignorance. Mugabe’s human rights abuses stretch back many years. The writing was already on the wall in the mid-1980s, when Mugabe’s men slaughtered 20,000 civilians in Matabeleland. This is the equivalent of a Sharpeville massacre every day for over nine months. Yet Thabo Mbeki and most other top ANC leaders said nothing about this bloodfest – and nothing about the many subsequent murders by Zanu-PF.”
When the 20,000 (black) people were slaughtered in Matabeleland in the 80s, was Robert Mugabne still trying to liberate Zim from the effects of colonialisation? Hogwash! Moreover, to think or suggest that Morgan Tsvangirai, who himself has been beaten up and jailed for his beloved country to free his people from the tyrant (Mugabe) is only a UK stooge in disguise; and, that he will allow (bring about) re-colonialization of Zim (as Mugabe is ranting and raving) is paranoid and sick – but then again, all tyrants in history have been rather paranoid. Even African states with a longer history of freedom from colonialization have produced such paranoid tyrants, who thought it their duty to murder and torture fellow africans just so they could remain in power, and lucratively so (e.g., Idi Amin; Charles Taylor – to name but two). I must agree with Nick’s one response on the previous post, it is not colonialization and the West that has brought Zim to its knees, it is Mugabe himself, and he didn’t need much help from the West or anybody else. And I must agree with Prof De Vos, this whole thing is not about colonialization (or apartheid, or black and white), it is about a liberator who has gorged himself in the nice secure feeling that power brings, who has turned tyrant against his own people, just to keep up his style of living. As far as Thabo Mbeki’s silent diplomacy is cooncerned, I can do no better than to quote from a Bob Dylan song: “How many times, can a man turn his head, and prentend that he just doesn’t see? … The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind.”
Faceless Rat,
And your point is…..?
Khosi, I think all of us in the developing world have been recolonised by the West to some degree or another because we listen to Western music (Madonna; Fifty Cents; Mary J Blige), our governments go to Western established institutions like the World Bank and the IMF and WHO for advice and guidance and money, we agree to international trade deals that favour the rich nations (the European Union gives more money in order to subsidise cows in Europe than it does to development Aid in Africa – which goes to show what they think about poor people) etc. But clever tyrants can use this reality to garner sympathy and that is exactly what Mugabe has done. It does not make him a hero though – merely a clever tyrant who knows how to exploit peoples resentments against Western Imperialism to his own ends. I passionately believe that one way to liberate our minds as Africans from the poison of “Western superiority”, is to worry less about what the West say and want and more about what our own people need and demand.
Pierre
hence i said filter away the West then we will find solutions.
But your argument about Aid and international banks and agreements is flawed. It is the money taken from the African natural resources that partly fund these organisations anyway. In fact, only a fraction of expropriated African wealth comes back in Aid. Our government go there because its the only way available for Africans to get crumbs from their own wealth.
What is even worse is that Africans pay interest on this money that should be their. Makes my heart sore.
Please stop telling us that colonialism is not an issue.
Khosi
Two tings:
One: Ok so when you what to chase the west out of Africa should they take all their aid in fighting disease and hunger with them or do you reckon that you are in some way intitled to have your cake and eat it. We live in a global society and their is no way getting around this. No country or continant will survive in isolation. So instead of fighting the western monetary wheel Africa should use it to its advantage. I once read a letter in a newspaper written by an African man complaining that the Sandton City shopping centre was disriminating against African people as you could not buy any traditional african food there. The overwhelming resopnse to is letter was then why does he not open a stall himself instead of just complaining. In South Africa today there is so many oppertunities for people from a previously disdvantaged background to advance himself economically but it does not come free. There is no such thing as being entitled to anything. Africa is entitled to their riches, I agree with you. But to get the riches back Africa will have to work for it and not just demand it. It is probably unfair that many of Africa’s mines are in the hands of the West and that if Africa wants these mines back, it will have to buy it back. But the truth is that there is simply no other way. And as soon as Africans realise this and get on with it true liberation will follow. Oppertunities and liberation comes with hard work and responsibilities, not from sitting back and demanding (or practising quite diplomacy).
Two: Please explain to me what killing 20 000 African Zimbabweans in the 80’s had to do with the liberation struggle? And what torturing African Zimbabweans now have to do with liberation? And what delaying the release of the election results have to do with liberation? I hope you can convince me that all these atrocities are for the good cause of liberation.
Delia, you could not have put it any better. The sad reality about it all is that the moment one says the statements that you have just eluded too; I can tell you positively the response you will receive, within Africa (and Black people). It’s like Africa is the only continent that was (is) exploited and that the world has to be indebted to it and ‘we’ (black people) are this super innocent race that has done no wrong. For instance if the west co-operates with an African dictator, it is propping up an African tyrant, if it opposes the dictator, it is guilty of imposing western ideas of democracy on Africa, if it does nothing at all, it is guilty of ignoring the country. If the west acts, it is wrong, if it doesn’t act it is wrong, if it half acts it is wrong for not acting enough and wrong for acting at all. Mugabe is wrong, irrespective of the past history of colonialism. Even in African culture the sanctity of life is scarred, we do not condone any killing what so ever, they is never any honour when some oppressive his/her people. Mbeki should have stated this on the onset. It may have been words, but most of all it would have been the right a start. It about time he was reminded what period he is living in!
Both Delia and Mqo.
You people should move away from having a view and then arguing without accepting detours from that view or attentitively listening to other views.
Nobody has said that Zimbabwe is peachy. In fact I even wrote this yesterday :-
“For me, something is very wrong in Zimbabwe.”
Nobody has said chase out the West. I said:
“we need to filter off Western influences”.
But imagine a thief that comes and steals your father’s home and then later your brothers tell you that you need to work hard so that you can pay the thief to get your father’s home back. What happened and continues to happen to Africans is glorified thuggery. And I cannot understand why when Africans ask for what is rightfully theirs; they are called lazy and irresponsible.
The problem is that you people are blindly restricting the problems in Zimbabwe to the past 8 years. Africans a perfectly capable of exercising their democratic rights through the ballot on their own. It happened in Polokwane, it happened in Zambia, Madagascar, Kenya(to an extent), and YES it looks like that it has happened in Zimbabwe. In Zimbabwe, however, you had a participant that had a clear backing from the colonizers of that country.
Earlier I spoke of a ‘terribly bitter medicine’ that needs to be taken. My question to you fellow Africans is, should our leaders allow for the re-colonialization of our continent through the use of the very democratic and moral values we ALL want for all of Africa? Or should they say Que serra, serra?
Africans we need to choose a better medicine.
khosi your levels of ’self bejammering’ is astounding.
What is clear is that one thing that is colonised is your mind.
You know Khosi the weird thing is that the Afrikaner Nationalists used very similar rhetoric to yours. Blaming colonising Britian for jumping on the country for its resources.
And like you, they had a very good point. But here the similarity ends.
For a start, talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.
General Hertzog had a missionary zeal to build South African industry so that we do not have to export all our resources, as the country did under the Sappe.
By 1950 the size of our industrial base compared favourably with China.
Iscor, Sasol, ABSA (Volkskas – the poeple’s bank), Saambou, Armscor etc are all Nationalist inspired projects, so that this country is not beholden to the ‘colonisers’. South Africa was nearly self sufficient in all areas.
What has happened since this ANC has come to power? They have allowed our biggest companies to list on the London stock exchange.
Would the Nationalists have allowed that? And what did Old Mutual, Anglo do? They transferred their capital out of the country to Britain.
Local industry, once nurtured has been left to wilt. We have seen thousands of jobs lost in last couple of years.
Another example. South Africa is opening the doors to foreign police services during the 2010 world cup. Because we cant police our own country anymore.
Take another example. Ghana and Malaysia. Both countries got independence at the same time, and their economies were similarly sized. Both countries claimed to be fiercely anti-colonial.
Today Malaysia’s economy is several times that of Ghana, $186,482 Billion to Ghana’s $14,000 billion. In fact Malaysia’s economy is catching up with our own and at the current rates of growth might well over take ours in the next decade.
And guess what, the world and the West is taking Malaysia very seriously. In fact Malaysia is one of the most strident and effective voices against the West
Ah you might say, but its not just money that matters. What about culture. Well ok fine. But explain to me why our football teams have names like Bloemfontein Celtic, or Ajax Cape Town, and why the football league is called the Premier League?
To me as an Afrikaner it seems that black South Africa goes out of its way to mimic British culture.
Most of the black elite reads the “Sunday Times” on Sundays. Why don’t they read a paper with an African name?! Why do they have to be black Englishmen? Or Afrosaxons as Dan Roodt prefers to say. Don’t you have pride in your heritage?
You need a different muti thats for sure.
Wessel,
“Iscor, Sasol, ABSA (Volkskas – the poeple’s bank), Saambou, Armscor etc”
These companies were created to sustain the apartheid machinery. Please get your facts straight.
The rest of your input is just nostalgic banter from someone who misses the past and possibly wants it back. Therefore proving my point about the drive to re-colonise our continent.
Hola bafethu, ja ne is waar. What immediately comes to mind as far as it concerns me is the inadeqaucies of amongst others global documents, continental documents, etc, relating to the regulation of human rights abuses. If one looks across Africa and to a larger extent the globe, public international affairs are going from bad to worse. Then you have the likes of Mbeki that can (even if only in Zimbabwe) change things for the better but no the Zimbabwean situation is manageable. By the way how did the High Court get it right to allow for the votes to re-counted, whereas rules are transparent in stating such should take place within 48 hours, oh i forgot the situation in Zim is managable. Apparently the results of the re-count might only be available next year if any(that is my inference of the phrase indefinite). Again, why should we cause such a fuzz the situation is manageable. By the way can anybody perhaps tell me whether the results of the presidential votes h as been revealed as yet. Ek praar so baie , beter vir my ek my mkhuku regmaak, dit lyk na n nat winter wat aan die kom is. PEACE MZANZI
khosi by your own standards that was a very limp response.
Statements like ’someone who misses the past and possibly wants it back’, might work on the likes ‘ek is jammer dat ek leef’ Pierre but it wont on me.
Before you assume any further and let me spare you the trouble and I will spell out to you what I miss:
* A goverment that at least feels responsible and beholden to its own constituency;
* Being regarded as a Comrade by black South Africans for criticizing injustice instead of being seen as a colonizer for criticizing injustice;
* Where progressive whites like Helena Dolny and Dennis Davies are valued for the contribution they can make to this country instead of being ostricised for criticising black apartheid stooges;
* Public spaces where black and white can mix. Like Hillbrow and Yeoville. And I’m sorry, but the boardroom of Siemens or marbled hallways of Sandton City don’t count;
* Where the local and foreign press swooped on xenephobic killing of foreigners;
* The idea that if we changed bad laws we could make society a better place;
* Believing that black South Africa really cared for ubuntu instead of bling.
All these things I really miss.
Wessels,
Your response is vintage “Free the natives but we will decide their future for them”
In the previous post, Khosi assumed that I held the view that “Afrocentric views are absurd and not worthy when pitted against Eurocentric ones”. With respect, he is quite wrong. We are all of us in Africa here, and Africans are running the show. Khosi’s viewpoint, by all accounts, is the predominant one among black South Africans. When black South Africans decide, say, that ARVs are a European invention and should therefore be rejected in favour of African remedies, that’s the way it’s gonna be, and whites should try to understand that, no matter how bitterly they disagree. If black people decide that Zimbabweans should find an African solution to their problems, we have to accept that as well. Who are we of European descent that we should forever criticize African people’s world views? Why do we insist on talking past each other? What if we’ve got it all wrong? What if it turns out that we don’t, after all, have a monopoly on wisdom?
That said, I do fear that Africans are not paying attention to what is about to happen now, which is their re-colonization by China. Personally, I would rather be colonized by Europeans than by the Chinese, but then perhaps I’m a tad biased.
Thank you, Clara. At last, HONESTY.
Clara is the great feebleness now affecting you too? You seem to be saying (contradicting your other contributions) that there are black views on certain key issues – and that as white people we may not argue against these. And the examples you mention are Mbekist views, not majority views.
There is no black hive mind – as you usually know.
We know from things like Mbeki’s support of Zanu-PF, and the history of Zanu-PF that some would like to cow white people to silence. Instead, they should hear and take account of our opinions – that’s the way it’s gonna be. Mbekists and black Nats will have to accept that, because in some cases some of our views are in fact aligned with the majority of the South African people.
Came across this very interesting take on Chinese ‘colonialists’
http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/brendanoneill/2008/04/24/bring-on-the-chinese/
Guys i am sure you would have noticed by now that i try to keep my contribution factaul yet relevant. However, this issue of race, etc, is so big i dont think we do realise it. All i can say it that as South Africans we should find a best workable solution to our infinite problems. Stop pointing the finger cause four is pointing back at you. Complaining, moaning and groaning is worsening the situation if anything. Government self is contributing tot his mess. Be proudly Mzanzi i dont think we are proud enough
Khosi – curious that it is now from China that Bob Mugabe so dearly wants to import arms (to oppress Zimbabwean africans, not to defend Zim’s borders or sovereignty). Like that Chinese curse wishes of us – we are living in interesting times indeed.
Khosi
In relation to the statement that ‘we..should move away from having a view and then arguing without accepting detours from that view or tentatively listening to other views’, maybe that should be the statement that you should be saying instead, to the distorted African ideology that is prevalent not only among (unfortunately) ordinary peoples of Africa, but also, it seems, to the African intellectuals such as your self. I can tell you personally, that I was at school in Zimbabwe when the land seizers’ occurred and believe me not for one second was it about gaining back ‘what was lost’ during colonisation but a vendetta to seize and maintain power at all costs. The fact that dear Bob is fighting against re-colonisation is a rhetoric that is all but similar to the one advocated for by the US to invade Iraqi. Like those who enthusially embraced and advocated for the war, similar are those like you, who believe that Mugabe is fighting against re-colonisation. No Khosi, I refuse to accept such a submission and believe me you would, if your saw a man been killed for having a different opinion and then for Mbeki to believe that they is no crisis, and then people like YOU to accept the lie been meted out by the government propaganda machine, is in all essence insensitive if not disgusting. While it is important that we debate such issues what is of importance are the lives of individuals. If the West are the only ones who seem to care, then to hell with Africa!
I have stated my case on this post, and I am done. As the Chinese would say, huí tóu jiàn 。.
Khosi – From you quote in the Mandarin language, it appears that your command of that language is quite superior. Would you care to translate for us Chinese illiterates? And, … don’t back off just because the fallacy of your argument has been pointed out?
Khosi, of course, is right. The globalised world is a big, busy, complicated place. Many of the old certainties have disappeared.
Fortunately, there remain two rules that, although not absolutely foolproof, offer reliable guidance in most situations:
1. Anything white people in general favour is BAD.
2. Anything the U.S. favours is VERY BAD.
Very sarcastic Michael – but good!
I don’t usually leave comments on this site but I felt compelled to say something. Mr van Rensburg, I found your mail, particularly on ‘things that you miss’, to be embittered, speculative, misguided and racially offensive. I found your words and generalized judgments to be quite unfortunate and I sincerely hope that at some stage you find it in yourself to become a better, less racially discriminatory person.
Professor de Vos, I am a fan of yours and enjoy your writing generally. I was disappointed and confused as to why those who voted for Mbeki are complicit in gross human rights abuses in Zimbabwe. Surely you didn’t mean what you said. If you did, then how far back should the complicity go? Should those who voted for Mandela be complicit in the abuses because they allowed the ANC to return to power? Should the majority of white people also be complicit because they allowed black people to vote through the referendum? Should those whites that didn’t take part in the revolution of South Africa also be complicit for negligently contributing to a situation (by omission) where Mr Mbeki ended up in a position in which he felt that he owed Mugabe some kind of tacit support for his help in liberating this country? I’m afraid it seems quite unfair to expect those people who voted for Mbeki to have the kind of clairvoyancy that you appear to have implicitly expected of them. Perhaps if the course of action that was chosen had been decided upon democratically then those members of the public would be more blameworthy.
I say all of this with the greatest respect. This is the first article of yours that I have read that I have found disappointing, and even then only in respect of the later parts. I hope that you respond.
MK, thank you for your thoughtful post. On reflection you might have a point and I might have gotten carried away in damning all who had voted for President Mbeki. Come to think of it, I once also voted for Mbeki so that makes me also complicit in this saga if I followed my own logic. Maybe it would be better and more helpful to focus on the present and the future and to ask what can South Africa do and why is not not doing more to ensure that the will of the people of Zimbabwe are respected. President Mbeki and his supporters argue they are doing everything they can and that what human rights supporters want will only backfire, while some of us think more pressure can be placed on Mugabe to isolate him in the region and to make him and his generals realise that if they stay in power despite being voted out, their own lives will become more miserable.
Thank you for your response Prof., I am quite thrilled to receive a reply especially in light of the fact that this post was originally put up some time ago. For the record, I do agree that it would be better to focus on the present and the future. The silence from South Africa’s side fills me with a sense of shame as a human being and as a South African.
In a previous comment to this thread, khosi says:
“Should Africans forget the past 400 years and focus squarly in the past 8.”
No, we need to consider the million/s of years since ‘man’ split from
apes in evolution, and accept that negroids, caucasoids & mongaloids have
different genes, which significantly effects their mental attributes.
BTW Bullard is yanking your chain. What’s his blog-adrs ?
——-
Anonymouse says:
“Mugabe’s men slaughtered 20,000 civilians in Matabeleland.
This is the equivalent of a Sharpeville massacre every day for
over nine months.”
Wow ! I appreciate such comparative figures.
IMO ‘Sharpville is a prime example of false history’ which justifies a thread
of it’s own.
——
Newsgroups: soc.culture.zimbabwe,za.politics
Subject: EU has learned since 70’s & thinks that Africa can too
Apparently the zimbabwe internet-news-group is deliberately being
spam-flooded. Apparently from China.
One is reminded of exposures some years ago, of Mugabe employing a well
known Canadian/Israeli professional information manipulator, to fabricate
evidence of treason against Morgan T. : Mugabe’s opponent.
It was interesting for me to hear on radio-Sweden how the Swedish-leftists
now admit that they allowed themselves to be deceived into praising the
Pol Pot regime, after their visit to Cambodia in the 70s.
Perhaps this influences their more realistic approach to Zimbabwe now ?
Of course the EU’s stance of not giving resources to the Mugabe looting
gang is correct. One wonders if the SADC supporters of Mugabe realise
the implications to the wider world, or if they just don’t care.
Like they just didn’t care about the HIV warnings which they got 25
years ago ?